Disappointed in local Secular Franciscan chapter

[ausculta]

I am really amazed that this thread is still thriving As long as it is, I might as well share my news since it’s still on topic

I was accepted formally as an inquirer last weekend by my local fraternity. I look forward to further discernment and growth. Pray for me

In Christ,

A

 

[Kilo1Mike21]

I am really amazed that this thread is still thriving As long as it is, I might as well share my news since it’s still on topic

I was accepted formally as an inquirer last weekend by my local fraternity. I look forward to further discernment and growth. Pray for me

In Christ,

A

You are in my prayers…I also have made contact with a local Order. Can’t wait to see what it is really about.

 

[JReducation]

The Statutes say: Art.42 s1 “…profession is the solemn ecclesial act by which the candidate …renews the baptismal promises and publicly affirms [the] personal commitment to live the Gospel in the world according to the example of Francis and follow the rule of the sfo.” it nowhere says we are secular or otherwise religious. I disagree with your using the phrase. I think it is confusing.

The phrase was not mine. It was used by the Pope.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[albertziggy]

I am really amazed that this thread is still thriving As long as it is, I might as well share my news since it’s still on topic

I was accepted formally as an inquirer last weekend by my local fraternity. I look forward to further discernment and growth. Pray for me

In Christ,

A

Hi ausculta,

That’s great! You will be truly blessed. I had just completed that stage and am now a Candidate (aka Novice). We will pray for you.

albertziggy

 

[JReducation]

The Statutes say: Art.42 s1 “…profession is the solemn ecclesial act by which the candidate …renews the baptismal promises and publicly affirms [the] personal commitment to live the Gospel in the world according to the example of Francis and follow the rule of the sfo.” ** it nowhere says we are secular or otherwise religious. I disagree with your using the phrase. I think it is confusing**.

Not to stir up a disagreement, but just to show where this came from.

"The Third Order is indeed a religious Order but an altogether new type of community at that time, for while it possesses the spirit of a religious order, it does not obligate its members to take vows."

This is part of an encyclical by Pius XI to the bishops and Cardinals of the world. RITE EXPIATIS

The previous rules were abrogated in 1978 by authority of Paul VI, but not the encyclicals written about the Francisan Family by the popes prior to that. There are several of them.

Pius XII and Leo XIII also use the same terminology in two different encyclicals. To the best of our knowledge, there has never been a separation between the religious life and the secular order in terms of their relationship, but only in terms of how the members of a religious family live out their common charism.

It is also interesting, because to this day the Rule and Constitutions of the Secular Franciscan Order do not obligate the members to make vows of evangelical counsels, but it is not prohibitted either. Many Secular Franciscans do make vows to follow the evangeical counsels while living the Rule and Constitutions of the Secular Franciscan Order.

These vows are recognized by the Church as private vows, while the profession to live according to the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis is a public canonical profession. According to Br. Felice Cangelosi OFM Cap, the Vicar Genral of the Oder of Friars Minor Capuchin says the following about the profession of the Secular Franciscans at the General Chapter of 2008.

**The same elements are also constitutive of religious profession, and this leads us to maintain that the propositum vitae or promise of the Secular Franciscan Penitents are equivalent to a religious profession.

From this we deduce that, while we are not dealing with a religious Order in the strict sense, the title “Order” is eminently fitting for the Secular Franciscan Fraternity. If on the one hand it is not required to have either common life or vows, it is true that the same “Order of Penance” has a Rule approved by the Apostolic See, a novitiate and an irreversible profession: it is in other words a “religious Order” in the wide sense, or a Secular Order.

Consequently the original Franciscan Penitents were not “laymen” or ordinary faithful; they were instead “secular religious”, and as such belonged to the ecclesiastical state.**

Thus, Profession in the Secular Franciscan Order has the dignity of a solemn and religious commitment entered into with God and the Church, and it cannot be considered inferior to that of “religious” – although it remains true that the two professions differ in content, and this difference is due to the multiple action of divine grace in a diversity of charisms.

This language can be very confusing, because it goes back and forth between religious and secular. But the essence of it that today, the Order places its emphasis on the secular canonical state, while at the same time preserving those gifts that it has received from the religious life, especially that of the Friars Minor and the Third Order Regular.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Augustine]

It is also interesting, because to this day the Rule and Constitutions of the Secular Franciscan Order do not obligate the members to make vows of evangelical counsels, but it is not prohibitted either.

FWIW, OCDS, for sure, and TOC, I believe, require its members to make public vows to live the evangelical counsels according to their state in life.

 

[JReducation]

FWIW, OCDS, for sure, and TOC, I believe, require its members to make public vows to live the evangelical counsels according to their state in life.

St. Francis’ logic was that if you vowed to live the Gospel, you could not leave out the evangelical counsels. He did not want the Secular Order to be confused with the Third Order Regular. Therefore, he changed the words of profession.

The Third Order Regular says:

I Br. NN vow and promise to almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, our holy Father Francis and you Brother to observe the Holy Gospel according to the rule of the Order of Penance living in obedience, without property and in chastity all the days of my life.

The Secular Franciscans say:

I Br. NN solemnly promise to observe the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Secular Franciscan Order, in obedience to our holy Father St. Francis, all the days of my life.

Originally, when Francis wrote it, it said “in obedience to Father Francis”. After his death it was changed to our holy Father Francis and our Seraphic Father Francis.

The Father Francis was edited by Pope Paul VI, because he did not want people to think that Francis was a cleric or that the Franciscan family is a clerical family. Pope Paul VI wanted to emphasize the lay character of the three orders.

Also, at the time that Francis wrote the rite of profession, he was the only member of the order who was called Father. Everyone else was Brother. The title Father was adopted by ordained Francicans when the American Provinces adopted it. Even today, it is not used by Franciscans outside of the Americas and is now being dropped by many of the American provinces. It is never used at the international level. Superors especially must always use Brother, Friar and Frater. But that change takes time. The older friars are still used to the Father.

The older Secular Franciscans are still used to the term Brother used by the lay brothers, instead of lay friars.

And the evangelical counsels were considered to be a given if you solemnly promised to follow the Gospel. However, the rite of profession may be changed again, because many people do not understand that the counsels are included in the Gospel and they think that if you join the Secular Franciscans you are not bound to the counsels.

All that Francis wanted to do was not confuse the Third Order Regular with the Third Order Secular. He also wanted to protect the seculars from being excommunicated if they violated the counsels, as was common in those days.

Someday we’ll get the right wording so that it makes sense to everyone.

It’s like my community. We came from the Secular Franciscans. People do not understand when we say that we were founded by St. Francis. We explain that we were never a separate group, but a movement within the Secular Franciscans that evolved into a mendicant brotherhood, much like the OCD evolved from the O’Carm. There was no rupture or no introduction of a new religioius community from the outside.

People often ask why we use OSF instead of SFO. I always use the Carmelites and the Friars Minor as an example, but I think people still have a tough time understanding what happens when there is a trunk and branches in a religious family. Oh well . . .

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Augustine]

The Third Order Regular says:

I Br. NN vow and promise to almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, our holy Father Francis and you Brother to observe the Holy Gospel according to the rule of the Order of Penance living in obedience, without property and in chastity all the days of my life.

The Secular Franciscans say:

I Br. NN solemnly promise to observe the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Secular Franciscan Order, in obedience to our holy Father St. Francis, all the days of my life.

After checking out the words, OCDS actually makes a promise and may make a vow afterwards.

1. 
   *]The Promise:
   I, N., inspired by the Holy Spirit, in response to God’s call, sincerely promise to the Superiors of the Order of the Teresian Carmel and to you, my brothers and sisters, to tend toward evangelical perfection in the spirit of the evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty, obedience, and of the Beatitudes, according to the Constitutions of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, for three years [for the rest of my life]. I confidently entrust this, my Promise, to the Virgin Mary, Mother and Queen of Carmel.
   *]The Vows:
   I, N. , in order to live in union with the Virgin Mary in following JesusChrist, make a vow chastity and obedience to God in the hands of the Superior of the Order of the Teresian Carmel according to the Constitutions of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites for the rest of my life.
   
   

 

[JReducation]

After checking out the words, OCDS actually makes a promise and may make a vow afterwards.

1. 
   *]The Promise:
   I, N., inspired by the Holy Spirit, in response to God’s call, sincerely promise to the Superiors of the Order of the Teresian Carmel and to you, my brothers and sisters, to tend toward evangelical perfection in the spirit of the evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty, obedience, and of the Beatitudes, according to the Constitutions of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, for three years [for the rest of my life]. I confidently entrust this, my Promise, to the Virgin Mary, Mother and Queen of Carmel.
   *]The Vows:
   I, N. , in order to live in union with the Virgin Mary in following JesusChrist, make a vow chastity and obedience to God in the hands of the Superior of the Order of the Teresian Carmel according to the Constitutions of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites for the rest of my life.
   
   

1. 
   That’s an interesting formula. I wonder why it is broken down like that. Do you know?
   
   Is the profession received by a friar or by the Superior of the Secular Carmelites?
   
   In the Franciscan tradition, the profession is always received by the Major Superior of the Order, which is the Provincial or Vice Provincial. In the case of the Poor Clares by the Abbess. The Secular Franciscans have their own Provincial who is also a Secular Franciscan and only he can receive the profession. A friar has to precide at the mass, but may not receive the profession as the friars are not part of the Order and have no jurisdiction in the Order. When they preside at the mass they represent the Church, not the Franciscans. The Franciscans are represented by the Superior of each Franciscan Order.
   
   JR

 

[albertziggy]

This language can be very confusing, because it goes back and forth between religious and secular. But the essence of it that today, the Order places its emphasis on the secular canonical state, while at the same time preserving those gifts that it has received from the religious life, especially that of the Friars Minor and the Third Order Regular.

Fraternally,

JR

Hi Br JR,

Thank you for bringing this up. I guess that if we wish to ‘step up as an Order’, we should get this emphasized. The reaction that the SFO is ‘a religious order BUT NOT IN A STRICT SENSE’ confuses people a lot more, and brings the spirit down. Yet, I also read in an article written by a Dominican, that all Third Orders were considered as Religious Orders back during the 13th Century. I read somewhere that the ‘opposite’ of ‘Secular’ is ‘Regular’.

When will we get this thing right to end the confusion?

Thanks,

albertziggy

 

[JReducation]

Hi Br JR,

Thank you for bringing this up. I guess that if we wish to ‘step up as an Order’, we should get this emphasized. The reaction that the SFO is ‘a religious order BUT NOT IN A STRICT SENSE’ confuses people a lot more, and brings the spirit down. Yet, I also read in an article written by a Dominican, that all Third Orders were considered as Religious Orders back during the 13th Century. I read somewhere that the ‘opposite’ of ‘Secular’ is ‘Regular’.

When will we get this thing right to end the confusion?

Thanks,

albertziggy

The confusion ocurred when religious started to become priests. You had to make a distinction between cleric and lay. Then you had to make a distinction between those in religious communities and those who are not. They were called religious and secular.

Originally, all secular orders were conidered religious orders. For all practical purposes they are. They have a rule, the have a public and permanent profession of some kind. They have a community life. They have a mission and a specific role in the life of the Church.

The difference between them and a traditional religious order was introduced by St. Francis and later adopted by Dominicans, Carmelites and others. St. Francis introduced the idea of living religious life outside of the religious house, in the secular world instead of the cloister of a friary or monastery. St. Francis also inroduced the idea of married people living a religious life while married and rasing their family.

The difference between the secular orders and the regular orders is not in whether or not they are truly religious, as the popes have said, the secular orders are truly religious orders. The difference is in the type of members that they have. The members of secular orders belong to the secular state because they live and work in the secular world.

Nonetheless, they have all the other elements that religious orders have, as I described above. Some even have habits.

I love the Secular Orders because our small congregation is a child of the Secular Franciscans. We were a group of Secular Franciscans who gathered to live in community and we evolved into a regular congregation. There was never a break with the Franciscan family. It was just an evolution on a theme. Our lives are lived in community with all the elements of a religoiius community. Our ministry is different from other religous. We keep our jobs, practice our careers and so forth. The idea is to bring the Gospel to men where they are and men to the Gospel. It’s really the same idea as the Secular Order, but lived in a community of celibate brothers instead of with one’s family or spouse. When not at our secular jobs, we live a contemplative life like that of Francis in the hermitages.

How’s that for a switch!

Fraternally,

JR

 

[albertziggy]

The confusion ocurred when religious started to become priests. You had to make a distinction between cleric and lay. Then you had to make a distinction between those in religious communities and those who are not. They were called religious and secular.

Our lives are lived in community with all the elements of a religoiius community. Our ministry is different from other religous. We keep our jobs, practice our careers and so forth. The idea is to bring the Gospel to men where they are and men to the Gospel. It’s really the same idea as the Secular Order, but lived in a community of celibate brothers instead of with one’s family or spouse. When not at our secular jobs, we live a contemplative life like that of Francis in the hermitages.

How’s that for a switch!

Fraternally,

JR

Hi Br. JR,

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)uts. Hopefully this issue on Third Orders being Religious Orders in the true sense gets settled.

Just one more thing. I saw a website about Franciscan Brothers composed of married and single men living in the World and hold secular jobs. They follow the rule of the TOR but make solemn promises instead of vows. Whether married or single, they are called friars and wear the habit of the Franciscan friar. Those who are married will not remarry when their spouses die. I was wondering if your congregation is related to theirs.

As for me, I do the same things you do, except that when I am not in my secular job, I live a life of a…hermit. You are lucky.

Thanks,

albertziggy

 

[JReducation]

Hi Br. JR,

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)uts. Hopefully this issue on Third Orders being Religious Orders in the true sense gets settled.

Just one more thing. I saw a website about Franciscan Brothers composed of married and single men living in the World and hold secular jobs. They follow the rule of the TOR but make solemn promises instead of vows. Whether married or single, they are called friars and wear the habit of the Franciscan friar. Those who are married will not remarry when their spouses die. I was wondering if your congregation is related to theirs.

As for me, I do the same things you do, except that when I am not in my secular job, I live a life of a…hermit. You are lucky.

Thanks,

albertziggy

We are cousins, LOL. There are several communities of Franciscan brothers like this. All have been cells that have been born within the Secular Franciscan Order. Once you become more self-sustaining, you then become an autonomous community. You follow the TOR rule, which is really the same rule as the Secular Franciscans with the difference of celibacy and community life.

That is how the original TORs started. But they remained bonded as a single order. Whereas today, the newer communities remain attached to their secular brothers and sisters. Each of us is really a cell of the larger Order of St. Francis.

The idea is to have as many communnities as possible, but by remaining attached to a local fraternity of the SFO, you also remain small enough to live the intimacy of Franciscan life and not lose your emphasis on a secular presence, if this makes sense.

I’ll send you more info via PM

Fraternally,

JR

 

[franciscanhobbi]

JReducation, what is the name of your community? Are you a true religious? If you wanted to leave, what level of difficulty would you encounter?
I’m still mixed-up.

 

[franciscanhobbi]

I am in the SFO since 1978. I’ve read many articles, some by the priest-assistants and the National Council, and I’ve never heard before that we are secular religious. I think that if a Pope used it, the term was not meant in the strict sense. Certainly now, I have seen no such reference. Maybe the term and the understanding has been replaced since the new Pauline rule of 1978.

 

[albertziggy]

I’ll send you more info via PM

Fraternally,

JR

Hi Br. JR,

Thanks for your reply. I will need to install the necessary software to get the PM running on my computer. I will let you know once I get things running.

Regards,

albertziggy

 

[JReducation]

I am in the SFO since 1978. I’ve read many articles, some by the priest-assistants and the National Council, and I’ve never heard before that we are secular religious. I think that if a Pope used it, the term was not meant in the strict sense. Certainly now, I have seen no such reference. Maybe the term and the understanding has been replaced since the new Pauline rule of 1978.

I don’t think the term was replaced. I believe that it has fallen into disuse, which is different. To the best of my knowledge, it was first used by Pius XI.

You also asked about our community. We are the Franciscan Brothers of the Poor. We are one of several groups of Francisan Brothers that have been founded by Secular Franciscans. We are a diocesan community of simple vows. To leave we would have to undergo the same process as any other religious community, except that it would be with the local bishop throug the superior and counsel.

Albertziggy said that he found a community like ours some place on the internet. I imagine there are several.

Like us, there are several other communities that have emerged from the Friars Minor, the TOR or the SFO too. Some that come to mind are the Franciscans of the Immaculate, LIttle Brothers of St. Francis. Franciscans of the Reform. Franciscan of the Primitive Observance. Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word (these were founded by Mother Angelica, but received their formation from the Capuchins).

Fraternally,

JR

 

[franciscanhobbi]

Thank you, that clears things up for me. Are you addressed as Brother_____? Have you heard of the monks of adoration? They used to maintain a great website with a live cam of the Eucharist.

Peace, and a gentle day to you.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you, that clears things up for me. Are you addressed as Brother_____? Have you heard of the monks of adoration? They used to maintain a great website with a live cam of the Eucharist.

Peace, and a gentle day to you.

My religious name is Br. Julian Richard.(JR). I have heard about the monks adoration. I did not knowabout the website with the cam on the Eucharist. I’ll have to check it out.

Thanks for the tip.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[franciscanhobbi]

Unfotunately, it has not been active for awhile. They used to post the hours of exposition, and one could have a little window up in the corner of the monitor when it took place.