H
HOPEFUL_IN_UK
Guest
Abbot, could you post links to some of these other threads? Is it really impossible to believe that Mitch is telling the truth?
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H
holdencaulfield
Guest
true.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Yes, i’m not sure whether illicit practices make a Mass invalid, however it looks like either way it is going to be invalid, maybe someone else here can answer your question.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Perhaps do you have any other valid forms of Mass in your area besides the NO, perhaps the Byzantine Rite, maybe a Benedictine Rite?
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Perhaps you should start a petition to show people the necessity of behaving during Mass. Perhaps when people see your pious behavior they will change.
Sounds ok I guess.
No it’s not however I see it as more religious to take it by the tongue, however I don’t see anything blasphemous about taking it by the hands, as long as one takes it properly.
I think that the NO is fine, yet sadly no one celebrates it with respect. Hopefully this will change.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Rejoice, I trust Pope Benedict XVI you should as well, he will fix the errors of the past.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Whats a indult Tridentine Mass?
R
rpp
Guest
First you said:
Many aspects of the SSPX are cult like. They really do say, “We are the only ones who have it right. We are the only true Catholics.” To buy into this is to surrender your intellect. Do you really want to be in a cult? Even if that cult wears vestments, follows a liturgical calendar and hangs a picture of the Pope in the foyer of a chapel?
And the “abuses” you keep referring to, I think the problem here is your own attitude. That you are somehow more holy than a parish priest. THAT is not being humble. That is being arrogant.
Look at what it is doing to you. These delusional posts and outrageous rhetoric. You are calling priests who HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED as being obedient. If they really were obedient, they would not be saying Mass or hearing confessions.
You are on the verge of separating yourself from Holy Mother Church. You are doing EXACTLY what the good Cardinal warned people about. Extended influence to the SSPX in their current state can lead a lay person to become schismatic. We can all see that right here in what you post.
Stop listening to the paranoid ravings of the SSPX promoters. Start listening to your bishop. Stop trying to justify schism, start being humble and realize that Catholic Church has always had many forms of spirituality.
Go to you local parish priest, the one who is in communion with your bishop and Rome. Confess the sin of arrogance and pride. Then obediently sit in the pew and actively participate, without criticizing, in whatever Mass your parish priest celebrates.
And while you are doing this, know that the Mass is valid AND licit, and that Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist.
Let me close with this. I do not speak in anger or impatience. I feel neither emotion as I write. What I do feel is great empathy and fear for you and your family. While what I have said may be blunt, I am not quite certain how else to express it.
There is one thing you mentioned in an earlier post. You mentioned that you were worried that your daughter may start receiving the Holy Eucharist in her hand instead of on her tongue. I can only say that if, as a father, that is one of your greatest worries, then you are certainly a very fortunate man and must have a very fine daughter and family.
Then you said
You were involved with SSPX all along. Your wife has never been separated from it. I do not believe you turned to them in “desperation”. I think you never actually left. Your wife certainly has not. I believe the “desperation” you feel is the paranoia that the SSPX promote.
Many aspects of the SSPX are cult like. They really do say, “We are the only ones who have it right. We are the only true Catholics.” To buy into this is to surrender your intellect. Do you really want to be in a cult? Even if that cult wears vestments, follows a liturgical calendar and hangs a picture of the Pope in the foyer of a chapel?
And the “abuses” you keep referring to, I think the problem here is your own attitude. That you are somehow more holy than a parish priest. THAT is not being humble. That is being arrogant.
Look at what it is doing to you. These delusional posts and outrageous rhetoric. You are calling priests who HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED as being obedient. If they really were obedient, they would not be saying Mass or hearing confessions.
You are on the verge of separating yourself from Holy Mother Church. You are doing EXACTLY what the good Cardinal warned people about. Extended influence to the SSPX in their current state can lead a lay person to become schismatic. We can all see that right here in what you post.
Stop listening to the paranoid ravings of the SSPX promoters. Start listening to your bishop. Stop trying to justify schism, start being humble and realize that Catholic Church has always had many forms of spirituality.
Go to you local parish priest, the one who is in communion with your bishop and Rome. Confess the sin of arrogance and pride. Then obediently sit in the pew and actively participate, without criticizing, in whatever Mass your parish priest celebrates.
And while you are doing this, know that the Mass is valid AND licit, and that Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist.
Let me close with this. I do not speak in anger or impatience. I feel neither emotion as I write. What I do feel is great empathy and fear for you and your family. While what I have said may be blunt, I am not quite certain how else to express it.
There is one thing you mentioned in an earlier post. You mentioned that you were worried that your daughter may start receiving the Holy Eucharist in her hand instead of on her tongue. I can only say that if, as a father, that is one of your greatest worries, then you are certainly a very fortunate man and must have a very fine daughter and family.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Good, post. I don’t know whether he is a lier or not, however you made some great (harsh) but great statements about the SSPX. Regardless of whether they are correct or not about the TLM doesn’t matter because they are suspended schismatic priests. A good Catholic should not attend their services. Is not just the same as attending an Anglican service?
B
bear06
Guest
I am going to mention that this letter was sent to a specific person in a specific circumstance and Msgr. Perl made the extra effort to make all know that. We do know that a person is not necessarily sinning by attending a chapel.
A
Aramis
Guest
It isn’t quite the same; Anglicans lack a valid priesthood, and many teach heresy.
The SSPX are not (yet) as a group Heretics (tho’ some may be), and have valid priesthood.
R
rpp
Guest
I was a bit harsh wasn’t I.
Sorry about that.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Oh, yes I know that however they seem to be moving in that direction.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
It’s not a problem with me because I understand why this is a tense issue. The SSPX feel like the Church has alienated them, we fell like they are a schismatic group. I think that we both agree that we would like more TLM services, however the SSPX are wanting this so badly that they are willing to go to invalid services. I think really we all should learn from this. If any priests manage to see this thread and read it, I suggest they send it to any other clergy they know. I think that education is the root of the issue, and I pray that a conclusion will somehow come to this issue. I however follow the Bishop of Rome, and am going to start attending a valid TLM service, that I found in my area. I understand that I am lucky because many people do not have the luxury of attending a valid TLM service. I will pray this will change. However I want to make one more point. For everyone who hates the NO, don’t you think that it has served it’s purpose if it manages to bring more people into the Church, and Salvation? I think that it is better if it can do that. That being said, I am no NO fan, however that’s just my opinion.I was a bit harsh wasn’t it.
L
latinmasslover
Guest
Ouch.
Seeing how you have nothing to say aside from a copycat retort, all I have to say is keep up the example of Vatican II’s love all, accept all mentality; you’re doing great.
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latinmasslover
Guest
Why don’t you inform us of all his names so we’re aware.
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Margarite
Guest
I did not read everyone else’s responses, because I just want to respond to you with my experiences.
My parents were married in the SSPX a year before it was excommunicated. After the excommunication, my father’s father convinced my parents that they must stay with the Church, and not simply bow to their desire to be safe, and comfortable. They realized that he was right, and they started going to the churches that are in union with Rome and the pope. Now we have moved allot, we have lived in 6 states and 9 homes. We have also been to Great Britian, and Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. During all those travels and moves, we have been to many different masses, and we have always tried to find masses that were in union with Rome.
As a child my family lived mostly in KS, where there were plently of PFSP masses to go to, so I hardly ever went to a NO until I was in third grade. Then we moved to Birmingham, AL and we could not find a TLM so we had to go to the NO. At first we were perfect little SSPX people (many people who go to the TLM only gain SSPX ways of thinking). We refused to shake hands, we would whisper the credo in Latin to ourselves, and we were not at all friendly to those fools who liked the NO. Well, my parents soon realized how ugly this attitude was in their children, and they also saw how friendly the NO people were. They saw that most of these people were not evil, just that they were going to mass and doing their best to be good Catholics. So our parents told us to shake hands and smile, “You are wishing these people well, don’t act like you are repulsed by them” they said. So we gave in, then our parents told us that if we were to consider mass to fullfil our Sunday obligation, we must participate, so we started saying the responces with the crowd. We hated, communion in the hand, the kiss of peace, holding hands during the Our Father, horrible songs, etc… but we were lucky, we were broken into the NO with EWTN masses, so we did not have the altar girls or any of the other …stuff…
Well, everywhere we go we try to find the TLM, usually it is unavailable. When we lived near Denver, there was a TLM, but the priest was such a grump (for lack of a better word) and his grumpiness came into the way he said the mass and it just wasn’t beautiful. Instead we found a parish with a pretty good NO. The church building was beautiful, and the 10:00am mass was like EWTN’s masses, it was mostly in English, but the parts that stayed the same each week, like the Credo, Sanctus, etc. were in Latin. The music during this mass was pretty. The other masses were also reverent, and there were only altar boys, but the music was horrible.
continued…
M
Margarite
Guest
Part 2
This is what my parents have taught us through the many different masses that we have been to (I am the eldest of six children):
We only sing songs that have words that are in line with Church doctine.
We don’t hold hands during the Our Father.
My brothers are not altar boys with girls.
We know that the reason we do things differently is we have been taught better, and that those other people are not to be looked down upon because they simply don’t know.
After a mass were a priest preaches heracy, or the singer sings a heretical hymn, my father goes up and confronts them, or he writes a letter. Either way, he informs us of his arguments, and we can learn why they were wrong, according to the Church.
We always recieve Holy Communion on the tongue.
We participate in the mass, and try to ignore “bad” songs.
This training has left us strong. We are unafraid of standing up for our faith in front of anyone despite age. We are sure of ourselves, and we know our faith better than most people. We know what we believe, we know that the Church is having troubles, but we believe with all our hearts that we must stay with the Church and fight for right. We must not abandon the Church in her hour of need, but rather join the ranks of people who are fighting within the Church to help regain what was forgotten.
I am 18 years old, and I am going to a Catholic Liberal Arts college next year. My two sisters who are in high school are going to the best public school in Nevada, because the local Catholic high school is more evil than the public schools. We have met more than one priest who said that the reason he is Catholic is that his parents put him in a public high school rather than a “Catholic” one. My three younger siblings go to the most conservative Catholic school in Vegas. It is still a little liberal, so we are constantly discussing religion and my parents write letters to the teachers whenever they find something that is not consistent with Church teachings. It is a constant stuggle, but my parents say that it is worth it if they can raise us to be good Catholics.
I would suggest that you always explain why. Explain why you don’t hold hands, explain why you recieve on the tongue, explain why you don’t sing that song, explain why girls should not be altar servers, explain why the tabernacle should be in the middle, explain why the priest was wrong, but don’t say he is bad, just say that he was mistaken, and if he refuses to face the truth, say that he needs prayers. Remember that Christ started the Catholic Church and he did not say that leaving it for whatever reason was a good idea.
Here in Vegas, we have found an old priest who is trying to start a TLM, but instead of just throwing people into it, he is starting off with a half Latin, half English mass. Every week he teaches the congregation some new part in Latin. On Easter we are going to start singing the Credo. The priest stays after mass for 15min and teaches a new hymn or reviews an old one with the people who stay and those people help the people who could not stay during the next Sunday mass. There are only 50 people who come and only 15 stay after mass for choir practice, but it has grown considerably since it started a couple months ago.
So have hope for a TLM in union with Rome, and if there isn’t that “culture” maybe see if the priest would consider this plan, it helps people to feel less overwhelmed, and more open to the Latin.
Sorry I was so long winded.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
This is what my parents have taught us through the many different masses that we have been to (I am the eldest of six children):
We only sing songs that have words that are in line with Church doctine.
We don’t hold hands during the Our Father.
My brothers are not altar boys with girls.
We know that the reason we do things differently is we have been taught better, and that those other people are not to be looked down upon because they simply don’t know.
After a mass were a priest preaches heracy, or the singer sings a heretical hymn, my father goes up and confronts them, or he writes a letter. Either way, he informs us of his arguments, and we can learn why they were wrong, according to the Church.
We always recieve Holy Communion on the tongue.
We participate in the mass, and try to ignore “bad” songs.
This training has left us strong. We are unafraid of standing up for our faith in front of anyone despite age. We are sure of ourselves, and we know our faith better than most people. We know what we believe, we know that the Church is having troubles, but we believe with all our hearts that we must stay with the Church and fight for right. We must not abandon the Church in her hour of need, but rather join the ranks of people who are fighting within the Church to help regain what was forgotten.
I am 18 years old, and I am going to a Catholic Liberal Arts college next year. My two sisters who are in high school are going to the best public school in Nevada, because the local Catholic high school is more evil than the public schools. We have met more than one priest who said that the reason he is Catholic is that his parents put him in a public high school rather than a “Catholic” one. My three younger siblings go to the most conservative Catholic school in Vegas. It is still a little liberal, so we are constantly discussing religion and my parents write letters to the teachers whenever they find something that is not consistent with Church teachings. It is a constant stuggle, but my parents say that it is worth it if they can raise us to be good Catholics.
I would suggest that you always explain why. Explain why you don’t hold hands, explain why you recieve on the tongue, explain why you don’t sing that song, explain why girls should not be altar servers, explain why the tabernacle should be in the middle, explain why the priest was wrong, but don’t say he is bad, just say that he was mistaken, and if he refuses to face the truth, say that he needs prayers. Remember that Christ started the Catholic Church and he did not say that leaving it for whatever reason was a good idea.
Here in Vegas, we have found an old priest who is trying to start a TLM, but instead of just throwing people into it, he is starting off with a half Latin, half English mass. Every week he teaches the congregation some new part in Latin. On Easter we are going to start singing the Credo. The priest stays after mass for 15min and teaches a new hymn or reviews an old one with the people who stay and those people help the people who could not stay during the next Sunday mass. There are only 50 people who come and only 15 stay after mass for choir practice, but it has grown considerably since it started a couple months ago.
So have hope for a TLM in union with Rome, and if there isn’t that “culture” maybe see if the priest would consider this plan, it helps people to feel less overwhelmed, and more open to the Latin.
Sorry I was so long winded.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
N
Nick
Guest
Yes, this is when the priest faces the same way as the people.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
OUCH, nice lol.Ouch.
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