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maltmom
Guest
Thank you James. I pray God uses my experiences to bring others closer to Him.
Discernment about Marian devotion
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mlz
Guest
First of all, I rejoice at your conversion to Catholic Christianity!
2010 is fairly recent- Welcome dear brother in Christ! I have been a Christian for years but only came into the Catholic Church last year after years of study/research/prayer/discussion and obviously the guiding of the Holy Spirit. To grasp everything in the Catholic Church when you are so new to the Christian faith is really totally understandable. Having had a Christian background I am amazed how deep and broad and wonderful the Catholic Church is! Your situation isn’t that you don’t have respect for the Blessed Mother, you are just falling in love with Your Lord and His Word which is great! Having been Protestant it has taken awhile for me to understand the Blessed Mother but I’m really in awe how much there is scriptural connections there are revealing her. She is very important especially in the days we live but it’s ok right now for you to be where you are at, in fact not a surprise at all your reaction. There is no rivalry, not does she want it or ever would. I have come to appreciate her more than I ever thought I would, but it took time. Don’t worry, you’re on a journey. My love and prayers!
In Christ,
mlz
2010 is fairly recent- Welcome dear brother in Christ! I have been a Christian for years but only came into the Catholic Church last year after years of study/research/prayer/discussion and obviously the guiding of the Holy Spirit. To grasp everything in the Catholic Church when you are so new to the Christian faith is really totally understandable. Having had a Christian background I am amazed how deep and broad and wonderful the Catholic Church is! Your situation isn’t that you don’t have respect for the Blessed Mother, you are just falling in love with Your Lord and His Word which is great! Having been Protestant it has taken awhile for me to understand the Blessed Mother but I’m really in awe how much there is scriptural connections there are revealing her. She is very important especially in the days we live but it’s ok right now for you to be where you are at, in fact not a surprise at all your reaction. There is no rivalry, not does she want it or ever would. I have come to appreciate her more than I ever thought I would, but it took time. Don’t worry, you’re on a journey. My love and prayers!In Christ,
mlz
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DebChris
Guest
Please read the entire post. Don’t stop with the first sentence. You asked in your OP for help with discernment. The life of the saint is a reflection of the decision he/she made. There is no criticism.I’m so glad everyone on here knows more about what goes on for me than I do.
Seriously, I’m sick of no one believing me when I bring this up. I don’t take kindly to being called a liar. Every time I discuss this, it ends up with someone telling me exactly what you’re saying.
How would you like it if I said to you, “the ‘we don’t worship Mary, we venerate her’ thing doesn’t work for me?” It’s that offensive.
But somehow, it’s ok to offend those of us whose spiritual life is a little different from the norm.
Some saints have been graced with charisms, special gifts such as healing, through which they show their faith and display God’s power. Others, like Theresa of Calcutta demonstrate God’s love through their care of the poor. Many people have gained inspiration reading the lives of the Saints. The Saints, like the rest of us, had their weaknesses that they overcame by God’s grace. As such, they serve as examples.
I actually thought that coming from a different direction would be helpful in your understanding of why we give such honor to our Blessed Mother. I had a non-Catholic friend describe the communion of Saints as watching us “run the race” and cheering us on.
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De_Montfort
Guest
I am sorry to the OP for not understanding his orginal post, but that being said what you are saying to me about my “zeal” which I do have, is actually just me posting teachings of St. Louis de Montfort! That’s all I’ve pretty much done here on CAF and all I get in return is “pushed” or “zeal” Now I have done my research, St. Louis de Montfort has been promoted by past Popes, indulgences have been given to those who do St. Louis de Montforts consecration. Blessed John Paul II stated
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_19970621_montfort_en.html
Like I have said the history of the Church shows it has been promoted. On this website I feel the vibe of caution and I understand that, what you are saying about some are not ready to eat that fruit yet. Does that mean we should be silent? Is there anything wrong with me promoting St. Louis de Montforts teaching? Is not leading others to Mary leading them to Christ, a sure path.
Indeed Her Son is our only Goal, the final end of all men. I understand not all are on the same level, only the Holy Spirit can guide us. Mary is a gift to us from Jesus and devotion to Her is inspired by him, if thats the way he leads the soul. St. Louis de Montfort wrote if any of the faithful have Jesus in their heart it is thanks to Mary and without her they would not have him! He also said if we were to shed all our blood and travel the roughest roads to obtain Jesus it would be as nothing if not supported by the Blessed Virgin. So do we keep such things in a box in fear of offending someone? To me this is wisdom from a Holy Man a Saint, St. Louis lived amoung the poor, one sermon he gave was him looking at Christ crucified on the Cross and was moved to tears, it converted people.
Now on this website St. Louis de Montfort is obviously not understood. He wasn’t understood in his time either. Yet he was obedient to the end and only wished to spread the love of Jesus and Mary.
But with all charity, I do not see the need to live in a closet in fear of my devotion offending someone because I follow St. Louis de Montfort. I think some don’t understand it has to be practiced with faith. We are not supposed to want to see extraordinary things in prayer or of any kind, we have to live by faith, and history of the Church shows Mary keeps nothing for herself but gives it directly to God. It takes trust and faith.
Now am I understanding you right when you say my “zeal” is too much for other people because I post teaching of a Holy man, a Saint of the Catholic Church? Or that my path is wrong and I should go hide in a corner?
James don’t take this post as “anger” I am saying this in charity and trying to understand your point to me!
OP God bless you on your journey, I am here to say St. Louis de Montforts teachings are sound, if your not ready that is fine to, everything starts and ends with Jesus Christ. Eventually he will share his feelings of love and gratitude towards his Mother, and the more we go through her in things the more intense is our union with Christ!
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DebChris
Guest
Heroes always point to something or someone greater than themselves. Saints always point to Christ… As John the Baptist said, “I must decrease that He might increase.”
Yes, we see their heroic actions, but those actions are always for a greater good.
I hope this helps.
What is the difference between a sinner and a saint? A saint is a sinner who didn’t give up. None of us gets into heaven of our accord, but only through the power of the One who saves. “I am the vine. You are the branches. Apart from me. You can do nothing.”
Yes, we see their heroic actions, but those actions are always for a greater good.
I hope this helps.
What is the difference between a sinner and a saint? A saint is a sinner who didn’t give up. None of us gets into heaven of our accord, but only through the power of the One who saves. “I am the vine. You are the branches. Apart from me. You can do nothing.”
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JRKH
Guest
I find no anger in your post…I hope you find none in mine.
All I can say to you is this. Several people have expressed to you that your approach is off putting. If this fact is not sufficient for you to prayerfully re-examine your approach, that is, when where and how to post and a more careful reading of what people actually write then there is really nothing more I can offer.
I find it sad that you see attacks where none exist and it is only later…after being called on it…that you apologize.
After having people tell you that your approach is counterproductive - your reaction is that, somehow, you are being told to hide in a closet.
And the truly sad thing is that this is not the first thread where you and I have had this discussion. Yet your approach - and your incredulity at the response - remains the same.
I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but frankly - I find it rather childish. This idea that because someone disagrees with you or calls you on some problem that you want to pout…which is exactly what you are doing when you ask if you should go sit in a closet.
I have suggested - and I continue to suggest - that you prayerfully take this matter to our Heavenly Mother. Ask her if she thinks that your postings here are helping or hurting HER cause.
Peace
James
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jwinch2
Guest
Many spiritual paths have been approved and promoted by the Church, not just those you happen to think are best.
Read the Early Church Fathers, particularly the spiritual masters, on prayer and you will see something very different than the approach that you continually advocate others to follow. Does that make them wrong? Did the Desert Fathers not know how to pray or to approach Christ? Was St. Basil somehow lacking in his approach to God; or St. John Cassian; or St. Augustine; or St. Gregory of Nyssa; or Pope St. Gregory the Great; or St. Benedict? Is their path not one that people today can still follow to achieve holiness and union with God? Were their prayers lives lacking because they did not follow the same teachings you do?
I’m glad that you have found a path that you believe works for you. All of us are. What would be nice however, is for you to recognize not everyone is called to walk that same path.
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DebChris
Guest
I don’t know whether or not we have strayed from the original intent of this thread. However, I think these two posts combined bring related themes that need to be addressed.
One of the beauties of our Faith is its both it richness and its simplicity. While the basic tenets can all be found in the the Nicene Creed, it can take a lifetime to plumb the depths, and we will never understand everything. It is a mystery to be embraced, not solved. Our devotional life is as individual as we are, and it will change throughout our life as our understanding and circumstances change. The rosary, as an example, developed out of the peasantry, who did not have the time to join in the Liturgy of the Hours with those who lived in the monasteries during the Middle Ages. We forget that for much of history, only the privileged were literate. It is only recently that I learned that the Angelus originated during the time of the Crusades as a prayer of peace and tranquility in France.
Many of the “traditional” prayers that individuals pray come from private revelations. Many do have promises attached to them. One of the warnings I remember from a Jesus Day Conference I attended many years ago is that “it is possible to become so full of the Spirit that a person can lose sight of the Spirit.” The writings of DeMontfort can be overwhelming to a person who is not ready to read them. Terms like “slave” can be off-putting. There are other spiritual writers who can lead individuals to a right devotion of our Mother.
Sometimes the slow, but steady approach to developing a devotional life is the best. That devotional life includes prayer, piety (or study), and action.
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jwinch2
Guest
The prayer life of the Early Church Fathers was not based off of private revelation with promises of indulgences. Having said that, I love and venerate many of the medieval spiritual masters (St’s. Dominic and Francis, St. Bernard, the Hermits of Mt. Carmel, etc. are all wonderful, and their teachings can absolutely lead one to Christ).
However, it is important to remember that Catholic prayer did not begin after the year 1000 AD. The Rosary, for example, is a wonderful devotion, and one that I use myself, but there are prayer traditions within the Church which had been in practice for a thousand years by the time that this "traditional’ form of prayer was first practiced. Many of those ancient prayer traditions are far more centered on Christ rather than devotion to saints, even the Blessed Mother. In fact, coming out of the prayer tradition of the Desert Fathers as passed on through persons such as Evagrius Ponticus, Origen, and St. John Cassian, we can see that saintly devotion is considered to be part of the earliest stage of contemplation with the more advanced stages being focused purely on Christ. If one chooses to follow such a path or has a level of Marian devotion which more closely resembles the practice of the early Church, they are not wrong for doing so, despite the suggestions on this thread, and on several others, that they are.
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De_Montfort
Guest
I agree with you that their are other paths to Christ. All the men you mention were holy and their example is worthy of being followed.
I know you would never say these great men would ever be de canonized like I have be told would happen to the Saint I follow. My goal is not to offend anyone, I only wish to stand up for Mary and St. Louis de Montfort.
My question to everyone is, is it the Spirit of Jesus to wish to be without the help of Mary?
I am sure the great men you mention had some sort of Marian devotion, and it makes me happy that you say you do too. I understand not all are on the same level, I just wish my path wasn’t attacked so much.
Fr. Nicholas Norman said about St. Louis de Montfort’s teachings that “One may imagine the fury of the Evil One as this book was being written. He does his utmost to cloud men’s minds to it’s glories and truths, as he clouded the minds of the Scribes and Pharisees. The Saint prophesied this attack and foretold that his work would be lost awhile, as indeed it was, being rediscovered only in 1842.”
I wish only others to realize my path is indeed sound.
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JRKH
Guest
Any time you see Mary or St DeMontfort attacked - you let me know and I will help you defend them.
I don’t understand this question?
What you see as attacks - many of us see as defense. In your very first post on this this thread you made the (unfounded) accusation that Mary was being attacked. I can’t speak for other threads as I have no inclination to go back and review them…
I would love it if you could show me just the posts wherein people have said that your path is not sound (that being the path advocated by DeMontfort).
Peace
James
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coco2
Guest
I think some people here are being a little rough on the OP. I have a question, that I guess I should know the answer to, but don’t. When did the actual prayer ( Hail Mary) start to be said by the faithful. I know part of it is scriptural, but when did it start to be recited? When is the earliest in recorded church history does it mention this prayer. Maybe if the OP knows the history behind this prayer, it will be easier to accept.
OP, I think you are ok with just praying directly to God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I am assuming that you have been exposed to groups that are very focused on Marian apparitions, as these usually are the people who urge others to pray the rosary daily. Sometimes they are so desperate to have people follow the same devotion that have helped them in their own life, that their “urging” is more like pushing, insisting, and make those who do not follow the same devotion feel guilty.
On the day of judgement, for what will we be judged? Will we be judged if we prayed the Rosary? Will we be judged on how much we loved God and our neighbor? Some people absolutely have been brought to Christ through Mary, and show their love to Him by praying the Rosary, but certainly, it isn’t the only way to show God your love for Him. My suggestion is to not fret about it. ( Believe me, I have worried about the same thing many times!) Ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you. There are so many, many, many different devotions and any and all of them are good if they bring you closer to Jesus. If one doesn’t help you, use another or perhaps, your own prayers that come straight from your heart. Everyone’s journey is different, and God knows your heart.
OP, I think you are ok with just praying directly to God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I am assuming that you have been exposed to groups that are very focused on Marian apparitions, as these usually are the people who urge others to pray the rosary daily. Sometimes they are so desperate to have people follow the same devotion that have helped them in their own life, that their “urging” is more like pushing, insisting, and make those who do not follow the same devotion feel guilty.
On the day of judgement, for what will we be judged? Will we be judged if we prayed the Rosary? Will we be judged on how much we loved God and our neighbor? Some people absolutely have been brought to Christ through Mary, and show their love to Him by praying the Rosary, but certainly, it isn’t the only way to show God your love for Him. My suggestion is to not fret about it. ( Believe me, I have worried about the same thing many times!) Ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you. There are so many, many, many different devotions and any and all of them are good if they bring you closer to Jesus. If one doesn’t help you, use another or perhaps, your own prayers that come straight from your heart. Everyone’s journey is different, and God knows your heart.
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coco2
Guest
The OP didn’t say this at all!
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De_Montfort
Guest
Thank you, I hope you will.
Is it the spirit of Jesus do we actually possess his spirit if we wish to do without the help of Our Blessed Lady?
I am sorry for jumping the gun on this thread. OP in another thread stated that St. Louis de Montfort worshipped Mary and that I do also (which both accounts are false). It was also stated that one day St. Louis de Montfort would be de-canonized. Now OP asked me to forgive him his zeal and I do. I am only mentioning these things to show why my zeal got the best of me.
I answered this question above. I don’t want to go back and quote everyone, that is not necessary since I am being honsest.
God Bless You
J
JRKH
Guest
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God which is Agape - Love (1 John 4:7-8) That Spirit of Love seeks only that which is best for us and we, in possessing that Love through grace seek only that which brings us closer to God.
Any who possess this Spirit, embrace that which aids in that goal and that would include the help of our Lady in whatever ways that seem good to them and to Our Lord and Lady at any given point in the individual’s journey.
For this reason, our Lady is more than happy to remain hidden - while still offering support and aid - if in so doing she is able to bring a person closer to her Son.
This is how Agape - True Agape - The Spirit of Christ - works.
Each member of the Heavenly host welcomes and embraces our efforts and grants graces, insights, and aid in whatever way they can - and whatever way we are best able to use.
So no - The Spirit of Christ cannot reject Mary and if one has the Spirit of Christ, then s/he will not reject her aid.
Peace
James
mathematoons
New member
Yes, I have been exposed to a lot of people like that, here on CA, in my reading, and in real life.
I don’t really pay much attention to private revelations, except those directed at me personally.
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DebChris
Guest
This is an excellent question. I know the history of the development of the rosary. As mentioned in an earlier post, the rosary began in the Middle Ages when peasants wanted to share in the prayers of the monasteries but did not have the same time or literacy. They began by saying 150 Pater Nosters, Our Fathers, the same number of psalms in the Bible that the monks recited daily. To keep count, the peasants used stones which were later strung on a rope. Over time, the Our Fathers, were replaced, and divided into the decades of Hail Marys with which we are familiar.
What I do not know is whether or not the Hail Mary developed during this time period, or was a prayer with which people were already familiar from ancient times.
On other threads, you will find posters who have difficulty accepting the Luminous Mysteries that Pope John Paul II added to the rosary because it deviates from the 150 Psalter count. These are personally my favorite set because they do focus on the ministry of Christ. Some individuals have difficulty separating tradition which can change from Tradition, the unchanging truths which Christ gave His Apostles and that have been handed intact to us.
Prayer, by definition, should be a “lifting up of our hearts and minds to God.” It is developing our relationship with God, of letting God change us into the image of His Son. It is not that I am going to become a St. Francis. I am going to become the me that God wants me to be.
At the judgment, God is not going to ask how many rosaries we prayed, or how many scripture passages we memorized. We are going to be judged on our agape, on how we demonstrated the love of Christ to the world. Did we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or give a drink of water to the thirsty?
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DebChris
Guest
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to me unless the Father draws Him.”
In all our discussion, this is what we need to remember.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.[John 1:1-5]
Scripture goes on to tells us that John came to testify to the light, “so that all might believe through him.” John was not the light.
Nor is Mary the light, though she gave the light to the world by giving birth to the light.
The Saints bear witness to the light by their lives. The word martyr actually means witness.
None of us earns heaven. God sent His only Son that we might be reconciled to Him.
Our prayer is not about changing God, but allowing God to transform us into the person He would have us be. It is more than rote recitation of memorized formulas. It is two way conversation, and the development of a relationship with God.
As I quoted a Marianist friend I knew many years ago in an earlier post, “No man is going to be insulted if you bring flowers to his mother.” Mary can take the dandelions we bring and put them in a vase for us. That doesn’t mean that Christ won’t take the dandelion directly from my hand.
In all our discussion, this is what we need to remember.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.[John 1:1-5]
Scripture goes on to tells us that John came to testify to the light, “so that all might believe through him.” John was not the light.
Nor is Mary the light, though she gave the light to the world by giving birth to the light.
The Saints bear witness to the light by their lives. The word martyr actually means witness.
None of us earns heaven. God sent His only Son that we might be reconciled to Him.
Our prayer is not about changing God, but allowing God to transform us into the person He would have us be. It is more than rote recitation of memorized formulas. It is two way conversation, and the development of a relationship with God.
As I quoted a Marianist friend I knew many years ago in an earlier post, “No man is going to be insulted if you bring flowers to his mother.” Mary can take the dandelions we bring and put them in a vase for us. That doesn’t mean that Christ won’t take the dandelion directly from my hand.
J
JRKH
Guest
There is an article in the Catholic Encyclopedia on the prayer HERE that is quite interesting. It says, in part…
In point of fact there is little or no trace of the Hail Mary as an accepted devotional formula before about 1050. All the evidence suggests that it took its rise from certain versicles and responsories occurring in the Little Office or Cursus of the Blessed Virgin which just at that time was coming into favour among the monastic orders.
It then goes on to explain how the prayer developed with the addition of the intercessory request that follows the biblical phrases. A quite interesting article.
Peace
James
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