Diocese of Orange - Bishop Brown-Kneeling after Agnus Dei is MORTAL SIN!!

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nkelly:
People,

isn’t it a grave sin to act contrary to the decrees of the bishop?

If the bishop is in error, I’m sure our Lord will have a word in his ear.

It’s not a sin to obey a bishop if he’s in error but it is a sin to disobey
him.

Am I wrong?

God bless,
Noel.
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Noel:

We are required to obey our Bishops when they give LAWFUL ORDERS that are within their Authority to give.

According to Cardinal Arinze’s Letter, and accrording to the strict construction of the GIRM, NO Bishop can order the Faithful to stand during the period after the Agnus Dei, when the Church has kneeled for the better part of 19 Centuries (Except in the East on Sunday’s when they have a total ban on “Postration”). Therefore, Bishop Brown’ didn’t have the authority to issue that order.

Bishop Brown has commanded the Faithful to show disrespect to our Lord. According to the Teaching of the Church, we are responsible for what we do - We won’t be allowed to claim, “A bishop ordered me to do it,” if this turns out to be wrong. In such a case, the Faithful may be obliged to respectfully and quitely disobey such an order until a ruling is handed down from the Vartican.

In this case, Cardinal Arinze has spoken on the issue, and we have a ruling from the Vatican. I can’t see how it would be a sin for the Faithful to obey Cardinal Arinze and the Vatican on this one instead of a local Bishop who has a history of defiance to the directions from the Vatican along with dissents from the teaching of the Church.

I’m not under Bishop Brown’s authority. If I were, you can bet I’d be hunting through the ECF and Conciliar Documents for arguments to support what I just stated (most of which is based on John Henry Cardinal Newman).

This type of controversy is one reason I believe members of this Forum need to contact Bishop Brown and Fr. Tran and then contact the appropriate people over at the Vatican.

If we don’t stop it know, it will be coming to a Diocese near you, and still more Faithful people, the ones who almost always follow the Teachings of the Church, will leave.

Is that what we want to see?

In Christ, Michael
 
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nkelly:
People,

isn’t it a grave sin to act contrary to the decrees of the bishop?

If the bishop is in error, I’m sure our Lord will have a word in his ear.

It’s not a sin to obey a bishop if he’s in error but it is a sin to disobey
him.

Am I wrong?

God bless,
Noel.
Click to expand...
Yes you are wrong. If a Bishop decrees something immoral (or even just unjust) you are not obligated to obey it. Heck, if the Pope decrees something immoral or unjust you are not obligated to obey it. If a Bishop decrees that once a month all in the diocese must worship Baal and sacrifice their firstborn Virgin daughter, then the faithful are not only permitted to disobey, they must. To decree that kneeling before Jesus is a mortal sin that damns one to hell is not only immoral and unjust, its just totally assinine.

I thank God I don’t live in that diocese. If I did, I must confess that I would be debating with myself whether to pack up and leave altogether (finding some Pius X group or some other group) or stay on at St. Mary’s and just be a total pain in the ***. Something tells me, based on my own cantankorousness, that it would be the latter. A steady stream of kneelers every Sunday at as many parishes as possible, including the Cathedral is needed I think. I would also not tithe a dime to the diocese and let the Bishop know that the diocese would not get one cent until he revoked the decree. And if that didn’t work, well, I could always move I guess, or find a St. Pius X parish or an Eastern rite or Eastern Orthodox parish.
 
Beeline:

I’m sorry to hear about that. I’ve been going through something similar in my parish over something else. I can tell you it’s very painfull to look around and see that people I used to know and fellowship with are just gone.

Nothing is going to take that pain away except time.

In my experience, Catholics usually don’t respond or organize (I know - I organized a letter writing campaign on Catholic answers in June and July, - Herding Cats would have been easier) until things have gotten so bad that raw emotions take over. By then, the rational things that would produce the desired results are the last things people do.

In your case, the false charges about not being allowed to kneel when receiving communion are coming from that raw emotion. I have something similar I had to bring someone back from.

In these cases, you’ll find an overly emothional “ringleader” who promised “results” if only he was allowed to lead the group. In my case, I had to get the “Ringleader” to drop a false charge.

I can only tell you that removing the alter rail and the cross were big mistakes - St. Mary’s had probably become the last refuge for a group of people who felt disempowered and emasculated by the changes and by their inability to influence the actions of Bishop Brown.

St. Victor’s here in West Hollywood has an alter rail, and the Faithful kneel at it to receive communion. It’s somehow comforting. I wonder what’s going to happen to that alter rail now that I’ve posted about it here. Will the “Liberals” take that one out too?

In know that malcontents are no fun, but what good does it do to push these people out the doors rather than listening to then and trying to see if putting the alter rail back in would solve the problem and stop the flyers? People who feel that people in authority are listening to them, and that they can effect things that are happening around them, won’t print-up and distribute scurilous flyers acusing Fr. Tran of every crime under the sun.

They may even apologize for them and start participating in the “Passing of the Peace”. And, You’ll have a lot happier situation than you do now.

The problem is, if I read the articles correctly, it sounds as if Bishop Brown has decided to push these people out the doors. As I said, I know malcontnts can be a real pain, but does he realize what he’s doing?

I left the Church for some 20 years over a bunch of petty resentments and what not, and it took tricks I never knew the Lord had, an Orthodox Rabbi who cared enough about me to risk his life (He was living in Israel and took a bus the Palestinians were bombing to place a name for me at the “Ailing Wall”) and an actual miracle (the person who’s information he placed was pulled back from death’s doorstep) to bring me back.

I had a brain tumor while I was gone - I could have died! What if some of the people Bishop Brown succeeds in pushing out DIE away from God’s Grace?

Is this really a chance Bishop Brown is willing to take because he doesn’t like them or their brand of Catholicism?

Somebody needs to ask these questions, and then to sit down and lsten to these people, before they leave in a hurry, or before Bishop Brown sees no need for St. Mary’s and closes the parish down. Please…

Peace be with you.

In Christ, Michael
 
This thread was started on the basis of an email the original poster received, not a legitimate news article as required by forum guidelines. The article that another poster linked to is an opinion piece in Catholic World News, not a news article, is blatantly biased, and cites no sources for the author’s allegations.

This thread is now closed. A new thread can be started on the same topic, but only if we have some verifiable facts to start it off. Emails and editorials just don’t cut it. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Walt
 
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