Discernment about Marian devotion

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mathematoons

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I have been researching the question of Marian devotion like crazy. Since Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant according to the Church, I suppose the practice (but not some of the excesses I’ve seen) can be defended. After all, Joshua prostrated himself before the Ark…

The stumbling block remains for me personally, however. I have read and heard a lot about the idea that Marian devotion is supposed to lead me to Jesus. No matter how much this idea is explained to me, one inescapable fact remains: it does not lead me to Jesus. Devotion to Mary leads me to Mary. Devotion to any saint leads me to that saint. It is devotion to Jesus that leads me to Jesus. I tried telling this to my priest, but he doesn’t believe me.

It may be that I’m too stupid to get it, but here’s the thing: the Bible does lead me to Jesus. Reading it, meditating on it, studying it, and thinking about things through the Biblical lens leads me to Him. I see Him in the holy men and women of the Bible, I see Him revealed in the Father described in the Old Testament, I see Him in the teachings of the prophets and the letters of Paul, I see Him in Jewish customs commanded in the Pentateuch. (In fact, it was searching the Scriptures like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) that finally convinced me that Marian devotion is defendable.)

But Mary? She is the greatest of the holy people in the Bible and of course should be greatly honored by us. But devotion to her does not lead me to Jesus. “To Jesus though Mary” is a concept that simply will not register, and has completely failed when I tried to put it into practice. Since so many saints lived “to Jesus though Mary,” it follows that imitating saints isn’t working, either.

Let me make one thing clear: I have never been a Protestant. I am not a closet Protestant. I am not even thinking of converting to Protestantism; I have overcome that temptation. I was a hardcore atheist until I got to the point where I could appreciate the miracle that is the Catholic Church in 2010, and then I converted.

In one of the recent Marian threads, I came across the following post:
I have stopped this practice [of praying to Mary and the other saints] since 2009. I won’t explain why since private revelation and witness is not allowed on this site. Needless to say, my relationship with God my Father has flourished as I have remembered who my “first love” is (Rev 2:4). My relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit also skyrocketed as soon as I removed all distractions from my prayer and worship life.
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Yes, that’s right my worship, adoration, devotion, praise and glory go ONLY to God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Does that mean I don’t like Mary, the saints and angels or don’t understand their place in God’s plan, of course not. I know who they are and what role God the Father gave them, however they are NOT God and should not be treated, even remotely or to give the impression, as such. I talk to Mary, the angels and saints if I think it’s necessary, just like I would talk to my living family and friends, but I do not pray to and will certainly not bend my knee to them as I wouldn’t do that with anyone that I know.
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I am still a practicing Catholic because my God wants me there and I want to receive the Eucharist while it’s still available… I simply cannot stomach hearing priests say over and over again that Mary is our salvation, that she should be adored, praised, glorified and that without Mary we are lost… I read and meditate on the Word of God (scripture) and yes, it’s a Catholic bible [sic]. I keep in constant communication with Him and try to listen more than talk… If I recite learned prayers they are only those that are to God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
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This has not been an easy journey and I did not make this decision lightly. I suffered greatly because I felt like I was betraying Mary… we are NOT obligated by the church [sic] to praise, venerate, adore, have a devotion, etc. to Mary or any saints/angels. We are, however, obligated to give ourselves entirely to God our creator, worship Him, praise Him, adore Him, love Him and only Him.
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I find myself drawn to this view. Does anyone else feel this way, or does this make me some kind of renegade?
 
mathematoons said:
I have been researching the question of Marian devotion like crazy. Since Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant according to the Church, I suppose the practice (but not some of the excesses I’ve seen) can be defended. After all, Joshua prostrated himself before the Ark…

The stumbling block remains for me personally, however. I have read and heard a lot about the idea that Marian devotion is supposed to lead me to Jesus. No matter how much this idea is explained to me, one inescapable fact remains: it does not lead me to Jesus. Devotion to Mary leads me to Mary. Devotion to any saint leads me to that saint. It is devotion to Jesus that leads me to Jesus. I tried telling this to my priest, but he doesn’t believe me.

It may be that I’m too stupid to get it, but here’s the thing: the Bible does lead me to Jesus. Reading it, meditating on it, studying it, and thinking about things through the Biblical lens leads me to Him. I see Him in the holy men and women of the Bible, I see Him revealed in the Father described in the Old Testament, I see Him in the teachings of the prophets and the letters of Paul, I see Him in Jewish customs commanded in the Pentateuch. (In fact, it was searching the Scriptures like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) that finally convinced me that Marian devotion is defendable.)

But Mary? She is the greatest of the holy people in the Bible and of course should be greatly honored by us. But devotion to her does not lead me to Jesus. “To Jesus though Mary” is a concept that simply will not register, and has completely failed when I tried to put it into practice. Since so many saints lived “to Jesus though Mary,” it follows that imitating saints isn’t working, either.

Let me make one thing clear: I have never been a Protestant. I am not a closet Protestant. I am not even thinking of converting to Protestantism; I have overcome that temptation. I was a hardcore atheist until I got to the point where I could appreciate the miracle that is the Catholic Church in 2010, and then I converted.

In one of the recent Marian threads, I came across the following post:

I find myself drawn to this view. Does anyone else feel this way, or does this make me some kind of renegade?
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It does not make you a renegade in my book…Out of the norm…but not renegade…but then I’m a bit out of the norm too…

Peace
James
 
Marian devotion is most commonly seen in the rosary. How can you meditate on the incarnation, on John leaping in the womb, His birth, His dedication, His teaching in the Temple, His Baptism, His miracle at Cana, His coming kingdom, His transfiguration, His Eucharist, His agony, His scourging, His thorns, His cross, His crucifixion WITHOUT being drawn to Him?

I don’t mean to sound rude, but I think your problem is user error.
 
I also believe that as Catholics (I’m also speaking to you as someone who is Latino) we have this thing in blood that we love our Mother’s to death. We love God, we also love his mother b/c like you said she is the greates saint of them all. IDK if you have read what she told St. Juan Diego when she appeared to him, “Don’t worry my little child”. She is our mother, I think a problem for people is that they feel were putting her in the same level as God, but is quite contrary. We love her immensely b/c she is the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. We also ask her to intercede for us, just as she did at the Feast of Cana, we know God will not deny his mother.
It is a hard thing to explain, and also to grasp.
 
capablanca911 said:
Marian devotion is most commonly seen in the rosary. How can you meditate on the incarnation, on John leaping in the womb, His birth, His dedication, His teaching in the Temple, His Baptism, His miracle at Cana, His coming kingdom, His transfiguration, His Eucharist, His agony, His scourging, His thorns, His cross, His crucifixion WITHOUT being drawn to Him?

I don’t mean to sound rude, but I think your problem is user error.
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chero23 said:
I also believe that as Catholics (I’m also speaking to you as someone who is Latino) we have this thing in blood that we love our Mother’s to death. We love God, we also love his mother b/c like you said she is the greates saint of them all. IDK if you have read what she told St. Juan Diego when she appeared to him, “Don’t worry my little child”. She is our mother, I think a problem for people is that they feel were putting her in the same level as God, but is quite contrary. We love her immensely b/c she is the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. We also ask her to intercede for us, just as she did at the Feast of Cana, we know God will not deny his mother.
It is a hard thing to explain, and also to grasp.
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👍👍

I think though that we must remember that Our Mother’s Single ambition is to lead us to her Son. As such - If we say to our Mother…I wish to lay all before Jesus directly…our Loving Mother will say - “You go right ahead - This is what I wish you to do”…

Peace
James
 
Seeing how Mary was venerated in ancient times by the Fathers of the Church might help. It has definitely helped me.

amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1356983682&sr=8-2&keywords=mary+and+the+fathers

amazon.com/Earthen-Vessels-According-Patristic-Tradition/dp/0898708370/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356984219&sr=1-1&keywords=gabriel+bunge+prayer

Devotions like the Rosary, etc, are not required, though they are certainly heartily endorsed. However, we have to remember that God meets us where we are rather than where we are not. When one understands that the Rosary is not about Mary at all, but rather a meditation on the Gospel of Christ, it helps a great deal. But in the meantime, one should not do something which can be harmful to their faith.

Some may try to beat you into submission with various quotes from saints which make it appear as if Marian devotion is a requirement of Catholics or that one cannot approach Christ but through her. This is not true. The Church does not mandate or require any specific private devotions. The hierarchy of prayer in the Church is as follows: 1) The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; 2) the Liturgy of the Hours; and 3) public and/or private devotions.

In the short term, if devotion to Mary is not leading you to Christ or is causing you consternation, then back off for a while. Continue to study, discern, and pray about it. Then, down the road, start doing small amounts here and there. As you are comfortable, consider adding more, but there is no rush. Take your time, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance on how best to approach Our Lady and what level of devotion he wants you to have. Things will become more clear to you.

Peace of Christ,
 
“**Love of Mary is but another form and a divinely appointed one, of love of Jesus **and, therefore if love of Him just grow, so also must love of Her. If a person were to say ‘You must not mingle prayer to Mary with prayer to Jesus,’ he would show that he had no true idea of this devotion, and that he was already on the brink of a very dangerous error. Yet people sometimes thoughtlessly speak as if devotion to the Mother was a little trifle allowable cut off devotion to the Son, that it was something surrendered by Jesus to Mary; that Jesus was one thing, and Mary another, and that devotion to the two was to be divided between them proportionably to their respective dignities, say a pound to Him and ounce to her. if such persons really saw what they mean, which they do not, they would perceive that they were talking impiety. Love of Mary is an intrinsic part of love of Jesus and to imagine that the interests of the two can be opposed is to show that we do no understand Jesus or the devotion due to Him.”
(Father Faber All for Jesus)

Yet another thread to try to justify no devotion to Mary. I would use caution in out right rejecting the Mother of God! From what the Saints teach rejecting Mary outright in turn is rejecting God Himself!
 
De_Montfort said:
Yet another thread to try to justify no devotion to Mary. I would use caution in out right rejecting the Mother of God! From what the Saints teach rejecting Mary outright in turn is rejecting God Himself!
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Please provide the posts and quotes wherein anyone on this thread has advocated the rejection of our Lady.
Please be specific…

Peace
James
 
It is comments like this that make people want to “dig in their heels”! :mad:

I understand where the OP is coming from. For some people, Marian devotion is just not part of our spirituality. It does not mean that I don’t love Mary, or I don’t think she is important, it’s that I don’t have any need, right now, in my spirituality of a special devotion to the Blessed Mother.

I pray an occaisional rosary, and say the Hail Mary quite often (every time I wash my hands, in fact, but’s a whole different story;)) but that’s about it.

I used to feel very guilty because of what some other Catholics would say to me about my “lack of devotion to Mary”. I have actually been asked how I could be a Catholic and not pray the Rosary everyday?! :eek:
And then I received the most wonderful advice from a wonderful priest-
*PRAY AS YOU CAN, NOT AS YOU CAN’T
WHAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU PRAY!! * 😃

I pass this advice on to you mathematoons!
Peace be with you on your journey! 🙂
De_Montfort said:
Yet another thread to try to justify no devotion to Mary. I would use caution in out right rejecting the Mother of God! From what the Saints teach rejecting Mary outright in turn is rejecting God Himself!
Click to expand...
 
JRKH said:
Please provide the posts and quotes wherein anyone on this thread has advocated the rejection of our Lady.
Please be specific…

Peace
James
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OP stated to me in another thread that I “worshipped” Mary and to just “admit it”

There were numerous threads trying to denounce devotion to Mary. Trying to seperate Christ from Mary which can’t be done.

I consider Mary necessary not an option the mystery of the Incarnation justifies my belief.

Forgive my zeal, I take offense at Mary being attacked as if she is a rival of Christ.

Maybe I should of worded it a little better, again forgive my zeal.

God Bless You
 
chero23 said:
I also believe that as Catholics (I’m also speaking to you as someone who is Latino) we have this thing in blood that we love our Mother’s to death. We love God, we also love his mother b/c like you said she is the greates saint of them all. IDK if you have read what she told St. Juan Diego when she appeared to him, “Don’t worry my little child”. She is our mother, I think a problem for people is that they feel were putting her in the same level as God, but is quite contrary. We love her immensely b/c she is the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. We also ask her to intercede for us, just as she did at the Feast of Cana, we know God will not deny his mother.
It is a hard thing to explain, and also to grasp.
Click to expand...
I believe that you put it very well! Nailed it, you might say! 👍
 
JRKH said:
👍👍

I think though that we must remember that Our Mother’s Single ambition is to lead us to her Son. As such - If we say to our Mother…I wish to lay all before Jesus directly…our Loving Mother will say - “You go right ahead - This is what I wish you to do”…

Peace
James
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I really doubt it - for her will is in accord with her Son’s, and what loving son would want anything to do with someone who is so disrespectful to the mother who bore and raised him and who is such an important part of his life?

Through whom He chose to come into the world, although he could easily have chosen to have no human parent at all, to simply appear as a babe or full-grown man on the steps of the Temple one day or something? He did not make that choice for no reason, and I think it is something of an insult to reject His chosen vessel and gateway as if what was good enough for Him is not for us.

To love anyone is to love who and what they love and cherish who and what they cherish. Jesus loves and cherishes Mary far more deeply than we can possibly understand. It behooves us who claim to love Him to have a close relationship with her too.

I can only pray that He will teach you to love her as He does.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
It is comments like this that make people want to “dig in their heels”! :mad:

I understand where the OP is coming from. For some people, Marian devotion is just not part of our spirituality. It does not mean that I don’t love Mary, or I don’t think she is important, it’s that I don’t have any need, right now, in my spirituality of a special devotion to the Blessed Mother.

I pray an occaisional rosary, and say the Hail Mary quite often (every time I wash my hands, in fact, but’s a whole different story;)) but that’s about it.

I used to feel very guilty because of what some other Catholics would say to me about my “lack of devotion to Mary”. I have actually been asked how I could be a Catholic and not pray the Rosary everyday?! :eek:
And then I received the most wonderful advice from a wonderful priest-
*PRAY AS YOU CAN, NOT AS YOU CAN’T
WHAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU PRAY!! * 😃

I pass this advice on to you mathematoons!
Peace be with you on your journey! 🙂
Click to expand...
Frequent praying of the Hail Mary hardly constitutes a lack of devotion to her! Anyone who says you are lacking anything in that regard is ridiculous.

The OP goes well beyond - I suspect he or she would be happier if none of us ever prayed a Hail Mary in our lives and banished all images of her from our homes and churches.
 
jwinch2 said:
Seeing how Mary was venerated in ancient times by the Fathers of the Church might help. It has definitely helped me.

amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1356983682&sr=8-2&keywords=mary+and+the+fathers

amazon.com/Earthen-Vessels-According-Patristic-Tradition/dp/0898708370/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356984219&sr=1-1&keywords=gabriel+bunge+prayer

Devotions like the Rosary, etc, are not required, though they are certainly heartily endorsed. However, we have to remember that God meets us where we are rather than where we are not. When one understands that the Rosary is not about Mary at all, but rather a meditation on the Gospel of Christ, it helps a great deal. But in the meantime, one should not do something which can be harmful to their faith.

Some may try to beat you into submission with various quotes from saints which make it appear as if Marian devotion is a requirement of Catholics or that one cannot approach Christ but through her. This is not true. The Church does not mandate or require any specific private devotions. The hierarchy of prayer in the Church is as follows: 1) The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; 2) the Liturgy of the Hours; and 3) public and/or private devotions.

In the short term, if devotion to Mary is not leading you to Christ or is causing you consternation, then back off for a while. Continue to study, discern, and pray about it. Then, down the road, start doing small amounts here and there. As you are comfortable, consider adding more, but there is no rush. Take your time, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance on how best to approach Our Lady and what level of devotion he wants you to have. Things will become more clear to you.

Peace of Christ,
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This is the best response I’ve read so far. When you do choose to begin praying the rosary, you may want to try a scriptural rosary. A scriptural passage is read before each Hail Mary. I seldom pray the rosary without at least reading a passage before each decade.
As a catechist, I learned to add a single word/phrase after the name of Jesus in the Hail Mary that not only helps with meditating on the mystery, but keep the focus on Christ.

God accepts our prayers directly. Scripture says that the Spirit Himself prays for us.
I do like the description that St. Louis De Montfort uses when it comes to Mary’s intercession. This is a paraphrase. While our prayer is like a dandelion that is welcome and accepted, Mary, our mother, takes that dandelion, puts it in a vase and brings it to her Son.
A Marian priest I knew, simply said, “when you honor a man’s mother, you honor the man.”
 
DebChris said:
When you do choose to begin praying the rosary, you may want to try a scriptural rosary. A scriptural passage is read before each Hail Mary. I seldom pray the rosary without at least reading a passage before each decade.
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I couldn’t agree more! Scriptural rosary is outstanding! I can concentrate so much better! I use this little book; Pray the Rosary With Scriptural Readings Saint Joseph edition. It has beautiful images of each mystery as well.
 
But see, that’s just it, I don’t pray the Hail Mary because it’s to Mary,
I pray it because it takes me about the same time as it does to sing “Happy Birthday”.😛

I work in health care food service. Proper hand washing is something that is something that is always highlighted and one of the little “tricks” I’ve learned along the way is to “time” your handwashing by singing Happy Birthday. Well, I hate that song, always have, and figured, it took me about the same time to say a Hail Mary, so now that’s what I do, and offer the prayer for whatever intention pops into my head. I don’t know if I would call it a devotion, though.🤷

And FWIW, I don’t think that mathematoons is “anti-Mary”. I have seen some very over the top devotional practices, and while I know they are not the “norm”, it seems, at least in my experience, that the “birds of a feather” thing is more common in Marian devotion circles, so it may appear that there is a disproportionate number of “over the top” devotions.

I really think we need to cut the OP some slack. By coming here, and asking the questions, and in trying to understand something that they see as obviously important, but just don’t quite “get”, mathematoons is showing great courage.
And what is being shown by some of the attitudes here is not going to help at all.

Do you really think Our Lady would want us to beat someone over the head so that they agreed with us? 🤷
LilyM said:
Frequent praying of the Hail Mary hardly constitutes a lack of devotion to her! Anyone who says you are lacking anything in that regard is ridiculous.

The OP goes well beyond - I suspect he or she would be happier if none of us ever prayed a Hail Mary in our lives and banished all images of her from our homes and churches.
Click to expand...
 
Oneofthewomen said:
But see, that’s just it, I don’t pray the Hail Mary because it’s to Mary,
I pray it because it takes me about the same time as it does to sing “Happy Birthday”.😛

I work in health care food service. Proper hand washing is something that is something that is always highlighted and one of the little “tricks” I’ve learned along the way is to “time” your handwashing by singing Happy Birthday. Well, I hate that song, always have, and figured, it took me about the same time to say a Hail Mary, so now that’s what I do, and offer the prayer for whatever intention pops into my head. I don’t know if I would call it a devotion, though.🤷

And FWIW, I don’t think that mathematoons is “anti-Mary”. I have seen some very over the top devotional practices, and while I know they are not the “norm”, it seems, at least in my experience, that the “birds of a feather” thing is more common in Marian devotion circles, so it may appear that there is a disproportionate number of “over the top” devotions.

I really think we need to cut the OP some slack. By coming here, and asking the questions, and in trying to understand something that they see as obviously important, but just don’t quite “get”, mathematoons is showing great courage.
And what is being shown by some of the attitudes here is not going to help at all.

Do you really think Our Lady would want us to beat someone over the head so that they agreed with us? 🤷
Click to expand...
Point is you choose to say the Hail Mary when you could say another prayer or sing Happy Birthday, and consciously mean it as a prayer offered through her for your various intentions.

I repeat, nothing lacking in the spirit of what you are doing, even if the circumstances are somewhat unusual 🙂

Now ‘devotion’ can be used in a couple of senses. In a formal sense any prayer said to Mary is a Marian devotion. In a less formal sense, there is an attitude and a relationship implicit in your choice to say the Hail Mary, and indeed in the words of the prayer itself. Unless you do not mean them, then it is safe to say that you do indeed has a devotion to her.
 
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