Dilemma-- should I become Catholic in spite of postmodernism and liberalism in the church?

[Alex111]

I’m in a dilemma and would appreciate advice and/or information.

I’m in RCIA and considering becoming Roman Catholic, partly because I got disgusted by hearing blatant radical feminism and New Age fluff preached by the clergy at the Episcopal church I was attending (not to mention the national leader of the US Episcopal church). But I’ve become increasingly dismayed because the RCIA teachers, including the priest, are showing similar tendencies: they use the same annoying so-called “gender-inclusive language” to refer to God; last week one of the teachers referred to the “Sophia” passages in the bible as supposed evidence for a female God (as far as I know those passages are actually a poetic device personifying wisdom but not remotely referring to an actual god or part of the Godhead, and I spoke up in class and said so); also last week the same teacher said that you don’t have to agree with the church on everything, and specifically brought up abortion and said that you can be “pro-choice” and Catholic.

One of the big reasons I waited as long as I did to even consider officially becoming Catholic was that I used to be pro-abortion, and while I like a lot about the church I didn’t want to be a hypocrite. I’ve recently had a major change of heart regarding abortion, so it sort of annoys me to finally come to RCIA only to be told essentially that it doesn’t matter; that you can supposedly believe any kind of ultra-liberal fluff and still be Catholic.

I’m also disheartened by things like Catholic Campaign for Human Dignity supporting far-left causes (including until recently ACORN); the huge number of radical feminists in church leadership; and the fact that several national church organizations support Obamacare. (I’m glad the Stupak amendment passed, but it’s still an abomination that raises serious concerns about subsidiarity, euthanasia, and rationing.)

So, did I just happen to walk into the most liberal parish in the US? Is this an anomaly? Are there any conservative parishes in Portland Oregon? Is it just that the US church has a lot of heresy, but the Vatican is still true to tradition? Is Roman Catholicism still the faith of JRR Tolkien and GK Chesterton? Can I be politically conservative and still become Catholic? Is there any hope?

I’m really not trying to mean or snarky; I’m in a dilemma and have been for a while. I am very interested in being part of the Catholic faith…but I’m leaving the US Episcopal church in search of an ark of safety from postmodernism, feminism, crypto-Marxism, state-worship, etc… The Continuing Anglicans (the ones that follow the Affirmation of Saint Louis of 1977) seem to be much freer of these trends, but that’s because they recently split from the US church and from Canterbury, and not all Continuing Anglican churches are even in communion with each other. So, again, a dilemma.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

 

[Charbeau]

This quote by Frank Sheed, while not directly addressing commentary by layperson/teachers within the Church seems appropriate to post:

“We are not baptized into the hierarchy; do not receive the cardinals sacramentally; will not spend eternity in the beatific vision of the pope. Christ is the point. I, myself, admire the present pope, but even if I criticized him as harshly as some do, even if his successor proved to be as bad as some of those who have gone before, even if I find the Church, as I have to live with it, a pain in the neck, I should still say that nothing that a pope (or a priest) could do or say would make me wish to leave the Church, although I might well wish that they would leave.”

-Frank Sheed

 

[Raphael777]

Hi Alex,

I completely understand your dilemma. It is disheartening to hear this sort of drivel from folks who should most certainly know better. Kudos though to you. It really sounds like you’ve got your head screwed on straight

Is there another parish you could go to? I don’t really know much about the Church in Oregon, but rest assured that at least where I am, parishes like the ones you describe are definitely the exception and not the rule (what bothers me is that they shouldn’t exist at all). Maybe someone else from that area of the country can give you some good info. about parishes there.

Please know this: You have found the Ark you are looking for! Just because you are having issues with some of the barnacles clinging stubbornly to the side doesn’t mean you’re not on the right ship. You are definitely not alone in your frustrations (probably not even in the Parish you are attending - I’ve noticed that most Orthodox Catholics in such situations have better manners than the loud-mouthed dissenters and hold their tongues).

Please know you are in my prayers!

 

[yoopersenior]

Alex111,

I can understand where you are coming from. I, too, am considering becoming a Catholic
for several reasons, one of which is that I want to get away from the New Age ideas (which I think are dangerous, because they glorify the creation/man instead of the Creator and seem to be saying that man can save himself, by various false methods) that have crept into the Lutheran church as well. (Probably not the WELS synod, they are conservative and stick to the basics). Now that the Lutherans have come out in favor of ordaining openly gay clergy, I don’t want to be a part of that church. I grew up in the ELCA, and was at one time a deacon, but left a few years ago. I’ve done much reading and attending of various churches. The conservative, traditional Catholicism I see in people like Fr Corapi are an inspiration to me. I, too, am wondering how to find a congregation that holds to the truth.

 

[jonpd]

Yes you should still become Catholic. There are other parishes and you may find one that is more conservative. Christ’s church will eventually prevail.

 

[Snerticus]

It looks to me like you’re in an RCIA class in a liberal parish. No, if you feel that Catholicism is the Truth, then stay in the RCIA. Depending on how far you’re in, one option is to search on you’re diocese’s website for a parish that looks traditional to you and go and talk to the priest about joining their RCIA program. If you are far into the RCIA program, you probably should just stick it out until you are accepted into the Church, then change parishes.

It’s unfortunate that we have so many liberal/dissenting parishes, but you know what the Church teaches and always have the Catechism to fall back on. I’ve heard from a lot of Catholics that we don’t have to believe the Church on everything She says. But we do if it’s a matter of magisterial teaching. If you feel you are being taught errant doctrines, then find a more traditional parish. I’m sure there are some in your diocese.

Don’t give up on Catholicism just because of liberals who think they know more than the Pope. Fight the Good fight to the best of your abilities; stay in the race to the finish line. As time goes by, God will send you where He needs you. But in the meantime, if all this is a minor inconvenience, offer it up to Jesus on the Cross while you are uncomfortable. Apologize for them if you have to, for they know not what they do; and then when all is said and done, move on to what you know to be the Truth at another parish if possible.

Liberalism usually dies down after a while. Sometimes it may take longer than expected, but it usually settles down into the norm. If you are patient enough, you may see that parish change. Mine did and now they’re more traditional than they were 5 years ago. Of course, praying to Jesus and the Saints for their intercession probably helped.

 

[Raphael777]

Hi again Alex,

I just did a quick Google search. This please looks kind of neat: Link

 

[Julian0404]

I’m in a dilemma and would appreciate advice and/or information.

I’m in RCIA and considering becoming Roman Catholic, partly because I got disgusted by hearing blatant radical feminism and New Age fluff preached by the clergy at the Episcopal church I was attending (not to mention the national leader of the US Episcopal church). But I’ve become increasingly dismayed because the RCIA teachers, including the priest, are showing similar tendencies: they use the same annoying so-called “gender-inclusive language” to refer to God; last week one of the teachers referred to the “Sophia” passages in the bible as supposed evidence for a female God (as far as I know those passages are actually a poetic device personifying wisdom but not remotely referring to an actual god or part of the Godhead, and I spoke up in class and said so); also last week the same teacher said that you don’t have to agree with the church on everything, and specifically brought up abortion and said that you can be “pro-choice” and Catholic.

One of the big reasons I waited as long as I did to even consider officially becoming Catholic was that I used to be pro-abortion, and while I like a lot about the church I didn’t want to be a hypocrite. I’ve recently had a major change of heart regarding abortion, so it sort of annoys me to finally come to RCIA only to be told essentially that it doesn’t matter; that you can supposedly believe any kind of ultra-liberal fluff and still be Catholic.

I’m also disheartened by things like Catholic Campaign for Human Dignity supporting far-left causes (including until recently ACORN); the huge number of radical feminists in church leadership; and the fact that several national church organizations support Obamacare. (I’m glad the Stupak amendment passed, but it’s still an abomination that raises serious concerns about subsidiarity, euthanasia, and rationing.)

So, did I just happen to walk into the most liberal parish in the US? Is this an anomaly? Are there any conservative parishes in Portland Oregon? Is it just that the US church has a lot of heresy, but the Vatican is still true to tradition? Is Roman Catholicism still the faith of JRR Tolkien and GK Chesterton? Can I be politically conservative and still become Catholic? Is there any hope?

I’m really not trying to mean or snarky; I’m in a dilemma and have been for a while. I am very interested in being part of the Catholic faith…but I’m leaving the US Episcopal church in search of an ark of safety from postmodernism, feminism, crypto-Marxism, state-worship, etc… The Continuing Anglicans (the ones that follow the Affirmation of Saint Louis of 1977) seem to be much freer of these trends, but that’s because they recently split from the US church and from Canterbury, and not all Continuing Anglican churches are even in communion with each other. So, again, a dilemma.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

I would suggest you acquire a copy of the Scott Hahn CCD in which he details his conversion. He was named as the Dean of an evangelical Seminary in his 20’s in deference to his knowledge of scripture and theology. However that knowledge led him to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was and is the church formed by Jesus. In his purusit he encountered several priests who discouraged his pursuing the catholic faith, which was very disheartening to him, and he wondered if “The” catholic church which he fell in love with through scripture and study was truly still in existence. “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, so rest assured that even when a lay teacher or priest appears off message, the church will stand and survive. Yes, pursue your heart to the conclusion of your faith, and do not be detered by those who have lost the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the true faith. Pray for them as Jesus did, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. But likewise, challenge their ignorance. Do not let their message be delivered without rebuke of the truth.

 

[damooster]

Alex, I know exactly what you’re going through. I went through the same exact thing this time last year. I also thought about leaving that RCIA group and waiting a year to join one that was not so progressive. But then I realized that this was an opportunity to really learn the truth and how to counter what I was being taught. I suggest you do the same; use this as an opportunity to prepare yourself because you will encounter Catholics that are pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage etc.

I would caution you, however, to not rush to conclusions regarding what you are taught. I got to a point where I was simply just showing up to make the attendance requirements and I did miss out on some good conversations. I started to argue some of the points being made by telling the person the truth in the form of a question so that I didn’t come across as combative, and I put the truth in the other candidate’s heads. For example, when a speaker began advocating for women’s ordination, I said “didn’t Popes as recent as Pope John Paul II address this issue?” By doing that, I put the truth out there and forced the instructor to teach Catholic doctrine.

Best of luck to you. Hang in there!

 

[marci]

But I’ve become increasingly dismayed because the RCIA teachers, including the priest, are showing similar tendencies: they use the same annoying so-called “gender-inclusive language” to refer to God; last week one of the teachers referred to the “Sophia” passages in the bible as supposed evidence for a female God (as far as I know those passages are actually a poetic device personifying wisdom but not remotely referring to an actual god or part of the Godhead, and I spoke up in class and said so); also last week the same teacher said that you don’t have to agree with the church on everything, and specifically brought up abortion and said that you can be “pro-choice” and Catholic.

 

[JRKH]

I’m in a dilemma and would appreciate advice and/or information.

I’m in RCIA and considering becoming Roman Catholic, partly because I got disgusted by hearing blatant radical feminism and New Age fluff preached by the clergy at the Episcopal church I was attending (not to mention the national leader of the US Episcopal church). But I’ve become increasingly dismayed because the RCIA teachers, including the priest, are showing similar tendencies: they use the same annoying so-called “gender-inclusive language” to refer to God; last week one of the teachers referred to the “Sophia” passages in the bible as supposed evidence for a female God (as far as I know those passages are actually a poetic device personifying wisdom but not remotely referring to an actual god or part of the Godhead, and I spoke up in class and said so); also last week the same teacher said that you don’t have to agree with the church on everything, and specifically brought up abortion and said that you can be “pro-choice” and Catholic.

While personally I could “gloss over” the language issues, I can certainly understand your concern re: agreeing with everything the Church teaches and being both pro-choice and catholic. The Church has very clearly said this is not the case.
It is possible that a person might wonder or question a teaching by the Church, or even accept a teaching without really understanding the theology behind it (for example the immaculate conception). However, questioning should lead to study to understand and in the meantime acceptance without understanding should be the norm.
Under NO circumstances is it acceptable to disagree, especially publically, with Church teaching. Furthermore this teacher is endangering her soul, by teaching RCIA candidates this.

One of the big reasons I waited as long as I did to even consider officially becoming Catholic was that I used to be pro-abortion, and while I like a lot about the church I didn’t want to be a hypocrite. I’ve recently had a major change of heart regarding abortion, so it sort of annoys me to finally come to RCIA only to be told essentially that it doesn’t matter; that you can supposedly believe any kind of ultra-liberal fluff and still be Catholic.

YOU are in the right on this and the teacher is wrong. Stick to your guns.

I’m also disheartened by things like Catholic Campaign for Human Dignity supporting far-left causes (including until recently ACORN); the huge number of radical feminists in church leadership; and the fact that several national church organizations support Obamacare. (I’m glad the Stupak amendment passed, but it’s still an abomination that raises serious concerns about subsidiarity, euthanasia, and rationing.)

What the Church needs is more people like yourself. People who will stand up and live the True Catholic Faith.

So, did I just happen to walk into the most liberal parish in the US? Is this an anomaly? Are there any conservative parishes in Portland Oregon? Is it just that the US church has a lot of heresy, but the Vatican is still true to tradition? Is Roman Catholicism still the faith of JRR Tolkien and GK Chesterton? Can I be politically conservative and still become Catholic? Is there any hope?

While I can’t speak to Portland specifically, there are certainly more conservative parishes around. And yes unfortunatley there are any number of heresies alive in the Church. Thank you for deciding to join with us and add one more soul to the side of true, magisterial catholicism.

I’m really not trying to mean or snarky; I’m in a dilemma and have been for a while. I am very interested in being part of the Catholic faith…but I’m leaving the US Episcopal church in search of an ark of safety from postmodernism, feminism, crypto-Marxism, state-worship, etc… The Continuing Anglicans (the ones that follow the Affirmation of Saint Louis of 1977) seem to be much freer of these trends, but that’s because they recently split from the US church and from Canterbury, and not all Continuing Anglican churches are even in communion with each other. So, again, a dilemma.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

You are not coming across mean or snarky. The Catholic Church is just such an Ark. The beauty is that, regardless of the drivvel that you have been fed by this teacher, the true teachings of the Church are available. The Catechism is available, clear and ch=hock full of good and OFFICIAL teachings.
Seek another parish if you must, but stay the course to come on home to the Catholic Church.

Peace
James

 

[4EverHis]

It sounds to me like it’s more to do with your particular parish… have you tried a different one? The Church as a whole (especially when we look at the Vatican, the Pope, etc) is actually pretty conservative and traditional… sadly there is some liberalism creeping in but it’s not present in the Church teachings themselves. I think it really depends on the parish.

God bless

 

[ccolley2]

This quote by Frank Sheed, while not directly addressing commentary by layperson/teachers within the Church seems appropriate to post:

Excellent quote from Frank Sheed!
CC

 

[ccolley2]

I’m in a dilemma and would appreciate advice and/or information.

I’m in RCIA and considering becoming Roman Catholic, partly because I got disgusted by hearing blatant radical feminism and New Age fluff preached by the clergy at the Episcopal church I was attending (not to mention the national leader of the US Episcopal church). But I’ve become increasingly dismayed because the RCIA teachers, including the priest, are showing similar tendencies: they use the same annoying so-called “gender-inclusive language” to refer to God; last week one of the teachers referred to the “Sophia” passages in the bible as supposed evidence for a female God (as far as I know those passages are actually a poetic device personifying wisdom but not remotely referring to an actual god or part of the Godhead, and I spoke up in class and said so); also last week the same teacher said that you don’t have to agree with the church on everything, and specifically brought up abortion and said that you can be “pro-choice” and Catholic.

One of the big reasons I waited as long as I did to even consider officially becoming Catholic was that I used to be pro-abortion, and while I like a lot about the church I didn’t want to be a hypocrite. I’ve recently had a major change of heart regarding abortion, so it sort of annoys me to finally come to RCIA only to be told essentially that it doesn’t matter; that you can supposedly believe any kind of ultra-liberal fluff and still be Catholic.

I’m also disheartened by things like Catholic Campaign for Human Dignity supporting far-left causes (including until recently ACORN); the huge number of radical feminists in church leadership; and the fact that several national church organizations support Obamacare. (I’m glad the Stupak amendment passed, but it’s still an abomination that raises serious concerns about subsidiarity, euthanasia, and rationing.)

So, did I just happen to walk into the most liberal parish in the US? Is this an anomaly? Are there any conservative parishes in Portland Oregon? Is it just that the US church has a lot of heresy, but the Vatican is still true to tradition? Is Roman Catholicism still the faith of JRR Tolkien and GK Chesterton? Can I be politically conservative and still become Catholic? Is there any hope?

I’m really not trying to mean or snarky; I’m in a dilemma and have been for a while. I am very interested in being part of the Catholic faith…but I’m leaving the US Episcopal church in search of an ark of safety from postmodernism, feminism, crypto-Marxism, state-worship, etc… The Continuing Anglicans (the ones that follow the Affirmation of Saint Louis of 1977) seem to be much freer of these trends, but that’s because they recently split from the US church and from Canterbury, and not all Continuing Anglican churches are even in communion with each other. So, again, a dilemma.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Yes, you SHOULD join the Catholic Church…As Peter said to Jesus…" Lord, to whom else would we go?" learn the faith from orthodox sources.Buy a Catechism. Follow your heart. Come home. Then defend the true teachings of the church from all comers…I did all these things 19 years ago.

There are many great books about conversion. one of them is called, Surprised by Truth. by Patrick Madrid. You can get it on his website or other websites. Another good one is Catholic For a Reason I **think **it is by Frank Sheed…but not
sure.
CC

 

[Crumpy]

As I watch episode after episode of Marcus Grodi’s program The Journey Home on EWTN, I often wonder if people who made that long journey to the Catholic Church were actually dismayed in any way after they got here. It would be so easy to believe that they were.

I receive Matt Abbott’s column from a website called Renew America. He had some excerpts from a woman describing the raging feminist movement in the RC Church across the country. Yes, I can see its effects in my own diocese and parish.

That is an example of something big going on the Church today. But, there have been controversies in the Church even in Biblical New Testament times. So, we should not be mislead even by our own idealism that we’re going to like everything we see in the Catholic Church.

I recently was absent from Mass for almost five years because of various problems. I was still reading scripture and convinced that we are created and meant to worship God on Sunday…in the Church!

Marcus said recently that we are all converts to the Catholic Church. We are all undergoing conversion every day of our life. I think he’s right. It’s good to keep that in mind. Keep in mind what our Savior said; we shall know the truth and the truth will make us free.

Don’t even come into the Catholic Church with high expectations that others are going to meet such-and-such criteria. Trust me, you’re not going to like everybody and everything.

Where do I start? The man who runs a local florist shop, who is constantly using the church as an advertisement for his business? The local city commission candidate who wants to be seen as much as possible, to advertise himself for the political job? Yes, it’s all here. As St Paul says, “keep your eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith.”

On Sunday morning you will run into the person with the cigarette ashtray breath or the pickled bologna garlic breath. You’ll run into the people who will make you wonder why they bother coming to Mass, because they’re talking the whole time. There will be the people there who are obviously sick, and shouldn’t be there.

We are all flawed, no doubt. But, learn your faith and keep on growing in the faith. Let YOU be the example.

 

[wanner47]

Non-Catholic C.S. Lewis wrote in Mere Christianity,

“It [Christianity] is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. . . .even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and panelling. In plain language, the question should never be: “Do I like that kind of service?” but “Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?” When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.”

Emphasis and brackets mine.

If you join the Church, it MUST be because you believe with your heart that it is the Church established by Christ, and the Church He has given authority to teach in His name. Everything else is just details.

 

[StrawberryJam]

“On Sunday morning you will run into the person with the cigarette ashtray breath or the pickled bologna garlic breath”

Wow. You must do a much different “Kiss of Peace” than I see at the parish I go to.

 

[Alex111]

Thank you for all the great responses! (I’m new to this forum so I’m not sure how to respond individually.) I may go to St. Birgitta’s. But regardless, this definitely helps, hearing from all of you.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I wish posters to the forums would show locations in their profiles. Perhaps there are more disobedient Catholics in certain parts of the country? In my diocese we aren’t perfect but I haven’t experienced the outrageous ‘liberal’ agenda in parishes here.

Alex, maybe the parish RCIA teacher or priest isn’t faithful to church teaching (and you should challenge that) but there are probably many faithful believers in the parish. Either stay there and make a difference through prayer, penance, and standing up for the truth or go through RCIA in another parish. But don’t give up on the Catholic Church. Once you come into the Church you aren’t required to stay in the parish where you went through RCIA. If the Lord is leading you into the Church, you should trust and obey him.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I wish posters to the forums would show locations in their profiles. **Perhaps there are more disobedient Catholics **in certain parts of the country? In my diocese we aren’t perfect but I haven’t experienced the outrageous ‘liberal’ agenda in parishes here.

Alex, maybe the parish RCIA teacher or priest isn’t faithful to church teaching (and you should challenge that) but there are probably many faithful believers in the parish. Either stay there and make a difference through prayer, penance, and standing up for the truth or go through RCIA in another parish. But don’t give up on the Catholic Church. Once you come into the Church you aren’t required to stay in the parish where you went through RCIA. If the Lord is leading you into the Church, you should trust and obey him.

Did you mean to say Bishops, Archbishops, or were you talking about the rank and file?
And if you were talking about the rank and file, how would you have access to their fidelity?



I can understand you wishing to know about an area where you could easily research the bishop’s stance.

But, the actual day in and day out rank and file? Where would you get that information from?