Disagreement on Makeup/Decorum

[ShowersofRoses]

Indeed, I brought this up too so as to figure out where she drew the line. I had mentioned my friend’s mom when she was dying of cancer and how she and her daughter applied makeup together so as to boost morale. I thought that was a beautiful situation and shoudl have been encouraged.

That is a lovely example. Applying the make-up or getting a manicure would be two great ways to boost morale and make some beautiful memories. What was her response to this?

 

[gcshapero]

Yes. She is from a beautiful Bolivian family. Her immediate family is entirely made up of women (her father is not in the picture).

Her sisters and her mother along with all of her local cousins and aunts wear makeup. She’s the only one.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Last chain reply, I promise!!

Ask your priest if you guys can pay a fee to take the FOCUS inventory (honestly, it should be available to those who are seriously dating, IMHO)

 

[gcshapero]

That is a lovely example. Applying the make-up or getting a manicure would be two great ways to boost morale and make some beautiful memories. What was her response to this?

She was reluctant to accept it. She thought ideally it shoudln’t have happened, but understands that perhaps the goal was to make her look more like herself. When I said that the goal was to boost morale even if it glammed her up, then would that be wrong? I didn’t get a clear answer on that.

 

[gcshapero]

Ask your priest if you guys can pay a fee to take the FOCUS inventory (honestly, it should be available to those who are seriously dating, IMHO)

I don’t know what that is, but I will research it. I want us to speak with a priest.

 

[phil19034]

I understand some things should be let go, but this isn’t so cut-and-dry. This isn’t about HER wearing makeup. We both know that makeup CAN be used sinfully. It ultimately comes down to principle and how we raise our kids and not being unevenly yoked.

Have you ever asked to explain why she feels makeup is sinful? What is the root of her thoughts on this? What philosophical and theological paths did she take in her mind to come up with this?

Perhaps she really feels that makeup is a near occasion to sin?

I know women who have sworn off makeup as sinful and later change their mind.

NOTE: I would highly recommend that you do not attempt to convince her that makeup is not sinful, but rather that it’s not always sinful. In other words, makeup is morally neutral and the sin only comes into effect based on the use.

Finally, is this the only issue you have with her? Or are there any more?

God Bless

 

[Allegra]

This is such a minor issue of prudential judgement. Reasonable people can disagree on whether or not to wear makeup and how much is appropriate and modest. You should be able to compromise. Do you think she would be okay if you kept it down to a light foundation and natural tones of lip gloss? Obviously avoid wearing bright colors on the lips. There’s nothing worse than when you go out in public not realizing your husband left lip smacks on your neck! (How embarrassing!) And maybe she’d be cool if you kept your eye-liner and shadow to a natural hue? Or do you really prefer the smokey eye look?

 

[ShowersofRoses]

Honestly, I find her perspective to be perplexing…especially with the above example, when it was a beautiful moment with a dying mother. Has she read in Song of Solomon and other places about the bride bedecking herself with her jewels and ornaments? I don’t see anything wrong with a woman delighting in her femininity and applying make-up, nail polish, hair color, etc. to make herself feel and look her best if she wishes to do so. To not enjoy make-up is one thing, but to call it sinful for others is a very legalistic attitude.

I assume she is intelligent and wouldn’t have such a perspective simply because she doesn’t feel confident in how to apply make-up, so she just condemns it all entirely? To do so would be very childish, but who knows? At some point she picked up this idea, which makes me wonder how many other innocuous things she thinks are sinful. You’ll just have to keep gently discussing this all with her and see what you can live with/compromise on.

 

[gcshapero]

Have you ever asked to explain why she feels makeup is sinful? What is the root of her thoughts on this? What philosophical and theological paths did she take in her mind to come up with this?

Perhaps she really feels that makeup is a near occasion to sin?

I know women who have sworn off makeup as sinful and later change their mind.

NOTE: I would highly recommend that you do not attempt to convince her that makeup is not sinful, but rather that it’s not always sinful. In other words, makeup is morally neutral and the sin only comes into effect based on the use.

Finally, is this the only issue you have with her? Or are there any more?

God Bless

God bless you, Phil.

Yes, we’ve gone into all of that already, very thoroughly in fact.

I was trying to figure out if she believed it was sinful, neutral, sometimes good but mostly bad, always bad, sometimes neutral, etc.

It seems her opinion is that it is intrinsically sinful. When we both looked over the details with modesty and decorum according to the Church and what Aquinas wrote, her conclusion was that she just doesn’t believe that, but based it off of nothing. Other times she said she just thinks it looks dumb – when I said that she is now basing her own opinion of taste, that cannot be counted as objective morality. She then doubled down and said that she just thinks it’s wrong.

It’s very odd. She’s very well-informed in the faith, very devout, and very well-educated (holds an MS in Psychology). This discussion has been almost backwards and has thrown be into a tailspin because this will come back to bite us if we have kids and don’t figure out how to handle these disagreements.

 

[gcshapero]

Has she read in Song of Solomon and other places about the bride bedecking herself with her jewels and ornaments? I don’t see anything wrong with a woman delighting in her femininity and applying make-up, nail polish, hair color, etc. to make herself feel and look her best if she wishes to do so. To not enjoy make-up is one thing, but to call it sinful for others is a very legalistic attitude.

YES! I explained this passage, and she said “Other passages include things that are immoral.” I then explained how this passage talked about it in favor of it. I said either we must logically come to the conclusion that makeup can be a good and is not sinful in itself OR the Holy Spirit was wrong for guiding the bishops to accept this as valid Scripture.

Obviously the Holy Spirit didn’t make a mistake.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

All I can say is if you feel a need to make a thread that goes 80 posts over the fact that she thinks makeup is bad but tattoos are good, you’re not ready to get married.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

It’s very odd. She’s very well-informed in the faith, very devout, and very well-educated (holds an MS in Psychology). This discussion has been almost backwards and has thrown be into a tailspin because this will come back to bite us if we have kids and don’t figure out how to handle these disagreements.

And this is really the crux of the issue. She is being completely illogical and will not yield with a reasonable position. It appears as if she’s throwing “sin” in as an excuse as to shut down the argument. This will not work with teenage children. “Mommy said it’s a sin” tends not to even work with gradeschool children.

I tell my niece and my daughters that makeup is expensive, takes time, and even the “skin curative” stuff can be unhygienic because it can grow bacteria and clog pores. That nail polish can only be used outdoors because it’s horifficly airborne toxic. But I would never call any of that a sin.

And in this current social climate it’s VITAL to ensure that things that are opinions aren’t simply thrown in the sin box. Save that for stuff that matters…stealing, lying, cheating…etc

 

[ShowersofRoses]

NOTE: I would highly recommend that you do not attempt to convince her that makeup is not sinful, but rather that it’s not always sinful. In other words, makeup is morally neutral and the sin only comes into effect based on the use.

I would mostly agree with this, that make-up in and of itself is morally neutral and not sinful…but I’m having a hard time picturing when it absolutely could be called sinful at all. Even when someone mistakenly or on purpose applies what we judge to be “too much,” who are we to judge? Honestly, there are MUCH bigger fish to fry. Should keep our eyes on our own faults in this case, I think.

 

[gcshapero]

All I can say is if you feel a need to make a thread that goes 80 posts over the fact that she thinks makeup is bad but tattoos are good, you’re not ready to get married.

It’s a bit less trivial than that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Sorry, I disagree.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

And in this current social climate it’s VITAL to ensure that things that are opinions aren’t simply thrown in the sin box. Save that for stuff that matters…stealing, lying, cheating…etc

Agree 100%!

 

[gcshapero]

And in this current social climate it’s VITAL to ensure that things that are opinions aren’t simply thrown in the sin box. Save that for stuff that matters…stealing, lying, cheating…etc

The thing is I too would want to teach our children right from wrong, including venial sins. So if makeup was indeed sinful in itself, I’d be with her. It’s just that we disagree and we haven’t found a way to handle it.

 

[Canvas]

That is really disturbing. It is one thing if she plain doesn’t like makeup or she is allergic to certain cosmetics. I can see if she was from a fundamentalist Protestant sect—some of those groups think virtually anything is a sin—why she would persist in an irrational belief. Or if she suffered from scrupulosity. But you don’t seem to indicate anything else really irrational about her ideas. Very weird.

 

[1ke]

I was not giving her the “little woman” attitude.

It felt like it from your description.

Is it demeaning for women to be naturally better nurturers?

It’s not demeaning, but it is a stereotype. I do know many women who are much more nurturing than their husbands, but I also know women I would not call nurturing and fathers who are the nurturer. And yet others who are both very nurturing.

Is it wrong to say that as as husband and father, I would take joy in putting myself in front of them to first make sure they are OK?

No. But, I’d take a bullet for my husband too.

What would be “wrong” is saying only men should sacrifice or can sacrifice or are meant to sacrifice. That is how your post came across.

What is so wrong with acknowledging this feminine trait in women that makes them so valuable?

Nothing. that isn’t how your post came across. I was merely theorizing how it might have come across patronizingly and therefore garnered some ire. Theorizing, because you know… I wasn’t there.

So he must act as priest, prophet, and king

All the baptized are anointed priest, prophet, and king. Women are anointed at baptism priest, prophet, and king. Saying a man must “act as priest prophet and king” while implying a woman does not… nope.

To make this claim that men and women are totally the same demeans both genders.

I don’t believe anyone here has made such a claim. Including me. I completely agree regarding complementarity of the biological sexes.

I don’t agree with some of your ideas of gender “roles” which are more based on stereotypes than Church teaching.

 

[Elizabeth3]

All I can say is if you feel a need to make a thread that goes 80 posts over the fact that she thinks makeup is bad but tattoos are good, you’re not ready to get married.

How is he supposed to know how much attention his post is going to generate? To be fair, it got off track in many comments talking about gender roles.

I think his concern has nothing to do with being ready to get married and is pretty valid considering she thinks it’s intrinsically evil all the time. It may be a red flag pointing to other rigid views or that when given facts that dispute her position she’d rather be right than concede she may have to think about it some more. Not a good trait for a possible future mom to have.