Disagreement on Makeup/Decorum

[gcshapero]

Eg constantly being an ‘exception’ as if we’re less woman than someone else is exhausting. So obviously someone will bite because we would want to simply be seen as normal rather than an exception to the rule constantly because of who we are.

No, exceptions are not less men or women. I said that being more of a nurturer is a feminine trait where as protector/provider is more of a masculine one, by nature. Not everyone is automatically inclined to these traits, and this doesn’t demean their value as men and women, but it does mean it becomes an exception to the rule.

It’s just an observation.

 

[Elizabeth3]

She asked me “So is the least nurturing woman on the planet still more nurturing than the most nurturing man?”

I made sure that we discussed mostly us knowing each of us well and what we seemed to be capable of.

It seems like she may be running two different themes through her head at the same time during the conversation and flip-flopping between general attitudes and sterotypes of men and women and wanting to dispute that and also speaking of what she personally thinks about her own capabilities and desires.

The key in your conversations with her would be to understand which is which when she’s talking or to be clear to her that when you are talking about the reality of who you are and who she is, that she needs to focus on that and not worry about whether it falls into a traditional stereotype or not. Assure her that if something does fall along more traditional lines that it’s not for the sake of tradition or roles but simply an authentic acceptance of each other’s strengths and abilities.

 

[gcshapero]

The key in your conversations with her would be to understand which is which when she’s talking or to be clear to her that when you are talking about the reality of who you are and who she is, that she needs to focus on that and not worry about whether it falls into a traditional stereotype or not. Assure her that if something does fall along more traditional lines that it’s not for the sake of tradition or roles but simply an authentic acceptance of each other’s strength’s and abilities.

This is a great approach. I really appreciate this. I think it has been expressed badly on my part and should be presented more clearly. Many thanks!

 

[Lea101]

If being nurturing is what makes women so valuable, would a woman who is not nurturing be less valuable?

Also, the idea that a man can never fully be as nurturing as a woman is rather confusing. As you said, a man can be more nurturing than a woman.

This is not to say that men and women are exactly the same, but understanding that they have a certain…intensity of some qualities that differ on average. + understanding that all of us are extremely unique and should not be reduced to stereotypes + finally understanding that these qualities are both a result of nature (eg the effects of testosterone on both sexes) AND nurture (eg dad always insisting his boy must be macho, treating young girls like young mommys etc)

 

[gcshapero]

If being nurturing is what makes women so valuable, would a woman who is not nurturing be less valuable?

Also, the idea that a man can never fully be as nurturing as a woman is rather confusing. As you said, a man can be more nurturing than a woman.

This is not to say that men and women are exactly the same, but understanding that they have a certain…intensity of some qualities that differ on average. + understanding that all of us are extremely unique and should not be reduced to stereotypes + finally understanding that these qualities are both a result of nature (eg the effects of testosterone on both sexes) AND nurture (eg dad always insisting his boy must be macho, treating young girls like young mommys etc)

Every human, from the most capable to those in severe dependence, are by default valuable as they are all made in God’s image – from womb to tomb.

The nurturing trait, often found in women, is one that is extremely valued. Some women may not have that trait in them – perhaps they have other gifts to offer. It doesn’t reduce their value as women. But this doesn’t mean that this one specific trait, which is most found in women, and done intentionally and I think done by design by God, is not something that should be reduced either.

It’s OK to notice patterns. The pattern tends to be that women are often more nurturing. Just because some women don’t have this trait doesn’t mean 1) that they can be treated as second banana, but 2) nor should women who do hold this trait, and it’s a trait that should be revered.

With all due respect, it’s going to be impossible for me to address every single what-if and exception. I am not trying to be politically correct – I’m only stating a pattern.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

It is very possible that this wasn’t discussed very clearly between us and we kept missing each other’s points.

Yes. There is nothing inherent about you being a man that makes you better able to do these things. There is nothing about being a man that gives you a right to offer the final veto. As a man, however, you may be better equipped with muscles or other skills that may give you an advantage.

I can shoot very well, worked as a security in the past and I do our financial stuff. I work best in emergency situations and have problems rather with unchanging tasks… My husband’s skills are more on working stable, long term, with patience. It would neither logical nor healthy for our family and spiritual life to change this.

Yep. I am the keeper of the finances. Hubby could do them but he’s really out of his element and not that great. Perhaps better than the average American, but not nearly as good as I am. However, when it comes to fixing things around the house it IS his time to shine. He’s just better at repairing. He cleans better than I do, but I cook better than he does (even grilling). It’s a huge give and take.

And like you mention, those roles are never stagnant. I’ve been busy repairing something and he makes dinner occasionally. To make it sound so rigid as if there is an inherent masculinity to certain activities is not good.

Is it demeaning for women to be naturally better nurturers?

Yes and no. You may be better nurturer than her despite what is typical.

Is it wrong to say that as as husband and father, I would take joy in putting myself in front of them to first make sure they are OK?

Take joy? Yeah that’s kind of odd.

What is so wrong with acknowledging this feminine trait in women that makes them so valuable?

When you are talking to and about one woman, yes. Because that one woman might not have the traits.

I know a few SAHD families where mom works. They are exceedingly happy families. Mom likes to be in the corporate world, she likes being a lawyer or an accountant or whatever. She enjoys seeing a paycheck. Dad enjoys watching the kids, doing all the fun and not-so-fun (and often mind-numbing) day to day stuff. To imply that he is not masculine and his wife not feminine is silliness.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

With all due respect, it’s going to be impossible for me to address every single what-if and exception. I am not trying to be politically correct – I’m only stating a pattern.

And therin lies the problem. You are looking to marry a PERSON, not a pattern. I think, perhaps, she’s also picking up on that. You aren’t discussing every other woman. You are discussing you, her and your potential family.

 

[phil19034]

I have been seeing someone since October. She’s a very sweet devout Catholic woman and we have become very serious in our relationship.

That said, we have a few small disagreements. They are small now, but I’m wondering if these things which seem trivial now will grow.

One of these that we’ve been talking about, or rather debating on, is the subject of makeup. When I first met her, I thought she did wear makeup (though very little). She had mentioned that she is against makeup and finds it sinful.

When I told her that I disagree and that it’s a matter of what is decorous for each person’s objective calling by God, she still claimed it was wrong. When I had mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas’s position on women’s cosmetics (seriously, her wrote about it), he wrote:

“In the case of married women: “If a married woman adorn herself in order to please her husband, she can do this without sin.”

She said this was stupid.

Needless to say, I think she is absolutely wrong. Nonetheless, I’m not in any sort of position where I demand she wears it. However, I do think that if we get to a position where we are married and have a daughter, I don’t want her teaching her that it is intrinsically a sin when I not only think it isn’t, but I even think it is good if done according to modesty and decorum.

How does one approach this?

I think you should let this go.

While makeup is not sinful, in of itself, the reason individual women use make up could be. While many (if not most) wear it in a non-sinful way, there are some who are very vain and who are obsessed over makeup.

The fact that SHE thinks make up is wrong and most likely would not let a potential daughter use it isn’t not really a bad thing.

The fact that you thought she wore a little while she was wearing none means she must be very beautiful. Consider yourself lucky that you have a woman who is beautiful on both the inside & out.

Let it go and be at peace.

God Bless!

BTW- just a question: does she believe it’s always sinful or would she wear it at a formal event or wedding? Just curious.

 

[Lea101]

My point isn’t that you express every single what if.

It’s more of: don’t be shocked when you get unhappy responses when you over generalize. Obviously if you read your previous posts, you would see that it didn’t have the same message as the post I’m replying to. So yeah, just pointing out how you phrase your words can drastically change the meaning.

From “_______ is what makes women valuable” to “everyone is valuable, I’m just saying that the trait is valuable too” (paraphrased of course) But you get my point.

 

[gcshapero]

OK, with all due respect, it seems I now have to be more specific in talking about she and I.

She is indeed a far better nurturer than I am. I am great with kids and love them, and they seem to love me, but she tends to have more of a nurturing ability that I don’t have, and it’s amazing – and I love her for that.

When I say I take joy in taking on that sacrifice, I meant exactly that. It is a joy to take that responsibility because it means I can participate in God’s calling for me. It’s like the mysterious joy found in suffering.

 

[gcshapero]

I think you should let this go.

While makeup is not sinful, in of itself, the reason individual women use make up could be. While many (if not most) wear it in a non-sinful way, there are some who are very vain and who are obsessed over makeup.

The fact that SHE thinks make up is wrong and most likely would not let a potential daughter use it isn’t not really a bad thing.

The fact that you thought she wore a little while she was wearing none means she must be very beautiful. Consider yourself lucky that you have a woman who is beautiful on both the inside & out.

Let it go and be at peace.

God Bless!

BTW- just a question: does she believe it’s always sinful or would she wear it at a formal event or wedding? Just curious.

I understand some things should be let go, but this isn’t so cut-and-dry. This isn’t about HER wearing makeup. We both know that makeup CAN be used sinfully. It ultimately comes down to principle and how we raise our kids and not being unevenly yoked.

 

[Lea101]

I would ask her if she would wear makeup on her wedding day. Completely bare faced.

It’s funny how a lot of women would claim it’s sinful but they would wear a little something on certain events.

Anyway personally I would ask her why she believes it and on whose authority. Clearly not the Church because it says that makeup is perfectly neutral. So I would ask her that. If she would give you an indication that the Church is wrong…idk, I wouldn’t be with that person?

 

[Canvas]

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[gcshapero]

I would ask her if she would wear makeup on her wedding day. Completely bare faced.

It’s funny how a lot of women would claim it’s sinful but they would wear a little something on certain events.

Anyway personally I would ask her why she believes it and on whose authority. Clearly not the Church because it says that makeup is perfectly neutral. So I would ask her that. If she would give you an indication that the Church is wrong…idk, I wouldn’t be with that person?

I think I already know the answer to that would be no. Which is absolutely fine with me. I think she’d especailly avoid wearing makeup on her face at the wedding because she finds it to be sinful – she wouldn’t want to proceed with this sacrament in that way. She drew a hard line on this one.

I playfully baited her saying “It’s easy for someone as pretty as you to claim it’s wrong.” I pointed out Church teaching and what Thomas Aquinas wrote in the Suma. She said “This is only one saint.” She’s very well educated in the faith, but this one confused me because it almost seemed like her understanding of the value of the doctors of the Church and how the Church endorses their conclusions went out the window.

I think this is also why it’s important. I want to ensure we are abiding by Church teaching entirely.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

I think this discussion has gotten a little off-topic. If you want, maybe you should continue discussing marriage gender roles in a different thread.

 

[phil19034]

I think you are wise to consider this. There could be many other things on which you disagree and what appears trivial may be the tip of the iceberg.

Perhaps she would listen to some well respected Catholic women like https://leahdarrow.com/

or http://teresatomeo.com/ (thinking of her “Extreme Makeover” book).

She is holding as sinful something which is truly morally neutral.

@gcshapero this is good advise.

I would also recommend recommend you purchase this CD or MP3 talk from Leah Darrow

Made for Greatness: Runway Model Turns to Christ - Lighthouse Catholic Media

God Bless

 

[redbetta]

I think you are right to be worried. What if you two end up having a kid who goes through a phase of bad acne and she won’t let them use makeup to save them from humiliation in public?

But, if she feels even moderate amounts of makeup is sinful, I imagine she feels plenty of other innocuous things are sinful. I’d wait and see if additional problems present themselves.

 

[gcshapero]

I think you are right to be worried. What if you two end up having a kid who goes through a phase of bad acne and she won’t let them use makeup to save them from humiliation in public?

Indeed, I brought this up too so as to figure out where she drew the line. I had mentioned my friend’s mom when she was dying of cancer and how she and her daughter applied makeup together so as to boost morale. I thought that was a beautiful situation and shoudl have been encouraged.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Kids are ultimate bs detectors.

The kids live in a perpetual state of conflict because they like something their mom thinks is sinful and should be avoided

This.

Heck, this is so the crux, it is why mixed religion marriages can be problematic!!!

 

[TheLittleLady]

Funny!!

One serious question, does her mom, grandmother, sister wear cosmetics?