Disagreement on Makeup/Decorum

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gcshapero

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I have been seeing someone since October. She’s a very sweet devout Catholic woman and we have become very serious in our relationship.

That said, we have a few small disagreements. They are small now, but I’m wondering if these things which seem trivial now will grow.

One of these that we’ve been talking about, or rather debating on, is the subject of makeup. When I first met her, I thought she did wear makeup (though very little). She had mentioned that she is against makeup and finds it sinful.

When I told her that I disagree and that it’s a matter of what is decorous for each person’s objective calling by God, she still claimed it was wrong. When I had mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas’s position on women’s cosmetics (seriously, her wrote about it), he wrote:

“In the case of married women: “If a married woman adorn herself in order to please her husband, she can do this without sin.”

She said this was stupid.

Needless to say, I think she is absolutely wrong. Nonetheless, I’m not in any sort of position where I demand she wears it. However, I do think that if we get to a position where we are married and have a daughter, I don’t want her teaching her that it is intrinsically a sin when I not only think it isn’t, but I even think it is good if done according to modesty and decorum.

How does one approach this?
 
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From my side - I say it’s her decision -
I’d be upset if a woman told me how to dress - or no cologne - etc -

wait till the bigger arguments - but don’t seek them out though…
 
Seagull said:
From my side - I say it’s her decision -
I’d be upset if a woman told me how to dress - or no cologne - etc -

wait till the bigger arguments - but don’t seek them out though…
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Just in case I wasn’t being clear (maybe I wasn’t), by no means do I think she should now wear makeup. She can wear it or not wear it, and whether I like it or not, it’s up to her. Personally, I think she’s extremely pretty regardless. But that’s not so much the point.

This isn’t about taste so much as it is about objective morality. If she takes a position on something that I think is totally not true, this could be just the tip of the iceberg, correct? Isn’t it possible that this could spiral into something major?

For instance, I don’t have any intention of teaching my daughters that makeup is intrinsically sinful. In fact, if I have daughters who grow up to get married to virtuous Catholic men, I would be happy to hear that they choose to wear makeup so as display a sense of honor to them. I would expect their husbands to do the same (though not with makeup of course :P)
 
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I think you are wise to consider this. There could be many other things on which you disagree and what appears trivial may be the tip of the iceberg.

Perhaps she would listen to some well respected Catholic women like https://leahdarrow.com/

or http://teresatomeo.com/ (thinking of her “Extreme Makeover” book).

She is holding as sinful something which is truly morally neutral.
 
I agree about it being the tip of the iceberg. If this were all you disagreed on, no big deal. It could just be a quirky thing. But will there be more of these things if you dug deeper? What will come up later if you were to marry and be raising children. I would be concerned with her way of disciplining, or her attitude in general towards women that are not just like her in regards to your children. Or any number of things that you may find down the road, after finding this one thing that seems a bit odd. Tread carefully and slowly, OP.
 
Irishmom2 said:
I agree about it being the tip of the iceberg. If this were all you disagreed on, no big deal. It could just be a quirky thing. But will there be more of these things if you dug deeper? What will come up later if you were to marry and be raising children. I would be concerned with her way of disciplining, or her attitude in general towards women that are not just like her in regards to your children. Or any number of things that you may find down the road, after finding this one thing that seems a bit odd. Tread carefully and slowly, OP.
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Thanks, Irishmom.

Indeed. The reason why these things come up in discussion with us, or perhaps why I intend to discuss them with her is because I don’t want to sweep anything under the rug. Whether it be makeup, living location, homeschooling or sending kids to school, or even letting our kids read books like Harry Potter, I want to make sure we’re on board together. If they are small now and we just shrug, I suspect it will become a pretty huge deal later. I can compromise, but not on everything, nor do I think certain things should be compromised.
 
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gcshapero said:
That said, we have a few small disagreements. They are small now, but I’m wondering if these things which seem trivial now will grow.
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At first glance it looks as though it might be an instance of scrupulosity, but you haven’t really given us much background information. For instance, as far as you know, has she never worn makeup at all, ever, or did she once wear it regularly and then decided to stop? If so, at what age, and what does she say about what occurred at the time that prompted her to change her mind?

Does she hold any other views that might similarly be interpreted as scrupulosity? I’m not asking you – obviously! – to post a complete psychological profile of her here on the thread, but a simple Yes or No answer would be helpful.
 
I agree with the previous posters…be wary and go slow and find out more about her views. When I was younger, I unwittingly was involved in a very, very fundamentalist group/church…practically a cult. They also took very strong stands on innocuous things like make-up and made their rules about what is sin or not. Dresses only type rules, for example. After finally escaping that mind-set and being set free, I am very wary of those who hold to such beliefs. So definitely talk to her. Being married is hard enough without taking such a strong stance on little issues like this. People can, and do, often change and relax over time, but that is not a guarantee! Sometimes they get even more legalistic. Moderation in all things is the best bet.
 
gcshapero said:
How does one approach this?
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I think you put the brakes on, and you continue to have discussions about these types of things. What is most concerning is that when you presented a solid argument, from a doctor of the church no less, her reaction wasn’t “I see your point“ but rather “that’s stupid”.

“That’s stupid” isn’t an argument. It’s childish. Her position seems to be rather intractable in the face of actual evidence.

And the position she holds is way out there. I would look for signs that this is a pattern. Does she have fringe beliefs about other things?

Her rigidity seems to me that it might be an indicator that she is the type of person influenced by fringe beliefs, possibly in the name of “traditional” Catholicism— which is not really traditional but rather… whack-a-doodle.

If she displays such beliefs about other things, particularly asserting that things are sinful when they are clearly not delineated as sinful by the church, I would take those as dealbreakers.

As to this one thing, you are right to be concerned about the type of influence it would be on a future daughter, what sort of fights might instigate within the household, what sort of other things might she teach a daughter?

This isn’t about makeup, it’s about how she forms her beliefs and how she communicates and compromises, and particularly how she reacts when she is incorrect or something is a prudential matter.

Definitely something to continue to test out.
 
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1ke said:
This isn’t about makeup, it’s about how she forms her beliefs and how she communicates and compromises, and particularly how she reacts when she is incorrect or something is a prudential matter.
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I think this is it in a nutshell, 1ke. It’s the thought process that goes into the decisions she makes, the “why” she believes things are sins that aren’t, and how she reacts when given knowledge of facts and truth.
 
BartholomewB said:
At first glance it looks as though it might be an instance of scrupulosity, but you haven’t really given us much background information. For instance, as far as you know, has she never worn makeup at all, ever, or did she once wear it regularly and then decided to stop? If so, at what age, and what does she say about what occurred at the time that prompted her to change her mind?

Does she hold any other views that might similarly be interpreted as scrupulosity? I’m not asking you – obviously! – to post a complete psychological profile of her here on the thread, but a simple Yes or No answer would be helpful.
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No, that’s a fair question! Her position is that if God made people a certain way, then adding something like makeup is wrong. However, she sees no problem with tattoos provided they are modest. I asked her how she can find issue with makeup but not tattoos. She said it’s because the face is more important. Nonetheless, one is still permanent and it would seem tattoos would be worse. When I asked about nail polish, she said she just thinks it’s stupid. When I drilled down and asked if she thought it was objectively wrong like makeup, she coudln’t seem to answer.

She wore makeup a few times when she was in high school and just wasn’t drawn to it. I found it strange as she’s not a tomboy and appreciates femininity.

It’s more the issue of if we were to get married and have children. I have no plan to teach them something that I think is objectively not even true.
 
1ke said:
This isn’t about makeup, it’s about how she forms her beliefs and how she communicates and compromises, and particularly how she reacts when she is incorrect or something is a prudential matter.
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That is exactly right. This isn’t just about makeup really. It’s more about the principle. If I marry and have children, I think I have a right to my children being taught authentic truth, and if there is room for compromise, it should be present.
 
gcshapero said:
However, I do think that if we get to a position where we are married and have a daughter, I don’t want her teaching her that it is intrinsically a sin when I not only think it isn’t, but I even think it is good if done according to modesty and decorum.
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Tell her this and ask her what she believes about submitting to her husband’s spiritual leadership in marriage even if she disagrees. (especially because, in this instance, she is wrong about makeup being a sin.) That may just lead to a very interesting conversation about both of your beliefs, expectations and ability to compromise/cooperate with one another. You’ll both probably gain some valuable insights.
 
I don’t wear makeup because I feel it damages people’s skin and makes it hard for the skin to breathe. I enjoy watching makeup videos but I feel most women look better without makeup.

I think you shouldn’t worry about this. If you have a daughter, she will be able to fight this battle quite well with her mother. This is a first-world problem. Other factors will likely enter the discussion such as, your daughter might say, “but this is my babysitting money and I can spend it as I choose.” Your daughter may have greasy skin with plenty of acne, and absolutely require makeup. Or she may be allergic. She may have bigger problems which will cause her mother to not worry about it.

Make up isn’t a sin, but it’s really not necessary. My sisters and I weren’t allowed to wear makeup or nail polish. I’m glad my Dad used to say, “You can’t make something rounder than round or squarer that square.” Consequently, I have enormous confidence as I walk around in my beautiful, youthful skin. Most people think I’m ten years younger than I am. I get compliments on my skin. I do nothing for it and stayed out of the sun til last year. That’s the secret.

Makeup makes women feel they have to put it on or they aren’t beautiful enough. They always have to do something more or be something they aren’t to be admired or loved. That’s the feeling your girlfriend is trying to prevent. She wants to raise confident girls.
 
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