Disciples Doubts

[William_C]

There are no works I need to perform to save myself.

“…it is only by faith in Christ that I can perform the works that are necessary for my salvation…” – R_C.

ISTM you’re contradicting yourself.

 

[inkaneer]

Is there any protestant out there who can help their brother, William C here. He needs to know what early church teacher taught sola scriptura. I asked him for evidentiary proof but apparently he is unable to provide it. So some help from his sola scripturist brethren would be appreciated. Also, can any of his protestant brethren help him out on Catholic doctrine? His understanding is woefully inadequate to the point of being downright wrong.
So, some help for a brethren, if you will.

 

[R_C]

ISTM you’re contradicting yourself.

I am afraid that my writing is so poor that I am unable to express what I mean… I also apologize for the long posts, I am sorry and I wish I could be more concise.

I believe that there is a significant difference between the expression “works necessary for my salvation” and the expression “works I need to perform to save myself”.

The second statement implies two important and erroneous things:

• that I can save myself
• that to save myself I need to perform certain works

The first statement underscores a different situation:

• I cannot save myself: salvation comes from God
• through the gift of faith, I can live in grace
• if I live in grace, then Christ will perform wonderful works through his servant, as the wise head employs the members of the body for good ends
• by willingly allowing God’s will to take over my will and becoming an instrument of Christ in the works He wills to use me as His instrument, I will not lose salvation
• if I were to reject God and do my will, I would not be able to perform any of those good things that are the fruits of faith, thus I would reject salvation

I thought of another example. Consider our Lord during His sorrows in the Garden. As He prays to the Father, He says:

Abba, everything is possible for you. Please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine

Let us think in a mystical way of Christ being a body of which we are all members - as it is.

Now the fundamental question, in context, is: were the works of Christ necessary? Was not His perfect faith in God’s omnipotence sufficient for salvation?

Clearly it was not so: there were works to be done in order to attain salvation, works that could be performed only by letting God’s divine will overcome our human will. That is why the Lord taught us to imitate Him by 1. giving up self 2. picking up the cross 3. following Him.

Wait a minute…then to attain salvation we need to perform some works? Yes and no. Here is what I mean: Christ did say:

the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these

By willingly becoming an instrument of God (“O Lord, surely I am Your servant, I am Your servant, the son of Your handmaid”) Jesus performed the works necessary for salvation - or rather, God performed the works through His human nature. For in Jesus we see the perfect example of a human nature in full conformity with God’s will.

Let me be clear in my belief: I believe that Jesus could have freely refused to do those sorrowful works, disobeying God’s will. Salvation would have then be lost, this time forever. Which is why, when Jesus spoke of the works of sorrow that the Father wanted to accomplish through the Son of Man and Peter said “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”, the Lord turned and said:

Get behind me, Adversary! You are an obstacle in my path, because you are thinking not as God thinks but as human beings do.’

In short: it is my understanding that there are no works I need (or can) perform in order for me to become my own savior and save myself, but by faith in God I can live in grace and perform the works necessary for my salvation - for “faith without works is dead”. Yet I know that it is not I who perform them, but Christ who performs them through his little servant, who can truly do nothing by himself.

 

[William_C]

I am afraid that my writing is so poor that I am unable to express what I mean… I also apologize for the long posts, I am sorry and I wish I could be more concise.

I believe that there is a significant difference between the expression “works necessary for my salvation” and the expression “works I need to perform to save myself”.

The second statement implies two important and erroneous things:

• that I can save myself
• that to save myself I need to perform certain works

The first statement underscores a different situation:

• I cannot save myself: salvation comes from God
• through the gift of faith, I can live in grace
• if I live in grace, then Christ will perform wonderful works through his servant, as the wise head employs the members of the body for good ends
• by willingly allowing God’s will to take over my will and becoming an instrument of Christ in the works He wills to use me as His instrument, I will not lose salvation
• if I were to reject God and do my will, I would not be able to perform any of those good things that are the fruits of faith, thus I would reject salvation

I thought of another example. Consider our Lord during His sorrows in the Garden. As He prays to the Father, He says:

Let us think in a mystical way of Christ being a body of which we are all members - as it is.

Now the fundamental question, in context, is: were the works of Christ necessary? Was not His perfect faith in God’s omnipotence sufficient for salvation?

Clearly it was not so: there were works to be done in order to attain salvation, works that could be performed only by letting God’s divine will overcome our human will. That is why the Lord taught us to imitate Him by 1. giving up self 2. picking up the cross 3. following Him.

Wait a minute…then to attain salvation we need to perform some works? Yes and no. Here is what I mean: Christ did say:

By willingly becoming an instrument of God (“O Lord, surely I am Your servant, I am Your servant, the son of Your handmaid”) Jesus performed the works necessary for salvation - or rather, God performed the works through His human nature. For in Jesus we see the perfect example of a human nature in full conformity with God’s will.

Let me be clear in my belief: I believe that Jesus could have freely refused to do those sorrowful works, disobeying God’s will. Salvation would have then be lost, this time forever. Which is why, when Jesus spoke of the works of sorrow that the Father wanted to accomplish through the Son of Man and Peter said “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”, the Lord turned and said:

In short: it is my understanding that there are no works I need (or can) perform in order for me to become my own savior and save myself, but by faith in God I can live in grace and perform the works necessary for my salvation - for “faith without works is dead”. Yet I know that it is not I who perform them, but Christ who performs them through his little servant, who can truly do nothing by himself.

Well, you know, the council of Trent, Sixth Session, says that your works merit increase your justification and merit eternal life.

Trent’s an infallible council, correct?

 

[R_C]

Well, you know, the council of Trent, Sixth Session, says that your works merit increase your justification and merit eternal life.

Trent’s an infallible council, correct?

An Ecumenical Council is not a small thing: all the bishops and the most renowned theologians gather under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring the Church a greater understanding of God’s will. Surely, even if we want to believe that God left the leaders of the largest Christian community on their own, they still deserve the basic respect that the young and inexperienced owe the elder and wise.

What does the quote you mention actually say?

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, that is, mortifying the members of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still; and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
"Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.

…] Hence, to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.

Canone 32. Se qualcuno afferma che le opere buone dell’uomo giustificato sono doni di Dio, cosí da non essere anche meriti di colui che è giustificato, o che questi con le buone opere da lui compiute per la grazia di Dio e i meriti di Gesú Cristo (di cui è membro vivo), non merita realmente un aumento di grazia, la vita eterna e il conseguimento della stessa vita eterna (posto che muoia in grazia) ed anche l’aumento della gloria: sia anatema.

Canon 32 says that the good works of the justified man are gifts of God but they are also merits of the justified man; it also says that the good works that the justified man accomplishes by the grace of God and the merits of Christ actually merit the justified man a further increase in grace.

I find no contradiction in this teaching of the Council. Nowhere is said that man becomes his own savior or attains his own justification. All it says is that performing those works does not make us simply tools with no will in the hands of God, but also merit us additional grace because by our free will we are collaborating with God.

 

[inkaneer]

Is there any protestant out there who can help their brother, William C here. He needs to know what early church teacher taught sola scriptura. I asked him for evidentiary proof but apparently he is unable to provide it. So some help from his sola scripturist brethren would be appreciated. Also, can any of his protestant brethren help him out on Catholic doctrine? His understanding is woefully inadequate to the point of being downright wrong.
So, some help for a brethren, if you will.

Well, nothing yet but hang in there; we’ll see if we can get some help for this perplexing protestant problem.

 

[William_C]

An Ecumenical Council is not a small thing: all the bishops and the most renowned theologians gather under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring the Church a greater understanding of God’s will. Surely, even if we want to believe that God left the leaders of the largest Christian community on their own, they still deserve the basic respect that the young and inexperienced owe the elder and wise.

What does the quote you mention actually say?

Canon 32 says that the good works of the justified man are gifts of God but they are also merits of the justified man; it also says that the good works that the justified man accomplishes by the grace of God and the merits of Christ actually merit the justified man a further increase in grace.

I find no contradiction in this teaching of the Council. Nowhere is said that man becomes his own savior or attains his own justification. All it says is that performing those works does not make us simply tools with no will in the hands of God, but also merit us additional grace because by our free will we are collaborating with God.

Your works are merit eternal life, and an increase your justification (canon 24, I believe).

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

 

[R_C]

Your works are merit eternal life, and an increase your justification

Yes.

Nowhere is said that man justifies himself or becomes his own savior. It clearly says that the works of the justified man are the gifts of God and that the justified man performs those works by the grace of God and the merit of Christ.

All it clarifies is that - as you point out - the works increase justification (see the Scriptures quoted, which say just that) and that they merit eternal life. The worker gets his just salary, the athlete his crown. No doubt, salvation comes from God and we are all saved in the same way…the works merit eternal life, but without faith and without the salvation of Christ we could never perform them.

It is also clear that there must be, out of justice, a greater merit for someone like Peter or Paul or Stephan than for us humble sinners…this is even found in the Book of Revelation:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. …] hen each of them was given a white robe

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Man could not gain eternal life by his works alone, and could not perform those works by his own. We could not even call God “Father” on our own! It is through the gift of faith and the grace gained for us by Christ that we can perform those works, which are a fruit of faith. However, as the Revelation shows by means of symbols, some have a greater merit and a greater glory because of the great works that they have done, or rather, that God has accomplish through their free collaboration.

Above them all, of course, is Jesus, who is worthy of the greatest glory not because He is God, but because of His great and marvelous work of salvation:

And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”

But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” …]

And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

[R_C]

Even the apostle in the letter to the Philippians points out how great a reward did the Son of Man earn by His work, and how we ought to imitate Him in this:

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death–even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.

Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me, otherwise believe because of the works.

Man is not saved by works alone, but the works are the only witness to the faith. That is why the apostle said, echoing Christ: “I will show you my faith by my works”.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I was wondering if someone could interact with me in the writings of St. Paul concerning his teaching on justification. Obviously most will not wish to participate. However, as someone who is seeking the truth, and who must submit to truth above any man, there is no better place to start than to debate concepts and definitions.

Now, I would like to say that in Paul, there are places where to be “justified” CANNOT mean an inner renewal and sanctification of the inner person so that an behaviorally unjust person become behaviorally just (to literally make one righteous instantaneous and progressively). For instance,*** “…for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified…on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the world through Jesus Christ”*** (Rom 2:13, 16). Since this justification takes place at the end of this human history, and because it is a justification which is based on examining the whole life lived, it CANNOT mean a kick-start for a new moral transformation from which unjustness becomes justness. Rather, justification in Rom 2 must refer to a forensic declaration on a person, a verdict, based upon a finished examination of that person’s life (i.e. whether they did good or bad). Do you see this? Therefore, we have an instance where justification is a legal declaration based on one’s life and obedience.

In other places, Paul speaks of a justification which takes place now in our time, when we are converted in faith to Jesus. We are “justified” (rom 3:24- past tense) through the “redemption” which is in Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus brings a liberation from sin which accomplishes a justification which then is spoken of as happening in the past. “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law” (Rom 3:28). We see that there is a past tense to this justification, so that faith issues in justification, and not works. Justification is otherwise defined in terms of pardon and forgiveness (Rom 4:1-9) a restored relationship to God in peace (Rom 5:1-2), and a new status of being in God’s grace (Rom 5:9). In fact, it is the “blood” of Jesus which justifies us (Rom 5:9). Not the regeneration and renewal of the human heart in baptism.

Therefore, how can we define justification as a transformation of the inner person whereby they convert from practicing wickedness to practicing righteousness, by which is later used by God to appropriately declare someone just and holy???

Paul is speaking of a justification “of the ungodly”!! This is language of pardon and remission of sin, reconciliation, and a new status in God’s favor!

I know that many of you may be quick to turn to James 2:24 which definitely (it truth) teaches that Abraham was justified by works, and not by faith alone. We have a situation here, for Catholics sometimes do not realize that Paul teaches that Abraham was “justified” when He believed in Genesis 15:6, right? But James is speaking of Abraham being “justified” by works later in his life? And both times, the word “justified” is used in the past tense!!! In other words, Abraham was justified by faith in God’s promise, it was done (past tense). Then, no less real, Abraham was justified by works later on, and it was done (past tense).

Justification takes place 2 times in Abraham’s life, so far as the Scripture is teaching. We should understand then that justification, in neither Paul or James, is the spiritual transformation of a person’s heart, but in both cases (Abraham/James), justification is a forensic declaration passed over the human creature once their faith and works are examined and tested. Do you it never is referring to the ongoing spiritual renewal and progressive sanctification which occurs in our lives? It is a declaration, a verdict, on the basis of faith and works, that one is right in God’s sight.

How can we bring this to reconcile with Trent?

 

[William_C]

All it clarifies is that - as you point out - the works increase justification (see the Scriptures quoted, which say just that) and that they merit eternal life. The worker gets his just salary, the athlete his crown. No doubt, salvation comes from God and we are all saved in the same way…the works merit eternal life, but without faith and without the salvation of Christ we could never perform them.

Yes, your works merit eternal life. That’s not biblical.

 

[R_C]

Yes, your works merit eternal life. That’s not biblical.

James 2:24:

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Nobody argues that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” (Romans 3:20): works do not justify by themselves. Also, since God “did not save us on the base of works” (Titus 3:5) and “the righteousness …] comes from God and is by faith” (Philippians 3:9) “we conclude that a man is justified by faith” (Romans 3:28), but not by faith alone (James 2:24). Faith is* the seed of salvation*, and if the seed bears no fruit, it is dead (Luke 8:5-8), and so are we (Matthew 7:21). True faith leads to great works, as the Lord says:

I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works.

We may want to deny the conclusions of the Ecumenical Council. But can we deny James 2:20?

You vain man, do you want evidence that faith without worksis useless?

What about 2 Timothy 4:7-8?

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have *kept *the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me

Are not biblical the Lord’s words in Matthew 7:21?

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

For even the demons believe and know that God is omnipotent and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Yet, because of their evil works, they are condemned. We would face the same destiny, but by the merits of our savior and the gift of faith we can repent and receive grace, which will allow us to do the good works.

The Church teaches these things about faith with works, based on solid biblical evidence and on a solid sacred tradition. Luther ignores the biblical evidence, denies the sacred tradition, and out of his own interpretation he draws his (unjustified) conclusion that “* it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us*”. Yet, it seems from the fact that after 5 centuries there is still great disagreement and the majority of Christianity does not agree with sola fide, that this was neither clear, nor certain. How true are these words of Christ: “wisdom is justified by her works”!

The Father of the Church Augustine was very concise:

Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.

Which is why, with no contradiction, the sixth session of the Council of Trent concluded:

Having, therefore, been thus justified …] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, …] and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified …]

Hence,* to those who work well* unto the end …] eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace …] through Christ Jesus, and as a reward …] to their good works and merits".

 

[R_C]

You may want to check this thread in which we have been (and still are) discussing about this very topic (starting from page 15, post 214).

Eventually on p. 17 we reach Trent (my post on the topic here).

 

[Michael_Francis]

Merged threads covering same topic.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Debate on…

 

[mac1234567]

www.gotquestions.org has the answers!!!
Also type how to be saved on google!!

 

[R_C]

type how to be saved on google

:crying:

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

The scripture teaches that mankind, because of its guilt and slavery to sin, is disabled from being just in Gods examination by works and effort to make oneself righteous.

The law ofGod brings the revelation of sin, death, and condemnation.

The problem is not the law, but adamic flesh, that is humanity which is in and from Adam. A corruption of the heart and body is there from birth.

Justification is the act where God sets us righteous in his sight in the context of baptismal regeneration and the renewal of the holy spirit (Titus 3:1-7). However justification itself is the forgiveness and remission of sin ( watch the equation made in rom 4:7-9). Justification is accomplished by God (rom 3:26) and it is done apart from human works. Though it is effected in and through baptism and recreation, it remains to be Gods declaration that our sins are forgiven and that we are righteous precisely because of Jesus’ death, and not any human works. If we are, as St. Paul said, justified by His blood (rom 5:9) then it is neither human works done by self or human works done by God in the human that form the cause for justification, precisely because Christ’s death has no connection to human works, hence the gratuitous nature of justification (rom 3:24), and christs’s death has this exclusive all-sufficiency when it comes to justification (gal 2:20-21).

Therefore, we are joined to christ by faith and baptism, and justified by Gods grace. However there is a later justification which examines our works, not our belief, which determines our final destiny.

 

[William_C]

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Works as justification that the faith professed is a saving faith. I have no problem with that.

R_C:

Nobody argues that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified” (Romans 3:20): works do not justify by themselves. Also, since God “did not save us on the base of works” (Titus 3:5) and “the righteousness …] comes from God and is by faith” (Philippians 3:9) “we conclude that a man is justified by faith” (Romans 3:28), but not by faith alone (James 2:24). Faith is the seed of salvation, and if the seed bears no fruit, it is dead (Luke 8:5-8), and so are we (Matthew 7:21). True faith leads to great works, as the Lord says: I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works.

Works as a demonstration is my position, it’s not yours. Your position is that works save you:

Having, therefore, been thus justified …] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, …] and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified …]

Hence, to those who work well unto the end …] eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace …] through Christ Jesus, and as a reward …] to their good works and merits".
See?

R_C:

We may want to deny the conclusions of the Ecumenical Council. But can we deny James 2:20? What about 2 Timothy 4:7-8? Are not biblical the Lord’s words in Matthew 7:21?

“We?” Don’t include me in your “we.”

My rejection of your position is not a denial of Scripture.

I believe Luther said, “we are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone.”

R_C:

The Father of the Church Augustine was very concise: Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.

I have no problem with that statement.

 

[Micah11]

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:53:54)

Christ has eternal life, and so we eat his flesh and drink his blood so that we can live the life of Christ eternally, not the life of a beast, or of an animal, but the eternal life of God.

God reserved the consumption of human flesh and the consumption of any blood until the perfect flesh and the perfect blood came down from heaven to give life to the world. In this the Law of Moses was fulfilled completely.

It’s not some random rule about blood. It’s about life, and which life you choose to live - the life of an animal or the life of Christ?

-Tim-

Then why is it that the bread and wine of the new covenant is not mentioned in the gospel of John?

 

[R_C]

Your position is that works save you:

Having, therefore, been thus justified …] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, …] and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified …]

Hence, to those who work well unto the end …] eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace …] through Christ Jesus, and as a reward …] to their good works and merits".
See?

One of us is not fully understanding this quote from the Council

I am not claiming I’m right, but it simply does not seem to me that the quote says that “works save us”. It says that those who are justified will attain eternal life both as a grace through Christ and as a reward to the good works.

I like that quote: “by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone”. Sort of contradictory. If the faith is not alone, then we are not saved by faith alone but by faith (the seed) and that which accompany it (the works, which are its fruits).

Can you see how close our positions actually are? As it is always the case, the protestant viewpoint does not add, it just takes away. We believe that we are saved by faith and works, and the protestant reform says: nay, faith only.

Well, then how do you define “faith”? Because it seems that we are saying the same thing, only that we define faith as the virtue by which we believe in God and in His revelation, while you seem to define faith as something that includes both belief and works. Yet Christ clearly states that faith alone does not include works: works are a separate thing, a consequence of faith, made possible by faith, evidence of faith. Works are not faith. Which is why works alone do not save