Discouraging a relationship based on the partner's parents?

[Allegra]

There is absolutely no situation where it is inappropriate to set boundaries with anyone. This is even more true when the person in question or interactions with them threatens your marital relationship.

If you teach your children that sometimes, you just have to let people run amok and harm your marriage or family, it won’t matter what kind of in-laws they have, because eventually, someone will notice their spinelessness and take advantage, be it a friend, co-worker, in-law, or even you.

I think what he might mean is that sometimes one’s boundaries might have to change based on a situation. For example, I don’t allow smoking in my own home, but it’s inappropriate for me to tell others not to smoke in someone else’s home. In that case, the only thing I can reasonably do is either put up with the smoking, or not go to that place where the smoking is going on. If “that place” happens to be the bar where my father is celebrating his 60th birthday, I may decide to adjust my boundaries because I love my dad and I want to attend his party more than I hate smoking. I guess my point is, there are certain boundaries that are non-negotiable, while others are only reasonable in certain circumstances. One might make allowances and put up with behavior that is annoying from one family member in order to have access to other family members, especially if the annoying family member is disabled or some body else’s minor child. On the other hand, there are some behaviors that are so toxic, no one should feel obligated to put up with them ever. Unfortunately, many of my family members are afflicted with various degrees and shades of crazy, so I have had a lot of experience early on with figuring out which hills I’m willing to die on, but that is part of the process of discerning marriage too. It’s not necessarily so important for a potential spouse to have the perfect family. (Especially since that can and will change over the years.) What’s important is that people discerning marriage are on the same page about how they will work together when boundaries need to be set and enforced, because they will need to be set at one point.

 

[Norseman82]

I explained quite clearly that this was simply what spurred me into thinking about the question I actually posted, which is whether atrocious parents are a big enough red flag to cause a parent to discourage a relationship with the offspring of said parents.

At the same time, one must also ask if it is Christian to condemn someone to a life of loneliness and misery due to the actions of their parents and not their own?

 

[chevalier]

We were at a play date-type thing the other day and our youngest daughter really hit it off with this little boy who was there. The moms there were all taking notice and making jokes about them growing up and getting married. I laughed along but cringed every time they said something because the boy’s father was unbearable. He was very domineering, nitpicked over everything the kid did and encouraged him to essentially bully the other kids, affirming his actions when he stole their toys, pushed another boy down, etc. Aside from that, he was just one of the most horrible, annoying people I’ve ever met (deplorable hygiene, wearing a dirty Star Trek T-shirt, and incessantly wiping his constantly-dripping nose with his entire arm, etc.). This got me to thinking that, as a parent, should my daughter actually meet up with this boy later in life and the father was still the same, would it be right of me to discourage a relationship?

I ask because, as the mothers were making their jokes and he was burping in people’s faces and telling his son, “Good boy” when he kicked over another kid’s blocks, I got to thinking about other people I know whose marriages are either strained to the breaking point or have broken up largely due to meddling or unbearable in-laws. I know the standard response is to tell people to butt out of their kids’ relationships, but if you see them entering into a relationship where trouble is pretty much inevitable, wouldn’t it be best to at least give them fair warning and try to get them to consider the long-term ramifications of a partner’s parents?

Just like everything else, not excluding income potential, parents are a legit factor within the limits of proportionate practical relevance.

Parents are an influence on their children but also challenges in their own right as you have to put up with them and the 4th commandment starts to apply.

 

[EasterJoy]

At the same time, one must also ask if it is Christian to condemn someone to a life of loneliness and misery due to the actions of their parents and not their own?

That’s why I suggested avoiding the boy in situations where his father was there to encourage bad behavior. Limit contact to situations where there is an adult who will give the boy a chance to succeed socially by insisting on good behavior.

A child who is not exposed to the natural consequences of bad behavior when he is young will have years to harden in those habits, but eventually the natural consequences will catch up with him. Healthy people will not tolerate being around a bully, which is what the father was encouraging the son to be. Our Lord himself counseled that a recalcitrant brother who refuses to be corrected according to legitimate channels of complaint is to be put out of the church and “treated like a Gentile or a tax collector,” which is to say to be given the dignity of a person but not a position of trust.

 

[chevalier]

who will give the boy a chance to succeed socially by insisting on good behavior

Since when does being a decent person contribute to succeeding socially?

 

[EasterJoy]

Since when does being a decent person contribute to succeeding socially?

The OP cited " essentially bully the other kids…stole their toys, pushed another boy down, etc…"

That’s not making friends. People seem to think childhood is a Machiavellian war zone of appeasing the popular bullies, but in my experience children avoid the society of self-centered children with no manners. Yes, they’ll unfortunately let it slide when the victim of the bullying is unpopular or disliked. They do not just let any bully, likable or not, come in and run roughshod over the whole lot of them while they make not a peep. That kind of kid hears from his peers just what kind of entitled jerk he is. That kind of kid does not get invited places. He either wises up or he gets more and more lonely.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

There is absolutely no situation where it is inappropriate to set boundaries with anyone. This is even more true when the person in question or interactions with them threatens your marital relationship.

I would tend to disagree with this. I can think of several situations from the lives of people I know where, logically speaking, one could say they should have cut ties with a parent or child. However, from a Catholic perspective, in each of those situations doing so would have been morally reprehensible and likely viewed as sinful.

Just borrowing from something a friend went through, let’s say this dad was far worse than what my exposure to him indicated. Thirty years from now, though, he’s suffering from a terminal illness, he can’t manage his own affairs and the only person left in his life is his son, an only child. Even in that state, let’s say associating with the man could disrupt his marriage. From a practical/financial aspect, it could be foolish to cut ties with him. From a moral perspective it could be seen as unacceptable.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

At the same time, one must also ask if it is Christian to condemn someone to a life of loneliness and misery due to the actions of their parents and not their own?

That’s a good point and I would tend to agree that someone shouldn’t have to suffer because of what sort of person their parents are. However, is it wrong to bring that up as a point of consideration for your own children? The people I know who have had issues along these lines have dealt with everything from simple annoyance to far more serious issues like alcoholism, abuse and even serious felonies. No, the kids shouldn’t shoulder any blame for what their parents did, but I believe those issues are things that really need to be considered before embarking on a life with someone.

 

[JanetF]

I mean, there’s discouraging, and then there’s discouraging. If my kids were discerning marriage with someone who had difficult parents, I would point that out and encourage them to discuss setting boundaries with their potential spouse. Actually, I would encourage that anyway, because inlaws can go bad once the wedding is over and become downright putrid once grandchildren arrive.

THIS!

I believe that it’s important to keep the lines of communication open so that your children will come to you and ask you for your opinion about these sorts of things. My daughter met someone in college this past year and they are dating exclusively. My advise to her has been to spend this time getting to know him very well (as well as you can), and if anything crops up that is a deal breaker then you have to really pray about it and listen to what God tells you. I’m a firm believer is knowing someone for several years before marriage for this reason.

Some Key things to consider when dating a potential life mate: 1) How he acts around his mother…is he respectful of her, does he show her affection, and does he listen to her when she talks to him…How a man treats his mother is very indicative of how he will treat other women in his life. 2) how he treats other people in public (waitresses, store clerks) etc. and last but not least 3) his faith life–does he have one, is it strong, is he ambivalent. Just to mention a few…

As far as the OP and the kid at the playground. Steer clear of that one if you meet up with him again and/or use his behavior and a lesson in how your child is not allowed to behave. For example, I used to use the character Angelica from the cartoon RugRats as a negative behavior type.

 

[DarkLight]

Some Key things to consider when dating a potential life mate: 1) How he acts around his mother…is he respectful of her, does he show her affection, and does he listen to her when she talks to him…How a man treats his mother is very indicative of how he will treat other women in his life.

The one thing I will caution on this is that a lot of people who have difficult parents have to interact with them in ways that wouldn’t normally be considered “respectful.” I’ve had my share of having to abruptly end conversations with my mother because it’s the only way to keep the conversation from descending into a storm of awfulness that ends up with hurt feelings on all sides. It’s not what most people consider respectful, but I don’t think it’s something that is necessarily inappropriate either.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Some Key things to consider when dating a potential life mate: 1) How he acts around his mother…is he respectful of her, does he show her affection, and does he listen to her when she talks to him…How a man treats his mother is very indicative of how he will treat other women in his life. 2) how he treats other people in public (waitresses, store clerks) etc. and last but not least 3) his faith life–does he have one, is it strong, is he ambivalent. Just to mention a few…

I’ve had talks with the older girls along these lines a fair amount already. The waitress thing came up not that long ago when we ran into an older girl they know at a restaurant. She was there with her boyfriend and he was downright abusive to the waitress (friendly as could be to the male staff, though). I kept telling the girls to pay attention and that that’s likely how he treats all women in his life. They seemed to get it.

At the same time, after a school function a few weeks ago we had a long talk about one of the girl’s guy friends. We’ve dealt with him before and every time we have he’s been genuinely courteous and respectful (even the teachers and other parents have commented on this). While I didn’t echo my wife’s comments that one of the girls should date him, per se, I agreed that they needed to look out for those qualities in any guy they were interested in. Being a dad, a naturally pointed out that there’s always wolves in sheep’s clothing, but we’ve seen enough from this kid to feel pretty confident that he’s not putting on an act, particularly how he acts that way even when there aren’t adults around and when it’s not at all advantageous for him.

As for #3, I can’t tell you how much I stress that. We know half a dozen or so mixed-faith couples (diametrically opposed, for the most part), and I’m always shocked at how much friction that causes, not just with the couple but between them and friends and family. From my experience, it seems as one of the two always feels that they should have free reign to proselytize their own faith while mocking and condemning Catholics…I mean, “any other faiths,” while at the same time crying foul (and generally pouting or throwing tantrums) if anyone utters a contrary word. In the situations where one side’s parents are on board with that behavior, it makes it far worse.

 

[rebeccanew]

When I went to college my whole idea of life changed for the better. For the first time I saw what life was supposed to be. My parents told me yet it took seeing it from a different perspective to make it sink in. So my advice is make sure you encourage and provide a higher education for your children - its no guarantee just an odds in your favor sort of a thing.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I would tend to disagree with this. I can think of several situations from the lives of people I know where, logically speaking, one could say they should have cut ties with a parent or child. However, from a Catholic perspective, in each of those situations doing so would have been morally reprehensible and likely viewed as sinful.

Just borrowing from something a friend went through, let’s say this dad was far worse than what my exposure to him indicated. Thirty years from now, though, he’s suffering from a terminal illness, he can’t manage his own affairs and the only person left in his life is his son, an only child. Even in that state, let’s say associating with the man could disrupt his marriage. From a practical/financial aspect, it could be foolish to cut ties with him. From a moral perspective it could be seen as unacceptable.

Unacceptable? To cut ties with toxic people or at the very least refuse to interact in ways that are threatening your marriage? I disagree. It is never morally unacceptable to cut ties or limit contact with someone who is hellbent on hurting your marriage, and by extension, your children, regardless of their age or health.

As for not wanting to be cut from a will, you’ve made it this far without the money but with your spouse at your side. Why make a trade?

All of these potential problems can be avoided as long as both spouses believe firmly in the primacy of the marriage over other entanglements - that’s what has to be screened for. It’s better to find a partner who really believes that’s what marriage is who comes from a crazy family, than a partner from a good family who believes it could be acceptable to elevate someone else over their marriage vows.

 

[DarkLight]

Unacceptable? To cut ties with toxic people or at the very least refuse to interact in ways that are threatening your marriage? I disagree. It is never morally unacceptable to cut ties or limit contact with someone who is hellbent on hurting your marriage, and by extension, your children, regardless of their age or health.

Right. The advice I’ve heard in this situation is, as much as you can afford it, hire people to take care of such a person, find resources for them, but you do not have to interact yourself.

The only possible exception I could see were if the person were not of sound mind, and even then the interaction would be limited to getting them into appropriate care (including any necessary financial supports).

 

[reader124]

Marry and then move far away.

 

[reader124]

The one thing I will caution on this is that a lot of people who have difficult parents have to interact with them in ways that wouldn’t normally be considered “respectful.” I’ve had my share of having to abruptly end conversations with my mother because it’s the only way to keep the conversation from descending into a storm of awfulness that ends up with hurt feelings on all sides. It’s not what most people consider respectful, but I don’t think it’s something that is necessarily inappropriate either.

Well that would depend. My mother’s mother is an absolute deplorable person and patholicical lier and cheater. Fortunately, the entire area knows of this and after she tried to get her husband arrested for being a canadian spy nobody takes anything she spews seriously.

 

[JanetF]

Well that would depend. My mother’s mother is an absolute deplorable person and patholicical lier and cheater. Fortunately, the entire area knows of this and after she tried to get her husband arrested for being a canadian spy nobody takes anything she spews seriously.

LOL, at Canadian spies? Sorry, not to detract from your situation, but that just popped into my head.

 

[Norseman82]

I would tend to disagree with this. I can think of several situations from the lives of people I know where, logically speaking, one could say they should have cut ties with a parent or child. However, from a Catholic perspective, in each of those situations doing so would have been morally reprehensible and likely viewed as sinful.

Just borrowing from something a friend went through, let’s say this dad was far worse than what my exposure to him indicated. Thirty years from now, though, he’s suffering from a terminal illness, he can’t manage his own affairs and the only person left in his life is his son, an only child. Even in that state, let’s say associating with the man could disrupt his marriage. From a practical/financial aspect, it could be foolish to cut ties with him. From a moral perspective it could be seen as unacceptable.

“That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife” - Genesis 2:24.

 

[Norseman82]

That’s a good point and I would tend to agree that someone shouldn’t have to suffer because of what sort of person their parents are. However, is it wrong to bring that up as a point of consideration for your own children? The people I know who have had issues along these lines have dealt with everything from simple annoyance to far more serious issues like alcoholism, abuse and even serious felonies. No, the kids shouldn’t shoulder any blame for what their parents did, but I believe those issues are things that really need to be considered before embarking on a life with someone.

Does the kid have the issues, or the parent? If the parent and not the kid, what kind of danger would the parent pose? What kind of measures could be taken to protect against the parent (such as (but not limited to) moving away or legal measures to ensure the problem parent(s) never gain custody of any children)? St. Paul does write that we should help carry each others’ burdens (Galatians 6:2), so is the “simple annoyance” a burden we are truly unable to help with, or are we just trying to avoid our Christian duty?

Just some things to ponder. I can understand when there is a danger, but when I hear someone from a Catholic group recount how she discouraged a relationship because although the person was a good Catholic, “he came from a dysfunctional family”, that is just plain wrong.

 

[Norseman82]

We were at a play date-type thing the other day and our youngest daughter really hit it off with this little boy who was there. The moms there were all taking notice and making jokes about them growing up and getting married. I laughed along but cringed every time they said something because the boy’s father was unbearable. He was very domineering, nitpicked over everything the kid did and encouraged him to essentially bully the other kids, affirming his actions when he stole their toys, pushed another boy down, etc. Aside from that, he was just one of the most horrible, annoying people I’ve ever met (deplorable hygiene, wearing a dirty Star Trek T-shirt, and incessantly wiping his constantly-dripping nose with his entire arm, etc.). This got me to thinking that, as a parent, should my daughter actually meet up with this boy later in life and the father was still the same, would it be right of me to discourage a relationship?

I ask because, as the mothers were making their jokes and he was burping in people’s faces and telling his son, “Good boy” when he kicked over another kid’s blocks, I got to thinking about other people I know whose marriages are either strained to the breaking point or have broken up largely due to meddling or unbearable in-laws. I know the standard response is to tell people to butt out of their kids’ relationships, but if you see them entering into a relationship where trouble is pretty much inevitable, wouldn’t it be best to at least give them fair warning and try to get them to consider the long-term ramifications of a partner’s parents?

Getting back to the original post, I think it would be a tremendous act of charity for someone (or for a group of men) who can bench more than the father to confront the father and set him straight about how such behavior is unacceptable (as well as offer to see if he needs his washer and dryer fixed). Not only would it protect the other children, it would show the son that the father is wrong and hopefully instill an early sense of how not to act with others so he can modify his behavior now rather than get a “rude awakening” later.