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Irishmom2
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I do not think your views are wrong. You are entitled to them. What concerns me is the flip flopping your girlfriend does. Keep talking with her. More people should do what you are doing.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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A few things:
These roles can change depending on the day and the skillset of the individuals. I have a business degree. I am the “keeper of the finances” and the final veto on whether or not we can do something. While we are both good at budgeting, things like interest rates, time-value of money, etc are just not his forte.
You are BOTH to care for the kids and use any skills to protect them. My husband can get the kids to safety just as well as I can, but there are things we do better than the other. He is stronger, but I am a more nimble driver and know how to use a gun. It would be plain stupid for me to hand off the gun to him so he could (not know how to) shoot just so I could “handle the children”
Both men and women are called to sacrifice wholly and completely. The roles can look different and are often gendered becuase of skill sets, but are not defined by genitalia.
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gcshapero
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I agree with most of what you said. I may have been speaking a bit too generally. Last night, we were being more specific on certain things.
For instance, if any given wife sees distress in her child’s health that her husband isn’t noticing and she says, “Honey, we’re taking him to the hospital right now. End of discussion,” then I’d say that’s a reasonable stance for the wife to take. Women tend to have more of a 6th sense on those things then men do.
When it comes to care of the children, indeed, it’s both of their roles. Our scenario was in regards to an intruder coming into the house. However, this care and protection is applied differently.
Women are called the sacrifice, but not in the same way. Men and women are defined by their divine gifts from God. I think we both agree on some of this already, though I’m sure sure I agree with all of the points you made. Though maybe that’s where she and I are misunderstanding and need to talk about more.
You did give me something to think about though in case I wasn’t clear with her and if she wasn’t clear with me.
For instance, if any given wife sees distress in her child’s health that her husband isn’t noticing and she says, “Honey, we’re taking him to the hospital right now. End of discussion,” then I’d say that’s a reasonable stance for the wife to take. Women tend to have more of a 6th sense on those things then men do.
When it comes to care of the children, indeed, it’s both of their roles. Our scenario was in regards to an intruder coming into the house. However, this care and protection is applied differently.
Women are called the sacrifice, but not in the same way. Men and women are defined by their divine gifts from God. I think we both agree on some of this already, though I’m sure sure I agree with all of the points you made. Though maybe that’s where she and I are misunderstanding and need to talk about more.
You did give me something to think about though in case I wasn’t clear with her and if she wasn’t clear with me.
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gcshapero
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Just in case I wasn’t clear here either, I’d never claim she is not an equal. She is. However, this means equal in value, but she has her functions and I have mine. Some overlap and some don’t. If an intruder came in, I wouldn’t tell her to stand with me against this guy so that we can both attack him together. My priority would be that she put herself in a safer position and care for our kids and make sure they are OK.
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Elizabeth3
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Ok, maybe I can explain what she means although I’m not her but perhaps you can run it by her to see. When she says “I’m not disagreeing with you.” but then seems to also not see completely eye to eye with you about it, I think what she is saying is that she agrees with you that the husband “always takes leadership and protection over his entire family” and that “the precise role for men is to tack on that element of sacrifice” but she doesn’t agree that that necessarily precludes that she would totally be up for the fight to help defend the family if there was an intruder.
I don’t see your ideas as problematic at all. The wife can play to her strengths and the husband as a good leader should delegate those things to the wife that she is simply better at than him. If that means taking over the finances and shooting a gun, as Xantippe said would be the prudent choice in her marriage, then so be it. As long as the husband doesn’t see his leadership as meaning that there must be a strict divide in “women’s work” and “men’s work” regardless of who would handle it better, then all will be well.
You both would have to decide who is strong in what areas in order to figure out a game plan in the case of an intruder. Ask her what skills she thinks she has that would work well with yours in the event of needing to defend your home. Ask her what would happen to the kids, if a parent wasn’t with them leading them to a safe place and/or calling for help and if it’s prudent for both parents to risk being killed trying to defend the house and therefore leaving the kids with no one to guide them and without a second line of defense if needed. These things are important and if she’s the one handling the kids then tell her it’s strategy not tyranny.
Keep talking to her and anything that you are not sure of as far as what she means, ask her about it until it’s clear so you will both be on the same page.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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And if she knew how to shoot a gun and you didn’t? “Functions” are not always traditional. My husband has a better “sick kid” detector than I do. I usually know what their babble means, however.Xanthippe_Voorhees:
Just in case I wasn’t clear here either, I’d never claim she is not an equal. She is. However, this means equal in value, but she has her functions and I have mine. Some overlap and some don’t. If an intruder came in, I wouldn’t tell her to stand with me against this guy so that we can both attack him together. My priority would be that she put herself in a safer position and care for our kids and make sure they are OK.
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gcshapero
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Ahh, I see your point, and Elizabeth illustrated it very well.
In our specific case, I can indeed shoot a gun and it turns out she cannot, but if it were reversed, then that may be a different story – but I think I’d have to take on the responsibility to learn too.
If it’s managing finances, that too. If she were a financial wizard and far better than me, then I’d trust her knowledge. If I simply said “you’re a woman and therefore it doesn’t matter that you know more than me on this specific topic, I’ll do it anyway,” then that WOULD indeed be tyrannical because it doesn’t make sense.
It is very possible that this wasn’t discussed very clearly between us and we kept missing each other’s points.
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1ke
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The whole part about “this is the woman’s role” and “this is the man’s role”.
What if the wife is the better shot? What if the wife is the one who took martial arts classes? What if confronting the intruder is a bad idea and everyone should run out the back door? What if both husband and wife confronting the intruder as a team is the best option? What if only the wife is home?
The wife running to put the kids behind her skirts like a good little woman while the man saves the day— nope. That’s a stereotype.
There isn’t any one proper way to handle a situation like this.
It’s probably the “little woman” attitude you were giving off that made her mad.
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Elizabeth3
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Ask her if she would like to learn how to shoot and if she thinks there should be two guns. That way if she’s handling the kids and the intruder gets past you, she would also have a way to be the next line of defense.
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alice24
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This.
I can shoot very well, worked as a security in the past and I do our financial stuff. I work best in emergency situations and have problems rather with unchanging tasks… My husband’s skills are more on working stable, long term, with patience. It would neither logical nor healthy for our family and spiritual life to change this.
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Irishmom2
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Why is everyone so set on deciding what the OP should have in his marriage? Are he and his future wife (whoever that ends up being) not allowed to decide who does what, and if they will choose traditional roles or not? I hear a lot of the word equal getting thrown around here. Marriage is not always equal despite what people think. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but it is not always equal.
If the OP is comfortable with him shooting a gun, and his wife is not interested in guns, is there anything wrong with him being the one to defend them? I don’t understand why everyone is pushing for the OP to admit things need to be equal, or admit what their roles are. That is between them.
If the OP is comfortable with him shooting a gun, and his wife is not interested in guns, is there anything wrong with him being the one to defend them? I don’t understand why everyone is pushing for the OP to admit things need to be equal, or admit what their roles are. That is between them.
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Elizabeth3
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Amen sister. A lot of couples (both the husband and wife) prefer more traditional roles and are happy that way. It’s certainly not wrong in any way.
Nope. I also don’t get why some women are offended by the wife being the one who tends to the kids in this scenario, as if that’s somehow a lesser role to directly guide them to safety or be able to call for back up.
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alice24
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I think the reason why some of us were a bit worried was that the OP possibly feels the need to live in a certain role pattern with his future wife that is not skill- supported or good for the personal talents of both spouses, only because he thinks this was a christian obligation. Of course nothing is wrong with a man with gun skills and a rather caregiving wife.
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gcshapero
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I beg your pardon, but when we talked, we went over the given roles by God. If she’s a better shot, then perhaps that’s where it’s necessary, but the best we had was hypothetical for the most part.
I was not giving her the “little woman” attitude. Is it demeaning for women to be naturally better nurturers? Is it wrong to say that as as husband and father, I would take joy in putting myself in front of them to first make sure they are OK? What is so wrong with acknowledging this feminine trait in women that makes them so valuable? There is nothing shameful in this, and women shouldn’t be made to feel this way, nor should men feel ashamed of masculinity.
The best thing a husband and father can do is to mimic Christ in the home. It’s why it is the domestic Church. So he must act as priest, prophet, and king. And just as Christ sacrificed himself for us, the husband must be prepared to do the same. This is why the submission of the wife to the husband is not one based on tyranny, but rather on the mere fact that it’s because Christ loved and offered himself first – so must the husband. Husbands that use the submission subject so at to control their wives are misunderstanding it and abusing it. That is NOT what we’re talking about, and I’d agree that approach should be disavowed entirely.
It’s not a put down to say that women have been given a natural gift of this. This is something that makes women incredibly valuable and men cannot duplicate to the same degree on a natural level. To make this claim that men and women are totally the same demeans both genders.
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Lara
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Wife to husband: If we had fallen off a ship and a man-eating shark was coming towards me, would you save me?
Husband: Are you kidding? It’s a MAN-eating shark! (ie. no)
Husband: Are you kidding? It’s a MAN-eating shark! (ie. no)
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Lea101
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Honestly I don’t think anyone is belittling stereotypical feminine traits. They’re more upset over the ‘stereotype’ of it. Even in your reply, you’re acting like all women are natural nurturers and because of that, they’re so amazing. I’m not. Am I less valuable since that’s what make us so valuable? Did God not give me this gift? Now obviously I don’t think you hold that opinion (I hope), but sometimes/a lot of the times words like that can stinggggg. Especially for religious, ‘non girly girls’, since they have been hearing this allll the time. And hence, some of the responses you get.
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gcshapero
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Of course there are a lot of what ifs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but this discussion was about, on a general level, what happens if XY and Z. In our scenario, it was simply if we’re at home, everyone is in bed, and an intruder comes into the house. All depending, I said the best option MIGHT be that she run to the kids’ room, lock the door, and call the police while in there while I confront him; “Stay where you are. I have a gun and if you take one more step, you’re getting it!”
If he is already in our room, and she can’t leave, then that’s different. If he came in through the kids’ room, that’s also different. If I’m suffering a heart attack and I can’t move and only she can, that’s also different. Lots of what ifs. The discussion was first and foremost to establish our most useful qualities but also what our positions are as a family.
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gcshapero
Guest
That may be. She asked me “So is the least nurturing woman on the planet still more nurturing than the most nurturing man?” I replied, “No. Aileen Wuornos is less nurturing than Mr. Rogers.”
Obviously there will always be exceptions.
I made sure that we discussed mostly us knowing each of us well and what we seemed to be capable of. I also highlighted the Church’s position. I made sure she understood it was by no means my demeaning her, but rather highlighting what I value in her and how that can translate well within a family dynamic.
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Elizabeth3
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LOL. Good answer.
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Lea101
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I was especially referring to your wording in the post I commented, which you didn’t really acknowledge here.
It’s all in the way you choose to phrase it.
It’s all in the way you choose to phrase it.
Eg constantly being an ‘exception’ as if we’re less woman than someone else is exhausting. So obviously someone will bite because we would want to simply be seen as normal rather than an exception to the rule constantly because of who we are.
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