Disciples Doubts

[William_C]

You don’t understand covenants or you are not understanding that the regulations in Leviticus, Exodus and Dueteronomy were part of the covenant.

All of the rules in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy were rules that the Israelites had to obey as part of the covenant which they had made with God at Mt. Sinai.

Christ esablished a new covenant.

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

**In speaking of a new covenant **he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)

Christ esablished a new covenant, and for those under the new covenant, the old one with its rules and regulations is obsolete.

If you want to live under the rules and regulations of the old covenant, I know some Orthodox Jewish communities who would love to have you. They are some of the nicest people I know, but they live under the old covenant, with its rules and regulations. I live under a new covenant,

In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Corinthians 11:25)

That’s the covenant I live under - the covenant in Christ’s blood. The rules of Christ’s new covenant are simple and can be summed up on one word - love.

***For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” *** (Galatians 5:14)

-Tim-

Friend, you don’t understand that in the context of the thread (Jn 6), it is the words of an alive-and-not-yet-crucified Jesus, spoken to His Jewish disciples, that are under discussion.

IOW, the New Covenant at the time of John 6 is still future, and the Old Covenant at the time of John 6 is still in effect.

Is it really your position that the Lord Himself is encouraging Jewish believers to break God’s commandment commanded to them in Lev 3:17 which is a forever commandment? Do you not understand that it is sin to break God’s law?

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

 

[William_C]

I’ll bet 10 to 1 that you eat fat. I hope you order your steaks well done.

Is it your position that Leviticus 3:17 doesn’t mean what it says?

If so, in your opinion, what else does Scripture say that it really doesn’t mean? Be specific, please.

 

[pete_29]

Is it your position that Leviticus 3:17 doesn’t mean what it says?

If so, in your opinion, what else does Scripture say that it really doesn’t mean? Be specific, please.

I didn’t say that at all. I’m merely pointing out that you may committing a sin. As a Catholic Christian it is my duty to help any of my brethren who may be stumbling. Is it not?

 

[TimothyH]

Friend, you don’t understand that in the context of the thread (Jn 6), it is the words of an alive-and-not-yet-crucified Jesus, spoken to His Jewish disciples, that are under discussion.

IOW, the New Covenant at the time of John 6 is still future, and the Old Covenant at the time of John 6 is still in effect.

Is it really your position that the Lord Himself is encouraging Jewish believers to break God’s commandment commanded to them in Lev 3:17 which is a forever commandment? Do you not understand that it is sin to break God’s law?

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

Catholics are familiar with John 6.

It was not sin. Christ had already poured out blood upon the ground.

He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground. (Luke 22:44)

Christ was in the midst of establishing a new covenant and in doing so, was making the old one obsolete. The Apostles with him in the upper room were the first to participate in the new covenant, that night, at the last supper.

The passover meal was, for every Jew, their personal participation in the Exodus from slavery in Isreal. The Last Supper that night was the first passover meal of the new exodus which Jesus was to accomplish in Jerusalem the next day.

About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray. While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. (Luke 9:31)

There was a new passover meal, an new exodus, and a new covenant with new laws, all being ushered in by Christ that night and the next day on the cross, confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt when the tomb was found empty.

The old covenant was passing away.

-Tim-

 

[William_C]

Jesus said, This IS My Body and This IS My Blood. I’m sure you don’t think Our Lord is a liar.

In Leviticus 3:17, God told Israel they shall not eat blood forever.

I’m sure you don’t think God is a liar.

 

[William_C]

Catholics are familiar with John 6.

It was not sin. Christ had already poured out blood upon the ground.

He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground. (Luke 22:44)

Christ was in the midst of establishing a new covenant and in doing so, was making the old one obsolete. The Apostles with him in the upper room were the first to participate in the new covenant, that night, at the last supper.

The passover meal was, for every Jew, their personal participation in the Exodus from slavery in Isreal. The Last Supper that night was the first passover meal of the new exodus which Jesus was to accomplish in Jerusalem the next day.

About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray. While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. (Luke 9:31)

There was a new passover meal, an new exodus, and a new covenant with new laws, all being ushered in by Christ that night and the next day on the cross, confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt when the tomb was found empty.

The old covenant was passing away.

-Tim-

Sorry, Tim, at the time of John 6, the New Covenant is still future, and the Old Covenant is still in effect.

You’re avoiding that fact.

I ask again, Is it really your position that the Lord Himself is encouraging Jewish believers to break God’s commandment commanded to them in Lev 3:17 which is a forever commandment? Do you not understand that it is sin to break God’s law?

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

 

[TimothyH]

Is it your position that Leviticus 3:17 doesn’t mean what it says?

If so, in your opinion, what else does Scripture say that it really doesn’t mean? Be specific, please.

The law was everlasting because the law was part of a covenant, and the covenant between God and Israel was everlasting. There is only one way a covenant can end - when one of the participants dies.

The covenant was between God and Israel. Jesus was God and he died on the cross. The covenant was ended because God the son - the Second Person of the Trinity - died on the cross.

***Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred *which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:15)

Those who believe that Jesus is God, and those who believe that he died on the cross, understand that the old covenant has ended, and with it the laws and rules are obsolete.

That’s what the entire book of Hebrews is about - the old and new covenants, and the passing away of the old and the establishemnt of the new.

-Tim-

 

[William_C]

I didn’t say that at all. I’m merely pointing out that you may committing a sin. As a Catholic Christian it is my duty to help any of my brethren who may be stumbling. Is it not?

So you believe that the prohibition against eating blood given in Lev 3:17 is, as it says, a forever prohibition?

 

[TimothyH]

So you believe that the prohibition against eating blood given in Lev 3:17 is, as it says, a forever prohibition?

It’s not forever. It is until the covenant ends. That is what the entire book of Hebrews is about - the establishment of a new covenant.

-Tim-

 

[William_C]

The law was everlasting because the law was part of a covenant, and the covenant between God and Israel was everlasting. There is only one way a covenant can end - when one of the participants dies.

At the time of John 6, the New Covenant is still future, and the Old Covenant is still in effect.

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

 

[William_C]

It’s not forever. It is until the covenant ends. That is what the entire book of Hebrews is about - the establishment of a new covenant.

-Tim-

At the time of John 6, the New Covenant is still future, and the Old Covenant is still in effect.

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

 

[TimothyH]

Sorry, Tim, at the time of John 6, the New Covenant, and the Old Covenant is still in effect.

You’re avoiding that fact.

I ask again, Is it really your position that the Lord Himself is encouraging Jewish believers to break God’s commandment commanded to them in Lev 3:17 which is a forever commandment? Do you not understand that it is sin to break God’s law?

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

Two covenants with two different sets of rules cannot be in effect at the same time between the same people

I don’t think you have a full understanding of how covenants work and what they entail, nor do I think you understand covenant history in the Bible - the various covenants which God made in the bible with Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Israel, David, and Jesus.

The old covenant with one set of rules and the new covenant with another set of rules could not be in effect at the same time. That would mean that God contradicts himself, and that is not possible.

Covenants don’t work that way. Covenants create family bonds. Two covenants in effect at the same time mean two different family bonds between the same people. That’s not possible.

The old covenant specified no blood because “The life of every creature is in the blood”. When we consume animal blood, we assume the life of an animal. We live like a beast. But the old covenant is obsolete, and in the new covenant we consume the perfect blood of Christ so that we can life the perfect life of Christ, because the “Life of every creature is in the blood.”

That’s how the Jews would have understood Jesus’ words in John 6, in the context of the covenant, and in the context of the “life being in the blood.” Those who believed that Jesus was God would have understood it that way.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. (John 6:54)

That’s how the Jews would have understood it, that Jesus was trying to get them to consume his blood, and in so doing was trying to get them to live his life.

-Tim-

 

[William_C]

Two covenants with two different sets of rules cannot be in effect at the same time between the same people…The old covenant with one set of rules and the new covenant with another set of rules could not be in effect at the same time. That would mean that God contradicts himself, and that is not possible.

Exactly. That’s what I’ve been saying all along, and what you’ve been avoiding.

At the time of John 6, Jesus is still alive and uncrucified; therefore, the New Covenant is still future, and the Old Covenant is still in effect.

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

 

[TimothyH]

Exactly. That’s what I’ve been saying all along, and what you’ve been avoiding.

At the time of John 6, Jesus is still alive and uncrucified; therefore, the New Covenant is still future, and the Old Covenant is still in effect.

It is impossible for Jesus in John 6 to be instructing that His flesh and blood be literally eaten, otherwise, He is instructing the Jews to break God’s commandment to them.

God doesn’t tempt people to sin (Jas 1:13,14).

William, I have to go. Here in Georgia it is finally cooling off after a long, hot summer and I like to walk in the cool, in the quiet of the night and pray.

You know that us Catholics have particular ways in which we like to pray, and there is one very special way in which we pray, which I am going to do tonight as I walk. I will pray for you William in this very special way of praying, and for myself too - that God grants us both, if it is His will, mercy for our sins and that if it be his will that we both reach heaven safely, not because we deserve it but because His Son died on the Cross for us.

I wish you the peace of Christ.

-Tim-

 

[pete_29]

So you believe that the prohibition against eating blood given in Lev 3:17 is, as it says, a forever prohibition?

I’m just a dumb old retired prison guard. I’m sure I’m not qualified to debate you, but one thing I do know is that in three of the Gospels, Jesus says This is My Body and This is My Blood. He didn’t say this is a symbol of My Body, or this is a symbol of My Blood. He said, This IS My Body and This IS My Blood. If He says it is, that’s good enough for me. One other point, remember the two disciples who walked the road with Jesus after the Crucifixion. When did they recognize Jesus? It was after he broke the Bread and gave the Blessing. I take this to mean that we come to really know Christ in partaking of His Body and Blood. I’m sure you take these verses in a different context, as the Bible says, it’s a hard teaching to believe, but I can’t see how the verses of His Body and Blood can be taken as anything but what He said.

 

[William_C]

William, I have to go. Here in Georgia it is finally cooling off after a long, hot summer and I like to walk in the cool, in the quiet of the night and pray.

You know that us Catholics have particular ways in which we like to pray, and there is one very special way in which we pray, which I am going to do tonight as I walk. I will pray for you William in this very special way of praying, and for myself too - that God grants us both, if it is His will, mercy for our sins and that if it be his will that we both reach heaven safely, not because we deserve it but because His Son died on the Cross for us.

I wish you the peace of Christ.

-Tim-

G’night, Tim. Enjoy your prayer time.

 

[William_C]

I’m just a dumb old retired prison guard. I’m sure I’m not qualified to debate you, but one thing I do know is that in three of the Gospels, Jesus says This is My Body and This is My Blood. He didn’t say this is a symbol of My Body, or this is a symbol of My Blood. He said, This IS My Body and This IS My Blood. If He says it is, that’s good enough for me. One other point, remember the two disciples who walked the road with Jesus after the Crucifixion. When did they recognize Jesus? It was after he broke the Bread and gave the Blessing. I take this to mean that we come to really know Christ in partaking of His Body and Blood. I’m sure you take these verses in a different context, as the Bible says, it’s a hard teaching to believe, but I can’t see how the verses of His Body and Blood can be taken as anything but what He said.

I understand.

 

[pete_29]

I’m sorry, I’m a very slow typist so I’m a little behind on the points being made, but I would think that the New Covenant began with the Birth of Jesus. That’s my understanding anyway.

 

[pete_29]

I understand.

I’m glad I could make myself clear. I have a hard time transferring my thoughts to words sometimes so if anything I post seem confusing, please take it with a grain of salt.

 

[pete_29]

By the same token, isn’t Mary–Jesus’ mother–confused at one point by what he’s doing at when he’s preaching?
That always struck me as odd and perplexing, since she of all people would be the* key person* in the world who knew what he was about…?

Why? Did your mother always understand you?