Discipline and depression

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vash88

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I’ll be 30 in a few years and I’ve been reflecting a lot lately on my childhood and young adulthood. The glaring issue I had in my childhood was that I had poor discipline. I was below average in school because I didn’t care, and I was spoiled. I won’t go too much into that though. Probably not coincidentally, I’ve also had issues with depression and anxiety. I’ve had to talk to psychiatrists off and on throughout my childhood and was even put in an in-patient anger management rehab-like thing for about 2 months when I was in 8th grade.

These past few years as an adult though, I’ve realized how necessary discipline is, and how a lack of it really does limit oneself as they progress through life. I know the old saying is that strength isn’t about how many times you fall down but how quick you get back up… but the last time I was depressed, I took about 5 years to even start getting back up. But I’ve really been trying to improve, but I find myself every now and then having trouble staying motivated as my depressed and anxious thoughts still creep back into my head. I fight them, and pray, go to Church, talk with a Priest, all that stuff. And those things do help, but the thoughts do come back every now and then.

So I’m wondering (and don’t take this the wrong way – I’m NOT trying to justify myself, but rather I’m looking for more hope as I fight this), if depression and anxiety is caused by a lack of discipline, but the depression/anxiety sometimes comes back as the person is trying to grow in discipline causing the person to stumble, is there any decrease in culpability when they stumble? I ask because depression is often said to be an illness, and it is, but I’m not sure if depression caused by a lack of discipline is quite the same.

Please pray for me as well.
 
Depression an illness, and the culpability is the same no matter what the catalyst.
 
Having a routine and responsibility for keeping with it? Many studies agree that these things help depressed people not fall down a hole. Exercise and sunlight, too, as well as learning to get past automatic negative thoughts.
 
Mintaka said:
Having a routine and responsibility for keeping with it? Many studies agree that these things help depressed people not fall down a hole. Exercise and sunlight, too, as well as learning to get past automatic negative thoughts.
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Plus turning to prayer, having a strong social support network, and therapy. And following through with the advice of heathcare professionals (therapist, psychiatrist, etc) 🙂

Will pray for you 🙂
 
Depression is an illness and if you fall into it, there is not actual culpability as if you did or did not do something to cause it. Please do not feel as if depression is your fault.

If discipline helps you, then try your best to stick with it. If you can’t, then cut yourself some slack. Do the best you can and treat yourself with kindness daily. Don’t beat yourself up.

Please continue to pray and also please seek treatment when you need it.

Sending up a prayer!
 
vash88 said:
I’ll be 30 in a few years and I’ve been reflecting a lot lately on my childhood and young adulthood. The glaring issue I had in my childhood was that I had poor discipline. I was below average in school because I didn’t care, and I was spoiled. I won’t go too much into that though. Probably not coincidentally, I’ve also had issues with depression and anxiety. I’ve had to talk to psychiatrists off and on throughout my childhood and was even put in an in-patient anger management rehab-like thing for about 2 months when I was in 8th grade.

These past few years as an adult though, I’ve realized how necessary discipline is, and how a lack of it really does limit oneself as they progress through life. I know the old saying is that strength isn’t about how many times you fall down but how quick you get back up… but the last time I was depressed, I took about 5 years to even start getting back up. But I’ve really been trying to improve, but I find myself every now and then having trouble staying motivated as my depressed and anxious thoughts still creep back into my head. I fight them, and pray, go to Church, talk with a Priest, all that stuff. And those things do help, but the thoughts do come back every now and then.

So I’m wondering (and don’t take this the wrong way – I’m NOT trying to justify myself, but rather I’m looking for more hope as I fight this), if depression and anxiety is caused by a lack of discipline, but the depression/anxiety sometimes comes back as the person is trying to grow in discipline causing the person to stumble, is there any decrease in culpability when they stumble? I ask because depression is often said to be an illness, and it is, but I’m not sure if depression caused by a lack of discipline is quite the same.

Please pray for me as well.
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You’ve gotten a lot of good advice. I’d add that paradoxically, your thinking about your lack of discipline could be feeding your depression!:eek:

Be as kind to your childhood self as you would be to a child today.

I know for myself that (having children of my own), as my kids get older, I understand better and better why I did the stuff I did as a kid, and I get better and better at forgiving and understanding my younger self, just as I forgive and understand my kids.
 
Having been both depressed and grossly undisciplined, I’d say this:

Depression is like a trick knee. You may have it because of some fault of yours, some failure in preparation or some bad decision-making in the past for which blame could be assessed, but once you have it you have a physical issue. Your neurology and physiology are different than someone who has never been depressed. Like someone with an addiction, if you are prone to depression you must take that psycho-physical feature in yourself into account when you set your goals and boundaries and when you self-assess your progress and your needs.

Actually going through depression is, in emotional energy terms, like flying a plane on instruments. You’re doing what you’re doing because you* know you ought to* do it that way, you really are trusting what you know is real over what you see and know is a trick of the mind, but even when you are doing the right thing that will keep you from crashing you cannot directly sense that you’re doing the right thing. It doesn’t always feel right. You don’t get the consolation or validation of directly perceiving the value of what you’re doing. That lack of emotional self-validation is really tiring. That is why you cannot just “power through” depression.

Secondly, though, when you are depressed you need the intellectual validation of looking back at your day and being able to say, “I did what I set out to do today.” You need the energy-saving structure of having routines that “discipline” you. Maybe a normal pilot can just look out the windows and fly by feel, but you need to pay attention to the instruments–that is, you need to intellectually self-assess in a way that other people may not have to do. You need to be in communication with the tower. You need to admit you need some help because regardless of whether it is your own fault or not, you are doing something harder than a typical pilot does.

I’d say on that account that the advice that you a) take care of yourself and stay realistic rather than overly pessimistic or overly optimistic about what you’re going to accomplish and how disciplined you are going to be with your time and b) don’t try to accomplish this all by yourself. As an undisciplined person, you will naturally resent someone on the outside “telling you what to do,” but you absolutely do need to know that you’re going to have to be accountable to someone besides yourself. You do need a co-pilot. If possible, don’t lay that on just one person, because heaven help you if that relationship gets rocky or the person has issues sapping their energy, too.

As for your past, it is “innings played.” It affects where you are today, but you can’t go back and re-play what is in the past. It gave you today’s situation, but you cannot do what you need to do now by dwelling on what you ought to have done then. Play this at bat now, then, and focus only on what the past taught you. Otherwise, forget it. Repent what you wish you had done differently, do not agonize over whether you were culpable or incapable, and let it go.
 
Even if you were not, from your present perspective, “disciplined enough,” maybe the geometry of your life then led into the depression?

For that matter, depression can exist in childhood, and might be, rather a “character flaw”, the reason for your issues back then.

The past cannot be corrected, but we need to forgive our past self in order to live life.

ICXC NIKA
 
Sometimes being disciplined can bring on a cold monotonous life which can lead to depression. So can being very hard on oneself to achieve an idea of perfection, that actually might be unattainable in real life.

Don’t make discipline your savior, make Jesus your savior. We do the things we ought to do when we love God fully and want to do them joyfully because of that love for Him- we see that its helpful and we* want *to do it because of that love. Jesus says that his yoke is easy and burden light. “for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.”

We are also supposed to hold ever thought captive- that means to think about what we are thinking about and question it- is it true? Does it fit with God’s word? God’s word is how we know Who Jesus is and how we recognize what is from God or not. St. Jerome said ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ- Do you think Jesus would want you to feel the way you described in your post OP? If you met Jesus today and you said the same things to Him, how do you think he would respond to you? What do you think He would say to you? Would he strike you in condemnation, or in soothing fashion help inspire you to reach the level of discipline and peace (not depression) that you may never have even thought attainable and chop out all the unnecessary unhelpful beating of one’s self up.

It is true that discipline brings on good things and its also true discipline is needed in life, but there is also a balance that is needed between that and recreation/play/fun/relaxation… don’t try and cut those things out of your life in favor of ‘discipline’, as if those things aren’t a part of life or that God ignores someone when they are having fun or enjoying life… NO! God is not a task driver cruel master! … … its also a discipline to make sure you get the prudent amount of fun and ease too. (All monasteries include set amount of time for recreation and 'down time") If one gets too fixated on becoming disciplined, one can foolishly cut off parts of oneself that are healthy, necessary and good, leading to problems in the soul. G.K. Chesteron writes about ‘the element of surprise’… chesterton.org/lecture-78/
If you suffer from depression I have heard that it is anger turned inward.. sometimes its root is pride (wanting to be more, have more, look better- have something for self, have something to prove that is not in line with who you are and who God created you to be) sometimes that can be misidentified piety- so not pointing any fingers here, but that you can look inward and try and ask yourself questions to figure out what is going on with that depression. Hold the candle, the light of God's Word, to all those thoughts- in love, not accusatory fashion.
 
vash88 said:
… I know the old saying is that strength isn’t about how many times you fall down but how quick you get back up… but the last time I was depressed, I took about 5 years to even start getting back up. …
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You still got back up. It might have taken 5 years, but you still got back up.
Code: 
I could scribble out an artistic masterpiece in 20 minutes or I can spend a month and a half painting one...   is the scribbly one better than the one that took longer to do?   Both are masterpieces.   Both took the necessary time to get achieved.   The "strength" was in 'the doing', not how much time it took to achieve the end results.
Also, should we shame the flabby person (who just started weight lifting) because he couldn’t lift the lighter weights without shaking? Eventually, if they keep getting back up and trying and doing, they will get past that… ignore the naysayers…and just do it. What I’m trying to say is this: EVEN if you don’t have “strength” keep doing it anyway because eventually there will be breakthroughs. Everyone starts somewhere. Humble yourself! … In love! And this might sound really weird, but THANK GOD FOR IT! Be overjoyed about it! At least you get the opportunity… not everyone does!

The “old saying” you quoted here is kind of flawed if you ask me… just stick to God’s Word as truth. Its solid and dependable.
 
AnneElizabeth said:
You still got back up. It might have taken 5 years, but you still got back up.
Code: 
I could scribble out an artistic masterpiece in 20 minutes or I can spend a month and a half painting one...   is the scribbly one better than the one that took longer to do?   Both are masterpieces.   Both took the necessary time to get achieved.   The "strength" was in 'the doing', not how much time it took to achieve the end results.
Also, should we shame the flabby person (who just started weight lifting) because he couldn’t lift the lighter weights without shaking? Eventually, if they keep getting back up and trying and doing, they will get past that… ignore the naysayers…and just do it. What I’m trying to say is this: EVEN if you don’t have “strength” keep doing it anyway because eventually there will be breakthroughs. Everyone starts somewhere. Humble yourself! … In love! And this might sound really weird, but THANK GOD FOR IT! Be overjoyed about it! At least you get the opportunity… not everyone does!

The “old saying” you quoted here is kind of flawed if you ask me… just stick to God’s Word as truth. Its solid and dependable.
Click to expand...
About this, too, is a good reminder that for those with particular struggles, like being overweight or depressed, tasks that seem “easy” for “normal people” are actually harder. An overweight person has to lift not just the weight but also their own body. A person who is depressed frequently has to overcome more to do the basic stuff. A non-depressed person just isn’t dealing with that.
 
This is an interesting link, by the way:
youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

Mental problems with a physical aspect have a emotional and spiritual aspect, too. You cannot address the physical problem without addressing the emotional and spiritual aspect
.
The “Rat Park” idea is in keeping with the life stories of people who suffer from addiction.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone. Perhaps I’ve been too strict on and impatient with myself. I’ve also heard that depression is anger toward inward, so perhaps I’m trying too hard to somehow live up to certain standards. I just feel like I didn’t learn enough as a kid and am now dealing with the consequences. I find that it’s hard to talk to people as an adult about issues that should’ve been dealt with as a kid. Perhaps I fear consequences for mistakes will be harsher as an adult, especially since it seems that society is so judgmental these days. I do have a hard time forgiving myself. I’ll be talking to a Priest about all of this at some point next week, as well as a psychiatrist. Thanks again everyone, and please, keep me in your prayers.
 
This is what occurred to me. Often, the reason children are not disciplined is the parent just doesn’t care to put the energy required into disciplining a child. EG There is a lady in my building with VERY noisy kids. She is so fed up with her kids that when they act up, she locks herself in her bedroom so she does not have to hear them (yet the people living under her sure hear the stopping).

As much as a kid may in the moment enjoy acting up… there is also a rejection that comes with it. Mom locked herself in her bedroom because she doesn’t want to be with me.

Now, I don’t know what you mean by ‘lack of discipline’, but I do suspect at some point, you interpreted it as a reject. And my suggestion is to learn to overcome the feeling of rejection and then the problems you are facing today will get better

Angie
 
It can be really hard when a proper balance isn’t modeled for us when we’re young or even if it is but the steps to take aren’t clear or we don’t get some mentoring. Most any human learning task comes harder without a teacher - cooking, driving, algebra, anger management, financial skills, you name it.

While we mustn’t get bogged down in regrets or resentment at having to cobble certain skill sets from scratch, we can try and make the learning process more enjoyable. When it comes to discipline, try to be a firm yet kind “parent” to your own self, one who will provide the necessary boundaries, but with a sense of humor and compassion. 🙂
 
Well… This is a very hard post to make. Please forgive me if this is at all offensive (either the link or the body of my post itself), but I’m just at such a loss. And I feel like I need to be open and share this if not for my benefit, someone else’s.

I think this may explain my depression: gospeltruth.net/1851OE/511119_repentance.htm

I feel like my depression is a result of being given false hope for so many years while having an unwilling spirit (to repent). One of my old spiritual advisors (who knew of my stubbornness and lack of discipline) when I first came to God taught me that it was okay to ask for God to “make me willing.”. I’ve also always been told “Just let God love you and repentance will come later!” Over the last ten years those two pieces of advice have been what I fall back on.

But that lecture I linked to, which seems very well thought-out and accurate from my perspective, seems to suggest otherwise. Now I feel like I’m trying to “conjure up” repentance on my own because God may have finally hardened my heart after being unwilling to repent for so long. Perhaps my depression exists because God has given up on me.

What brought this worry on is this: I am a Methodist who was baptized as a baby. But lately, as I mentioned in the OP, I’ve been meeting with a Priest, and recently started attending Catholic Church (I didn’t mention in the OP that my going to Catholic Church is recent – and I’m not a Catholic). A couple of days ago I met with the Priest again. And I asked him if, knowing that I’m not a Catholic, I could give a Confession (He had previously said that I was under the Seal of Confession when talking to him, which I found odd since I wasn’t a Catholic). He reaffirmed his earlier stance, saying that if I was baptized at all in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then it would be okay. So he said the next time we spoke, he would hear my first confession. Initially I just thought “Okay, cool” and left it at that.

But then as I was heading home, I had a pretty big anxiety attack. I started wondering if I was doing the right thing or if the Confession would be valid. I thought about my cavalier attitude (“Okay, cool” ) to agreeing to my first Confession, and then the reality of it set in. I got terrified. I didn’t even know why at first. All these different doubts and worries flooded in all at once at such a rate that I couldn’t even make sense of them.

After thinking for a while, I thought maybe there were certain things I’ve done in the past that I didn’t even really think much of but turned out to be sin. But upon hearing that they’re a sin, am I truly sorry? I mean, perhaps doing those things so much have turned into such a habit that I can’t truly repent.

And if I can’t truly be sorry about them, I can’t/won’t repent. And if I can’t/won’t repent, what’s the point of confessing? But according to that lecture if the message is true and I understand it correctly, if I don’t repent, all my prayers are useless, and I can’t even ask God to help me with this.

Having said all that, I realize I need professional help, but back to my original point, if God has given up on me, what’s the point? That’s not to say I won’t get help just for my own sake. But spiritually-speaking, I’ve been so self-absorbed for so long that I don’t know if I even can repent now. I may have deceptive worldly sorrow , but not true Godly sorrow that brings repentance, because I’ve been resisting it for so long. As a result, I may or may not “feel better” but so what? Those are just feelings, which have been deceiving me for years. What drove me to post this could just be the works of my strong sorrow and nothing more.

And of course, all the verses of the unforgivable sin, and falling away, come to mind, but I’ve been going on for long enough. Please, if God allows it, pray for me. And again, I hope I didn’t offend with this post. I am desperate.

Edit: By the way, no time was set for the Confession. The Priest is waiting for me to call. So for those wondering, I won’t be going until I’m sure it’s okay (if it is).
 
The next time you see a priest, tell him, “Father, I think I might have scruples.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity
vash88 said:
Well… This is a very hard post to make. Please forgive me if this is at all offensive (either the link or the body of my post itself), but I’m just at such a loss. And I feel like I need to be open and share this if not for my benefit, someone else’s.

I think this may explain my depression: gospeltruth.net/1851OE/511119_repentance.htm

I feel like my depression is a result of being given false hope for so many years while having an unwilling spirit (to repent). One of my old spiritual advisors (who knew of my stubbornness and lack of discipline) when I first came to God taught me that it was okay to ask for God to “make me willing.”. I’ve also always been told “Just let God love you and repentance will come later!” Over the last ten years those two pieces of advice have been what I fall back on.

But that lecture I linked to, which seems very well thought-out and accurate from my perspective, seems to suggest otherwise. Now I feel like I’m trying to “conjure up” repentance on my own because God may have finally hardened my heart after being unwilling to repent for so long. Perhaps my depression exists because God has given up on me.

What brought this worry on is this: I am a Methodist who was baptized as a baby. But lately, as I mentioned in the OP, I’ve been meeting with a Priest, and recently started attending Catholic Church (I didn’t mention in the OP that my going to Catholic Church is recent – and I’m not a Catholic). A couple of days ago I met with the Priest again. And I asked him if, knowing that I’m not a Catholic, I could give a Confession (He had previously said that I was under the Seal of Confession when talking to him, which I found odd since I wasn’t a Catholic). He reaffirmed his earlier stance, saying that if I was baptized at all in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then it would be okay. So he said the next time we spoke, he would hear my first confession. Initially I just thought “Okay, cool” and left it at that.

But then as I was heading home, I had a pretty big anxiety attack. I started wondering if I was doing the right thing or if the Confession would be valid. I thought about my cavalier attitude (“Okay, cool” ) to agreeing to my first Confession, and then the reality of it set in. I got terrified. I didn’t even know why at first. All these different doubts and worries flooded in all at once at such a rate that I couldn’t even make sense of them.

After thinking for a while, I thought maybe there were certain things I’ve done in the past that I didn’t even really think much of but turned out to be sin. But upon hearing that they’re a sin, am I truly sorry? I mean, perhaps doing those things so much have turned into such a habit that I can’t truly repent.

And if I can’t truly be sorry about them, I can’t/won’t repent. And if I can’t/won’t repent, what’s the point of confessing? But according to that lecture if the message is true and I understand it correctly, if I don’t repent, all my prayers are useless, and I can’t even ask God to help me with this.

Having said all that, I realize I need professional help, but back to my original point, if God has given up on me, what’s the point? That’s not to say I won’t get help just for my own sake. But spiritually-speaking, I’ve been so self-absorbed for so long that I don’t know if I even can repent now. I may have deceptive worldly sorrow , but not true Godly sorrow that brings repentance, because I’ve been resisting it for so long. As a result, I may or may not “feel better” but so what? Those are just feelings, which have been deceiving me for years. What drove me to post this could just be the works of my strong sorrow and nothing more.

And of course, all the verses of the unforgivable sin, and falling away, come to mind, but I’ve been going on for long enough. Please, if God allows it, pray for me. And again, I hope I didn’t offend with this post. I am desperate.

Edit: By the way, no time was set for the Confession. The Priest is waiting for me to call. So for those wondering, I won’t be going until I’m sure it’s okay (if it is).
Click to expand...
 
vash88 said:
I’ll be 30 in a few years and I’ve been reflecting a lot lately on my childhood and young adulthood. The glaring issue I had in my childhood was that I had poor discipline. I was below average in school because I didn’t care, and I was spoiled. I won’t go too much into that though. Probably not coincidentally, I’ve also had issues with depression and anxiety. I’ve had to talk to psychiatrists off and on throughout my childhood and was even put in an in-patient anger management rehab-like thing for about 2 months when I was in 8th grade.

These past few years as an adult though, I’ve realized how necessary discipline is, and how a lack of it really does limit oneself as they progress through life. I know the old saying is that strength isn’t about how many times you fall down but how quick you get back up… but the last time I was depressed, I took about 5 years to even start getting back up. But I’ve really been trying to improve, but I find myself every now and then having trouble staying motivated as my depressed and anxious thoughts still creep back into my head. I fight them, and pray, go to Church, talk with a Priest, all that stuff. And those things do help, but the thoughts do come back every now and then.

So I’m wondering (and don’t take this the wrong way – I’m NOT trying to justify myself, but rather I’m looking for more hope as I fight this), if depression and anxiety is caused by a lack of discipline, but the depression/anxiety sometimes comes back as the person is trying to grow in discipline causing the person to stumble, is there any decrease in culpability when they stumble? I ask because depression is often said to be an illness, and it is, but I’m not sure if depression caused by a lack of discipline is quite the same.

Please pray for me as well.
Click to expand...
I have depression and anxiety … it is difficult to fight these two conditions and stay on course with all the things I want to do to follow my faith … but I do indeed believe that the more I stay on course in following my faith, the better the depression and anxiety get … so when I see myself going off course, I remind myself that things are worse when I step away … for me, Jesus is a great medication.
 
As a person who has battled scruples myself, OP, your most recent post rang that bell. I’m glad other posters saw it too. My confessor when I was at wits’ end with them was Father Thomas Santa, who has gone on to write a book about the condition, and worked with Scrupulous Anonymous which publishes a newsletter. As a Methodist you may not have heard about the scrupulous condition because it tends to be easier to spot in Catholics but it can happen to anyone. I hope and pray this information will help lead you on the road to sorting out and healing what has troubled you for so long. May God bless and protect you.
 
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