Disagreement on Makeup/Decorum

[Allegra]

Is it at all possible that her concise, and seemingly extreme and unthoughtful answers, are simply an indication that she simply doesn’t like wearing makeup and resents your pressure her to change her appearance to “please you”? Let me put it this way. Many, if not most, women upon being told that they should wear makeup would take that as an insult to their natural appearance. If a man brought up scripture to try to convince me that he was entitled to me wearing makeup or dressing in a certain way, he wouldn’t even need to consider my “fringe beliefs” because I would drop his butt so fast it wouldn’t even be an issue. She must really like you.

Anyway, the Scripture you quote states that when a woman dresses up to please her husband it is “not a sin”. It does not say that it is a requirement. It also indicates that the same use of makeup in other situations could actually be sinful. Perhaps it is prudent of your girlfriend to avoid such situations, unless you keep her in a tent in your backyard where only you can see her.

Finally, I am a woman that doesn’t wear makeup. I never wore makeup. My husband loved me before and he loves me now. I also have a daughter. I have no intention of instructing her in changing her appearance in order to be acceptable or “pleasing” to anyone. If she asks me if doing such is a “sin”, I would have to honestly answer “no”. If she asks me if it is “wise”, I will whole-heartedly tell her “no”. Its a soul-crushing, endless endeavor in a world that does nothing but objectify women from every angle. Furthermore, I would prefer that she not date or marry the type of man who is “pleased” by a woman who feels obligated to alter her appearance for him. In my opinion, the outcome of such a relationship is not likely to bring her peace and joy.

 

[Elizabeth3]

Armchair psychologist here, but, I would not be surprised if there has been some words or actions from one or some of those other women that has skewed her thinking.

I was thinking the same thing although on a little different line of thought in that if her father isn’t in the picture could there have been an issue where he may have been abusive or controlling in some way and it’s been drilled in her head by her mother to NEVER be vulnerable with men. Maybe that’s why she’s being so rigid and not even considering a different POV. Men must not win at all costs. Of course, this is getting a little “out there” but may be worth looking into. It would be a good thing to know in general.

 

[gcshapero]

Is it at all possible that her concise, and seemingly extreme and unthoughtful answers, are simply an indication that she simply doesn’t like wearing makeup and resents your pressure her to change her appearance to “please you”? Let me put it this way. Many, if not most, women upon being told that they should wear makeup would take that as an insult to their natural appearance. If a man brought up scripture to try to convince me that he was entitled to me wearing makeup or dressing in a certain way, he wouldn’t even need to consider my “fringe beliefs” because I would drop his butt so fast it wouldn’t even be an issue. She must really like you.

Anyway, the Scripture you quote states that when a woman dresses up to please her husband it is “not a sin”. It does not say that it is a requirement. It also indicates that the same use of makeup in other situations could actually be sinful. Perhaps it is prudent of your girlfriend to avoid such situations, unless you keep her in a tent in your backyard where only you can see her.

Finally, I am a woman that doesn’t wear makeup. I never wore makeup. My husband loved me before and he loves me now. I also have a daughter. I have no intention of instructing her in changing her appearance in order to be acceptable or “pleasing” to anyone. If she asks me if doing such is a “sin”, I would have to honestly answer “no”. If she asks me if it is “wise”, I will whole-heartedly tell her “no”. Its a soul-crushing, endless endeavor in a world that does nothing but objectify women from every angle. Furthermore, I would prefer that she not date or marry the type of man who is “pleased” by a woman who feels obligated to alter her appearance for him. In my opinion, the outcome of such a relationship is not likely to bring her peace and joy.

These are all great questions and points.

Indeed, I made sure she understood that by no means was this ever about her specifically wearing makeup so as to please me or anyone. I’ve reiterated to her how she’s naturally beautiful (she is) and that whether she was or not, I’m especially drawn to her heart and faith in God. This is true.

I made sure that she understood that this was more so about 1) how to handle our own kids if we get to that point, 2) how we handle disagreements, and 3) how we handle communication and compromises.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Great point. That could be it. Her sisters and her mother are all very Godly women and very loving people. This doesn’t mean none of them could have possibly done something at some point that scarred her, but they themselves find no issue with makeup and remain very faithful to the Church.

Yes. I think it might not be bad to get a professional involved. When you mentioned she had no male role model I was wondering if it was something more.

You’re right, this isn’t about makeup. And it is very bizarre she has chosen this one thing and labeled it sinful without any reason when she seems like an otherwise reasonable person.

 

[Allegra]

While I agree with this post, I suspect that the OPs girlfriend doesn’t actually believe that makeup is “sinful” in and of itself. While calling everything you don’t like “the devil” is an immature way of expressing your dislike for something, and not at all beneficial when raising children who you need accurately instruct in determining what is and isn’t actually evil, I suspect there’s a good chance that she just wants her boyfriend to stop bothering her about wearing makeup. I think the fact in evidence that she doesn’t see a problem with tattoos leans me toward this conclusion.

If this is the case, maybe the OP should have a discussion about why it’s important to be accurate in language when discussing things and practices you don’t care for. My husband had a bad habit of speaking in a weird sort of hyperbole regarding morally neutral things he didn’t like.
“Vegetarians are the devil.”
“Bronies are idiots.”
“People who use selfie sticks should be shot.”
“If any child of mine were to show up with their hair like that, I’d disown them!”
He thought he was being funny, I guess.
I had to explain before our daughter was born that using statements like “Mickey Mouse is evil,” is really confusing to a child. You are supposed to teach them that “evil” is a real thing and it doesn’t just mean things we don’t like or even things we think are unwise or potentially harmful. When you use statements like that, aside from the high potential for humiliating your wife in public, you are undermining yourself as a parent. A dad who routinely claims that wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt is a sin has no credibility when he has to talk to his child about something that really is sinful.

 

[Allegra]

We AREN’T in a position to judge an individual’s use of makeup. However, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a line that an individual woman crosses where her use of makeup becomes about vanity. There are women who damage their natural skin, trying to pick at it and cover it until it becomes “perfect”. It’s probably better described as a “vice” than a “sin”, because there isn’t a specific application of product that draws the line between sinning and not sinning. However, having an attitude of vanity is definitely not psychologically or spiritually healthy.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

While I agree with this post, I suspect that the OPs girlfriend doesn’t actually believe that makeup is “sinful” in and of itself. While calling everything you don’t like “the devil” is an immature way of expressing your dislike for something, and not at all beneficial when raising children who you need accurately instruct in determining what is and isn’t actually evil, I suspect there’s a good chance that she just wants her boyfriend to stop bothering her about wearing makeup. I think the fact in evidence that she doesn’t see a problem with tattoos leans me toward this conclusion.

If this is the case, maybe the OP should have a discussion about why it’s important to be accurate in language when discussing things and practices you don’t care for. My husband had a bad habit of speaking in a weird sort of hyperbole regarding morally neutral things he didn’t like.
“Vegetarians are the devil.”
“Bronies are idiots.”
“People who use selfie sticks should be shot.”
“If any child of mine were to show up with their hair like that, I’d disown them!”
He thought he was being funny, I guess.
I had to explain before our daughter was born that using statements like “Mickey Mouse is evil,” is really confusing to a child. You are supposed to teach them that “evil” is a real thing and it doesn’t just mean things we don’t like or even things we think are unwise or potentially harmful. When you use statements like that, aside from the high potential for humiliating your wife in public, you are undermining yourself as a parent. A dad who routinely claims that wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt is a sin has no credibility when he has to talk to his child about something that really is sinful.

Which is why this answer

That’s actually exactly what I asked her – not the theatre thing (though I did ask her about her opinion on that too). I asked her directly if she’d support me in that decision and I didn’t get a direct yes.

paired with this:

I made sure that she understood that this was more so about 1) how to handle our own kids if we get to that point, 2) how we handle disagreements, and 3) how we handle communication and compromises.

Makes me say that it’s a “yellow” flag at this point. It’s not the end of the world but seems to be highly emotional and severely illogical to the point where something bigger is going on, something that could truly impact an otherwise healthy marriage. To me, all yellow flags require professional help, either a priest who knows his stuff or a professional psychologist. However the OP is coming off to his GF is only inflaming her issues.

 

[Allegra]

It sounds like she’s having a hard time putting her feelings into words on the subject. It seems she feels there is a certain “wrongness” about wearing makeup. You have demonstrated that it isn’t sinful, at least not inherently. “Stupid” is a matter of opinion. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between. Maybe the “wrongness” she feels is actually a disgust at the world’s outright rejection of what is objectively, gloriously beautiful, namely, a human person made in the image of God. And/OR disgust at society’s replacement of love and admiration for the natural beauty of God’s creation with lust and objectification of an altered and unnatural “ideal woman”.

 

[Allegra]

I would have been perfectly fine being bare-faced on my wedding day. My mother bullied me into wearing some sort of green slime to keep my face from getting “too red”, and some tinted lip gloss. My face itched all day. “Stupid” would be my assessment of the practice as well. Not “sinful”, necessarily, though I suspect my mother chalked up some time in purgatory fighting with me over it.

 

[Allegra]

It could be highly emotional and illogical, but since it doesn’t sound like the OP is dealing with a person who is highly emotional and illogical, it could also be a case of someone who has a very strong feeling that there is something “wrong” about wearing makeup, but can’t figure out how to put it into articulate language so it comes out as “stupid” and “sinful.”

 

[phil19034]

We AREN’T in a position to judge an individual’s use of makeup. However, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a line that an individual woman crosses where her use of makeup becomes about vanity. There are women who damage their natural skin, trying to pick at it and cover it until it becomes “perfect”. It’s probably better described as a “vice” than a “sin”, because there isn’t a specific application of product that draws the line between sinning and not sinning. However, having an attitude of vanity is definitely not psychologically or spiritually healthy.

@gcshapero I think the poster above made a very good point about how make-up use can become a VICE. Perhaps she is really viewing it from that point of view?

A vice would be a much better word to use instead of sin.

Some women wear make-up fine. And for others, it’s becomes a vice for them.

Also, you said your girlfriend is Bolivian. My mom is Puerto Rican, and in the Hispanic community there are a number of women who take make-up (subjectively speaking) way too far. They “paint” in their eyebrows, very pronounced lipstick, etc. Perhaps she knows some people who take it “too far” according to her? Perhaps she knows some women where makeup has become a vice?

You don’t randomly wake up one day and say “make-up is sinful.” She might have trouble explaining it, but there must be a root to her feelings.

But I do think that in general, if you marry her, you should allow her ban make-up from your potential daughters (if that’s still how she feels). But you can ask her to teach the potential, future daughters that make-up is a vice for many women, but not necessary a sin.

So try that… Maybe vice instead of sin?

 

[phil19034]

It could be highly emotional and illogical, but since it doesn’t sound like the OP is dealing with a person who is highly emotional and illogical, it could also be a case of someone who has a very strong feeling that there is something “wrong” about wearing makeup, but can’t figure out how to put it into articulate language so it comes out as “stupid” and “sinful.”

I think you are on to something with the word “vice,” which you used in a previous post.

 

[gcshapero]

It could be highly emotional and illogical, but since it doesn’t sound like the OP is dealing with a person who is highly emotional and illogical, it could also be a case of someone who has a very strong feeling that there is something “wrong” about wearing makeup, but can’t figure out how to put it into articulate language so it comes out as “stupid” and “sinful.”

Yeah, just for background on her, she’s a very level-headed and structured girl. She’s not irrationally emotional, VERY slow to speak (she thinks before she speaks), and very aware of emotional chastity.

By no means could I count her as being all over the place or a monster.

I suppose that’s why this one specific situation is so confusing. We can disagree on some things, and she’s open to discussing and even looking further into them. This one however is just odd in terms of her dismissing the Church’s teaching.

UPDATE: I did get a text from her (I’m currently at work – ha, I should be on here less actually) and she highlighted that she wants to make sure we discuss this further so that we can know how to support each other the right way. She further went on to say that if our daughter were to want to wear makeup (within reason and at an appropriate age) she wouldn’t make this a hot button issue.

This is certainly a good start.

 

[Lara]

Try to be a nurturer. Leave your feminism behind. It leads nowhere fun.

 

[Irishmom2]

“Vegetarians are the devil.”
“Bronies are idiots.”
“People who use selfie sticks should be shot.”
“If any child of mine were to show up with their hair like that, I’d disown them!”

I totally get his sense of humor.

 

[gcshapero]

“Bronies are idiots.”

…Not hyperbole – this is a mere statement of fact

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Try to be a nurturer. Leave your feminism behind. It leads nowhere fun.

Being a feminist and being a nurturer are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Allegra]

I think this is kind of the point though. Kid’s don’t get the “humor” or the “hyperbole”. When they grow up in a household where the parents routinely claim that everything they dislike is sinful or going to lead to the downfall of society, there’s two possible outcomes. Either the kids learn that their parents are extreme and their opinions on what is sinful is to be taken with a grain of salt, or ignored completely, or they DO take them seriously and perpetuate the idea that people who use selfie sticks are minions of the anti-Christ. Either way, not good. Now it sounds like this sort of expression isn’t a common habit of your girl-friend, so that indicates that she is sincere in her feelings that there is something “wrong” with the use of makeup. Your point that it is not inherently sinful, has been made, but she still doesn’t feel comfortable with it. My guesses are that either she’s reacting to perceived pressure from you to wear makeup, despite your insistence that you are fine if she doesn’t, or that she is confusing the word “sin” which indicates a deliberate act that is inherently wrong with the word “vice” which indicates an act that can be spiritually harmful in certain situations and possibly lead to sin.

 

[gcshapero]

I think this is kind of the point though. Kid’s don’t get the “humor” or the “hyperbole”. When they grow up in a household where the parents routinely claim that everything they dislike is sinful or going to lead to the downfall of society, there’s two possible outcomes. Either the kids learn that their parents are extreme and their opinions on what is sinful is to be taken with a grain of salt, or ignored completely, or they DO take them seriously and perpetuate the idea that people who use selfie sticks are minions of the anti-Christ. Either way, not good. Now it sounds like this sort of expression isn’t a common habit of your girl-friend, so that indicates that she is sincere in her feelings that there is something “wrong” with the use of makeup. Your point that it is not inherently sinful, has been made, but she still doesn’t feel comfortable with it. My guesses are that either she’s reacting to perceived pressure from you to wear makeup, despite your insistence that you are fine if she doesn’t, or that she is confusing the word “sin” which indicates a deliberate act that is inherently wrong with the word “vice” which indicates an act that can be spiritually harmful in certain situations and possibly lead to sin.

I understand, I was only joking.

Yeah, we went over this a lot together. I don’t think she’s confusing the word sin nor misunderstanding it as a vice. I think she is choosing to see it as a sin.

 

[Irishmom2]

UPDATE: I did get a text from her (I’m currently at work – ha, I should be on here less actually) and she highlighted that she wants to make sure we discuss this further so that we can know how to support each other the right way. She further went on to say that if our daughter were to want to wear makeup (within reason and at an appropriate age) she wouldn’t make this a hot button issue.

This is certainly a good start.

Perhaps she is reading this thread.