Discipline for bad behavior which occurs in church

[Spyridon]

I hope not.

So judgmental and quick to condemn.

Be honest with me here and speak frankly:

Would you like to see me brought up on charges and persecuted and jailed for this?

 

[Spyridon]

The police officer actually wouldn’t handcuff the nine year old. They have standards for dealing with children.

Not true.

9 year old’s are subject to arrest.

So if a cop does it, it’s okay.

But a parent does it, it’s abuse.

So the State has more authority over children than the parent?

 

[casslean]

If you did this to your child, I would contact Children’s Aid and report it so that they can help you learn better parenting methods.

Not everything is as absolute as “You should go to jail for that!” and “Well, that’s perfectly okay.”

 

[Spyridon]

If you did this to your child, I would contact Children’s Aid and report it so that they can help you learn better parenting methods.

Not

Is hitting a child intrinsically evil? Is corporal discipline never acceptable?

 

[F_Marturana]

This side discussion about zip ties is not fair to Holly. At all. She wants advice on how to care for a toddler.

Physical restraints on a child is abuse. Plain and simple.

 

[casslean]

Nine year olds can be detained, but restraining a child is a different matter than arresting them. And arrests are not handled as they are if the individual is an adult.

It is also extremely extenuating circumstances where a nine year old would be arrested. Simple assault, even on a police officer, wouldn’t suffice.

 

[MikeInVA]

So if a cop does it, it’s okay.

But a parent does it, it’s abuse.

A policeman uses handcuffs to control someone he’s taken in to custody, he doesn’t use them to punish.

 

[Spyridon]

policeman uses handcuffs to control someone he’s taken in to custody, he doesn’t use them to punish.

So a parent can’t use a restraint to control their child and regain custody over them?

So the State has greater authority over children than parents, right?

If it’s “detaining unto custody” when the State does act a, but it’s “child abuse” when the Parent does act a, then one can rightly say the State has greater authority over children than parents.

 

[casslean]

We aren’t talking about corporal discipline. We’re talking specifically about zip tying children’s hands.

 

[MikeInVA]

Would you like to see me brought up on charges and persecuted and jailed for this?

That’s almost as extreme a solution as zip tying a child’s hands. I would ask you to release your child and hope that a gentle correction to you would suffice.

 

[Spyridon]

That’s almost as extreme a solution as zip tying a child’s hands. I would ask you to release your child and hope that a gentle correction to you would suffice.

I think if you actually saw me implement what I have in mind, you’d probably be okay with it.

 

[casslean]

If it’s “detaining unto custody” when the State does act a, but it’s “child abuse” when the Parent does act a, then one can rightly say the State has greater authoriy over children than parents.

No.

A police officer cannot handcuff every person they arrest, and they would not handcuff a child. They have to use reasonable force, and if they handcuffed anything but an extremely violent child, they would be charged with assault.

 

[MikeInVA]

So a parent can’t use a restraint to control their child and regain custody over them?

You’re changing your tune. You originally wanted to use zip ties to punish the child for a period of time. You did not say that you needed to use zip ties to control an unruly child (which I would have issue with unless there were special circumstances).

 

[Spyridon]

You did not say that you needed to use zip ties to control an unruly child (

What’s the difference between punishing and controlling?

Both are necessary to remain in a position of authority over a child.

God both punishes us and controls us.

When God allows someone to break a bone, is God guilty of child abuse?

If God punishes someone with death, is he a child abuser?

 

[Spyridon]

What do the folks who think my idea of ziptying hands is abuse make of these Scripture verses:

Sirach 30:12-13
"Bow down his head in his youth,

beat his sides while he is still young,

Lest he become stubborn and disobey you,

and leave you disconsolate.b

Discipline your son and make heavy his yoke,

lest you be offended by his shamelessness."

Footnote:

“Sound discipline (which would include physical beating) and careful education of children correct self-indulgence and stubbornness, prevent remorse and humiliation, and bring to parents lasting joy and delight, prestige among friends, jealousy of enemies, perpetuation and vindication of themselves through their offspring (vv. 1–6). Lack of discipline and overindulgence of children bring sorrow and disappointment, terror and grief (vv. 7–13).”

 

[MikeInVA]

Where to begin…

What’s the difference between punishing and controlling?

If you don’t know, you have no business raising children nor giving advice on raising children.

Both are necessary to remain in a position of authority over a child.

They are tools (when used in the proper context) to help you raise a child. I think you’re too focused on authority.

God both punishes us and controls us.

God is our Father and does what is best for us.

When God allows someone to break a bone, is God guilty of child abuse?

If God punishes someone with death, is he a child abuser?

You can’t be serious here.

 

[Spyridon]

So the Holy Spirit taught error/evil when he taught people to beat children…

That means the Bible isn’t inspired.

That means the Catholic Church is false.

That means we’re dead in our sins, and the greatest fools among men.

 

[Spyridon]

You can’t be serious here

I’ve been 100% serious, honest, and sincere in every letter I’ve written.

 

[MikeInVA]

You’re on a slippery slope and taking the Bible way too literally. Children need discipline. I don’t think they need to be beaten. Child beating is not a tenet of the Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

I think ziptying their hands for a few minutes is a form of creative discipline for the crime of hitting another person.

It is not as damaging a hitting a child for hitting. The child learns that hitting is ok if the person doing it is bigger and stronger.

The problem here is that the behavior training cannot be done during Mass. It has to be done outside of Mass.

The police officer actually wouldn’t handcuff the nine year old. They have standards for dealing with children.

You are right, they are more likely to use a zip tie!

So the State has more authority over children than the parent?

Unfortunately, in many cases, yes.

Is hitting a child intrinsically evil?

No, but it blurs the message. It communicates that striking another person is ok depending on who is doing the hitting.

Is corporal discipline never acceptable?

Certainly, but Mass is not the best time to implement it.

A policeman uses handcuffs to control someone he’s taken in to custody, he doesn’t use them to punish.

Which begs the question, how can a parent effectively achieve safety, security, and control of the children in their custody?

A police officer cannot handcuff every person they arrest, and they would not handcuff a child. They have to use reasonable force, and if they handcuffed anything but an extremely violent child, they would be charged with assault.

If you think a police officer is not ready, willing and able to physically restrain/detain a child who kicks or otherwise assaults them, you are dreaming!

So the Holy Spirit taught error/evil when he taught people to beat children…

That means the Bible isn’t inspired.

That means the Catholic Church is false.

That means we’re dead in our sins, and the greatest fools among men.

Spy, now would be a good time for you to mute this thread.