Diocese of Episcopal Church proposes making God Gender-Neutral

[Sy_Noe]

I’m always surprised when I see posts such as on this thread about how something like this will add to the number of Catholics. When in actuality it is a 2-way street. With the number of non-practicing Catholics and those who have found spiritual homes elsewhere, there is pew space however.

 

[tradcathconvert]

Not to give them any ideas, but they could open the Pater Noster with our parent of undetermined gender. Wouldn’t put it past them. So glad I left the Episcopal Church close to 50 years ago.

 

[commenter]

True. The biggest gainer from this kind of nonsense is secularism. A few more conservative TEC types who were already leaning towards leaving anyway, will leave, and some of them will go RCC. The problem is that this kind of nonsense no longer is obviously nonsense for people, maybe 60 or younger.

When they see part of the Church subservient to the secular culture, they don’t see that as a problem, at all. They ask why the rest of the Church is (still) “behind the times”, why don’t they all get subservient. The whole caution regarding “The World” is absent in their religious formation, be they Episcopal, RCC, or most Protestant.

Unlike the TEC, conservatism tends to win in the RCC in the long run. Liberal Catholic parents - even those influential in the Church - don’t raise liberal Catholics, they raise non Catholics. Liberal convents are, literally, turning into nursing homes, their influence disappearing. Every young priest or seminarian I have met or heard about is conservative.

But you are right, the Church is getting smaller. Secularism grows bigger.

 

[billsannie]

I don’t wish to upset anyone, but frankly all this consternation directed at the Diocese of Washington strikes me as a great deal of fuss over very little. God, being infinite, must be much, much more than either male or female, far beyond what our minds can begin to comprehend. Since God is great beyond what our poor human minds can imagine, why do we get bent out of shape over what pronoun we use to try to describe that infinity?

 

[billsannie]

Or to put it another way, trying to describe God in human language is comparable to trying to fit the ocean into a very small bucket. Arguing about whether God is He, She or gender-neutral is like arguing about which color the bucket should be.

 

[phil19034]

Years ago, some Presbyterians (PCUSA) did something similar where they allowed the option of changing the baptismal formula replacing the “masculine” Father, Son and Holy Spirit with “Mother, Child and Womb”.

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian?

 

[ltwin]

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian

Depending on who you asked, some might say its been “non-Christian” for a while now.

However, I actually remember that the PCUSA specifically required the traditional formula (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) to be used in baptism. What they allowed was new names for the Trinity to be used in other parts of their worship services.

I suppose they wanted to be gender-inclusive but also kept in mind the ecumenical ramifications for changing the baptismal formula. I’ll clarify my comment above.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I remember when PCUSA replaced masculine Father, Son and Holy Spirit with
Mother, Child and Womb! That was very Episcopalianesque I thought.

 

[7_Sorrows]

The Anglican Catholic Church, as you may know, is one of the 4 major Continuing Anglican jurisdictions now in formal communion (communicatio In sacris) . While one hesitates to be optimistic (no orthodox Anglican is ever optimistic), this is likely going to continue to full formal union, a single Church. A sort of reboot of the 40 years since the St. Louis Congress.

Are you saying the 4 major Continuing Anglican jurisdictions will become a single church or they will come into full communion with the Catholic church?
@GKMotley

Aren’t there like 20+ different Anglican communions of North America?

For the traditional Anglican communions to survive they really need to unify and not
splinter into different groups.

 

[GKMotley]

They are aiming at unifying into a single, orthodox Anglican Church. And reaching out to get more such groups together. We should be so lucky. Unifying is good. Anglicans are fissiparous. As well as motley.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I would hate to see the Anglican Communion disappear. The traditional or orthodox Anglicans need to unify to preserve the tradition otherwise they will divide like so many other denominations.
The closer they remain to the Catholic church the better.
I will pray they can get more groups to unify - and not be so - motley.

 

[GKMotley]

You and me both.

 

[Sy_Noe]

ltwin:

Years ago, some Presbyterians (PCUSA) did something similar where they allowed the option of changing the baptismal formula replacing the “masculine” Father, Son and Holy Spirit with “Mother, Child and Womb”.

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian

Not sure of you’re religion but if you’re Catholic, is that what your church teaches? Granted I’ve been away awhile but I hadn’t realized the Catholic Church now had PCUSA on the non-Christian list.

 

[jeannetherese]

There is something a bit off in that title.

 

[johnjacob2004]

Christians follow Christ… Christ taught us to say our Father…
these so-called “Christians” are delusional

 

[exnihilo]

Since God is great beyond what our poor human minds can imagine, why do we get bent out of shape over what pronoun we use to try to describe that infinity?

Because God has revealed himself in the masculine. Because God is masculine in relation to His creation. This doesn’t mean that God is male. But it does mean that God is more identified with the masculine.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

ltwin:

Years ago, some Presbyterians (PCUSA) did something similar where they allowed the option of changing the baptismal formula replacing the “masculine” Father, Son and Holy Spirit with “Mother, Child and Womb”.

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian

Not sure of you’re religion but if you’re Catholic, is that what your church teaches? Granted I’ve been away awhile but I hadn’t realized the Catholic Church now had PCUSA on the non-Christian list.

Please don’t put words in my mouth or take what I said out of context.

In order to be considered Christian, the Trinitarian Formula must be used at Baptism: “In the Name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.”

Nothing else can be used. Mother, Child & Womb is heresy and if used at Baptism would not be a valid baptism, nor Christian. Also, it’s very pagan and goes back to the pagan idea of a deity called Sophia.

“Non-Trinitarian Christians” are not Christian. They are very similar to Christians because the believe in the Divinity of Christ, but they deny the Trinity, or at least the way the Trinity is universally understood by all Christians.

Also, if you noticed, one poster did state that the PCUSA still apparently uses the Trinitarian formula for baptism, but allows the concept of the “Sophia” to for other parts of the worship.

Point is, their understanding of the Trinity is quickly going out the window.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sy_Noe:

phil19034:

ltwin:

Years ago, some Presbyterians (PCUSA) did something similar where they allowed the option of changing the baptismal formula replacing the “masculine” Father, Son and Holy Spirit with “Mother, Child and Womb”.

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian

Not sure of you’re religion but if you’re Catholic, is that what your church teaches? Granted I’ve been away awhile but I hadn’t realized the Catholic Church now had PCUSA on the non-Christian list.

Please don’t put words in my mouth or take what I said out of context.

In order to be considered Christian, the Trinitarian Formula must be used at Baptism: “In the Name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.”

Nothing else can be used. Mother, Child & Womb is heresy and if used at Baptism would not be a valid baptism, nor Christian. Also, it’s very pagan and goes back to the pagan idea of a deity called Sophia.

“Non-Trinitarian Christians” are not Christian. They are very similar to Christians because the believe in the Divinity of Christ, but they deny the Trinity, or at least the way the Trinity is universally understood by all Christians.

Also, if you noticed, one poster did state that the PCUSA still apparently uses the Trinitarian formula for baptism, but allows the concept of the “Sophia” to for other parts of the worship.

Point is, their understanding of the Trinity is quickly going out the window.

You’re he one who asked if PCUSA is becoming non Christian and I merely asked if the Catholic Church says it is non Christian.

 

[commenter]

phil19034:

ltwin:

Years ago, some Presbyterians (PCUSA) did something similar where they allowed the option of changing the baptismal formula replacing the “masculine” Father, Son and Holy Spirit with “Mother, Child and Womb”.

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian

Not sure of you’re religion but if you’re Catholic, is that what your church teaches? Granted I’ve been away awhile but I hadn’t realized the Catholic Church now had PCUSA on the non-Christian list.

There is no list but there are “Christian” sounding groups or organizations that used to be Christian, but are not anymore, in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Some of these would now be considered cults. Others are totally secular, exist only for political or other purposes. Some have mostly disappeared, like the Gnostics, others are still around to this day.

That does not mean the Church necessarily considers them evil. It means they no longer function within the range of Christian orthodoxy. Of course the PCUSA still has individual Christians, and no doubt many congregations or institutions that are orthodox.

I do not know enough about the PCUSA overall to rate them unorthodox overall, but certainly unorthodoxy is a possible destination for the organization as a whole, or parts of it.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Sy_Noe:

phil19034:

ltwin:

Years ago, some Presbyterians (PCUSA) did something similar where they allowed the option of changing the baptismal formula replacing the “masculine” Father, Son and Holy Spirit with “Mother, Child and Womb”.

So PCUSA is becoming non-Christian

Not sure of you’re religion but if you’re Catholic, is that what your church teaches? Granted I’ve been away awhile but I hadn’t realized the Catholic Church now had PCUSA on the non-Christian list.

Please don’t put words in my mouth or take what I said out of context.

In order to be considered Christian, the Trinitarian Formula must be used at Baptism: “In the Name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.”

Nothing else can be used. Mother, Child & Womb is heresy and if used at Baptism would not be a valid baptism, nor Christian. Also, it’s very pagan and goes back to the pagan idea of a deity called Sophia.

“Non-Trinitarian Christians” are not Christian. They are very similar to Christians because the believe in the Divinity of Christ, but they deny the Trinity, or at least the way the Trinity is universally understood by all Christians.

Also, if you noticed, one poster did state that the PCUSA still apparently uses the Trinitarian formula for baptism, but allows the concept of the “Sophia” to for other parts of the worship.

Point is, their understanding of the Trinity is quickly going out the window.

You’re he one who asked if PCUSA is becoming non Christian and I merely asked if the Catholic Church says it is non Christian.

Yes, I asked (granted I forgot to include a question mark). And no, I didn’t say the Church taught anything specific about the PCUSA.

However, if they stop baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they will cease to be Christian.

God bless