Discourse with Mormons

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I have weekly bible studies with two Baptists and two Mormans. I have never had their conversian as my goal. I have approached the studies with three goals.
  • Learn more about the Bible. Some of their insights are valuable. although almost always totally lacking in historical facts.
  • Show how much a Catholic can (and does) love his faith. It surely is a great gift.
  • Finally, show there is a reason for what Catholics believe. We don’t simply blindly follow the pope. We follow the pope because he is a great gift to us from God. The pope’s teaching are incredibly logical and loving at the same time.
My Morman friends probably aren’t on the verge of becoming Catholic, but they do realize that a lot of what they have been taught about Catholics is untrue.

God Bless,
 
If you want to be a missionary, you must learn the culture and beliefs of the people you are going to live among. To understand Mormonism, you must know their beliefs and history and culture.
A good way to start is by picking up a copy of Isaiah Bennett’s Inside Mormonism. Another excellent book is Mormon America, by Richard & Joan Ostling. These are great books to get you
started. Although somewhat dated (it was last printed in 1980), The Changing World of Mormonism, by Jerald & Sandra Tanner gives a fairly exhaustive overview of the doctrinal errors of the Latter Day Saints, by a couple who are ex-Mormons. They are now conservative evangelicals.

Below, I have listed some helpful websites that I think you will find enlightening. There are many websites devoted to refuting Mormonism, but some are better than others, more even-handed, and less strident in tone. I hope this will be of value to you.

My sister-in-law was raised Mormon. A kinder person you will never meet. We must always remember that everyone we see is made in God’s image. And Christ died for them, too!

uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/w188/utopian/mormon-place-names.htm

lds-mormon.com/

irr.org/mit/default.html

xmission.com/~research/about/index.htm

utlm.org/index.htm

–Thornbristle 👍
 
I learned one thing from the many atheists I have debated with. There are two ways to attack a religion: question its doctrine, or question its history. Of course, you could use either of these approaches in your debates with your Mormon friends.

Recently, my religion teacher invited some Mormons in to talk to our class. I did not even bother trying to debate theology with them. They have twisted the Bible so badly that they believe Jesus turned the water into grape juice at the Wedding Feast of Cana. How do they know this? Joseph Smith heard it from an angel, of course!

If I were you, I’d skip straight to the objective stuff. Mormonism can be discredited easily enough in that arena. Ask them if there are any non-Mormons who can confirm that there was wheat, sheep, steel, grapes or elephants in South America before the Europeans came in the year 1500. Explain to them that citing their own scholars’ statements confirming such things is not enough: you are worried that without an objective, third party confirmation, how can they be certain that such things actually existed in South America like the Book of Mormon claims. When I made this request to the Mormons that came into my religion class, they could not respond. They mumbled something about tar pits and moved on to the next question.

Be wary: Mormons are prohibited from looking at any “porn”, i.e. any text that has not been approved by the Mormon hierarchy. It’s sad that they aren’t allowed to explore or question their faith. Had I not had the opportunity to do so, I would not be writing this post now.

Be sure to be Christ-like in your debates with them. I have never concluded a debate convincing anyone of anything. After the words leave your mouth and your encounter has ended, it is up to God to do the converting. So please, remain patient with these people. Good luck!
 
Many fine posts here. The beginning of my “reversion” to the Catholic faith was while I was on my LDS mission in Taiwan. I was getting the sneaking suspicion was what we were teaching people was false, but I would not face it head-on. But there in Taiwan I met, for the first time, Catholics who were on fire for their faith. These were well-catechized, kind and classy folks who were happy to share their homes, their faith in Christ and their love of the bible. It blew me away, because I had never met Catholics like that when I was growing up Catholic in Massachusetts and I had always thought that Catholicism was a dead faith. I began to wonder if there were such Catholics in the U.S. Years later, I found that there are! When I learned the truth about Mormon history and doctrine, I left the Morg. After the anger and bitterness subsided, I recalled the Catholics I met in Taiwan and began to look into the religion of my childhood. And here I am. So plant those seeds and trust in the Holy Spirit to do his work. -Paul
 
I find it fascinating that the Catholic cathedral in Salt Lake City has this scriptural verse painted, I believe, across a large archway in it: “Even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed” (Gal 1:8). Given the story of how Joseph Smith received the Book of Mormon, I think that it is interesting that this verse is so emphasized.

Nevertheless, I do know that the main newspaper in Salt Lake City, owned by the LDS, did a very positive piece on the man who was appointed the bishop of Salt Lake City. And this was right in the middle of the height of the sex abuse scandal.
 
The cathedral here has many more verses besides the one you mention that, if read and pondered, would lead one to realize that the architect/designer was making a point that the Catholic church is THE true Church of Jesus Christ. As an ex-mormon I was in awe of them all the first time I visited the cathedral. It’s amazing that all those verses were right there in the Bible and as a Mormon I never saw them.
 
Tmague and any other former mormons…

I can’t tell you how comforting it is to know that you guys are out there. As to not ramble on about myself, briefly, I was torn between Mormonism and Catholicism for about 10 yrs. It wasn’t until 2002 when I said I can stand this no longer, I took adult sacraments class at our local parish and after much research, prayer, reading, surfing the net, I was confirmed in 2002. My sponsor is an ex-mormon-temple worker, he is byzantine and an awesome guy.

Anyway, I am reading Fawn Brodie’s “No Man Knows My History” right now and it is fascinating.
It is weird though, tell me if you can relate…
I know that the catholic church is the one established by Christ, but sometimes I get twinges and a little nervous that what if I am wrong and the LDS are right…this is sooo embarassing to say because logically I know the faith in itself is illogical and false…but sometimes I wonder if its the old brainwashing remnants that have stuck in my mind or if it is the adversary that just wants to mess things up… :eek:
I am very passionate about the Catholic faith and I have been through a lot of darkness to get here…Can you relate, what happened to you when you left. God bless you and thank you for sharing your thoughts…Without former mormons like you and the wonderful evangelization of strong catholics who know their faith and the flaws in LDS, I really don’t know what I would have done or how I would have learned the truth 👍
I am in Vegas, and tons of Mormons are here…living their faith true and blue. So, I try my hardest to live my faith that way to help others that might be struggling between churches, but I guess sometimes I still need to look to others to help me out, too.

Peace be with you all :blessyou:
 
I am another Catholic living in Utah (hence my screen name) and like the others from Utah, I have had more than my fair share of dealings with Mormons. When I was younger, I was teased for being Catholic. But never once did I want to change religions. Now that I’m an “adult”, I have found it easier to deal with Mormons if I’m not defensive. I don’t cut down their religion even though many I know do cut down the Catholic church. Sometimes I’ve told individuals that they are not going to change my mind by insulting my Church. I have Mormon friends who I can discuss religion with and have no arguments. A lot of times I say “We believe…” or “Catholics believe…” rather than saying “That’s not right…” or “How can you say…” One other thing, the Mormon general conference is held here in Salt Lake City twice a year. Those living here in Utah have learned not to plan outside activities on those weekends, right folks? Anyway, the local news always covers the conference like it’s the most important even on the planet. This last time, the Mormon president made the comment that we are living in troubled times. Then he said but mankind has been living with troubled times since before the earth began. Huh? My husband and I looked at each other with the same confused look. I know a lot about the Mormon religion, not that I’ve had a choice, but I have no idea what was meant by that comment.
Most of the problems in Utah with the Mormon church are things like the state owned liquor stores being closed on Sundays. Public schools were asked not to schedule events on Monday nights because that is the Mormon’s family home evening. Don’t even get me started on the Main Street Plaza issue. Since I’ve lived here all my life I’ve learned that if I don’t want to drive myself crazy, I have to deal with Mormons very delicately. But that’s in Utah. Like I said, if you are not confrontational, the conversation goes a lot better. Then go home and pray for them.
May the peace of our Lord be with you,
Maggie
P.S. the comment about not planning outside activities when conference is being held? There’s a saying here in Utah “When the “Saints” meet, the Heavens weep.” In other words, more often than not, it always rains on conference weekend in Utah.
 
I wonder if this is the best thread for my inaugural post on the new Catholic Answers Board.

I am a LDS. I left the Catholic Church in ignorance of what it was to be a Catholic. I was not lured away; I was not confronted with silly anti-Catholic stuff; I began to look elsewhere on my own. I attended a couple of protestant services, followed by Catholic and LDS services for 6 months, and then I eventually became a LDS.

About 4-5 years ago I began to try to better understand what it was to be a LDS. This lead to a great deal of learning and I hope growth.

A couple of years ago or so, I realized that the deficiencies that I saw within the Catholic Church were really my own deficiencies. Similar to my early experience as a LDS, I was not putting my heart and soul into the Catholic Church. I studied the Catholic Church and prayed for many months. I no longer consider myself one who is considering becoming Catholic again. I still love to learn, and have gained great insight into my beliefs through studying the Catholic Church. I hope to continue doing this.

My comment on this thread (and I do not think it has been made but I did skim about half) is that the sources that have been posted about the CoJCoLDS (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, hopefully the abbreviation will not offend too much) are of the same quality as one would gain reading Boettner’s book on Romanism. I have read what has been called the “Boettner list,” and I have read a few pages by Karl Keating responding to Boettner and anti-Catholicism in general. I would suggest to those who wade through the garbage that is anti-Catholicism that you might understand that much of what is posted on the web sites linked on this thread is similar. Sure it does not attack your religion with lies you personally know to be false, but I would suggest that Catholics (more than any other Christian) should be able to see the parallels.

Charity, TOm
 
I live in Arizona, where Mormons are plentiful and powerful. We have a scandal of serious proportions going on politically right now because of the polygyny (one husband, three or more wives) that is practiced openly in Northern Arizona, on the Utah border, particularly in a town called Colorado City. This has been going on for years. Old men “marry” young girls, who have no choice but to accept their designated “husband.” They are taught from infancy that they were born for plural marriage, and they have to accept it. As a man’s wives grow older, he marries younger ones, serially. It’s God’s will, dontchaknow. He takes turns “servicing” his wives, so no one feels neglected :p. The whole town is on welfare, with pologyny and its social consequences a serious burden on Arizona’s taxpayers.

A former governor, Jack Williams, years ago paid the price for interfering in polygyny in this state – he went to Colorado City (then called Short Creek) with law enforcement officers, to enforce the Arizona laws against bigamy and polygyny, and there was an outcry from Mormons and their supporters that could be heard all the way to the next election, when Williams lost resoundingly. That taught politicians here a lesson, and they look the other way while child molestation proceeds unpunished. Some of these girls, forced to “marry” much older men, are mere children of 13, 14, 15 years of age. Reports of molestation of the children of plural wives have surfaced. Little if anything is being done.

A few women have escaped the polygynist culture and have made their way to Phoenix, where they are speaking out, challenging our law enforcement officials, especially our attorney general. They have set up “safe houses” and are helping young girls to escape. They have been interviewed on TV, but it’s not popular to bring it to public attention. Arizona is financially controlled by the Mormons. The situation deserves much more attention that it is getting.

Of course, Mormons say they do not practice polygyny, having renounced it order for Utah to become a state. And it’s outlawed in Utah (and Arizona!). Practitioners are considered “fundamentalists.” But it’s part of the fabric of Mormonism, a legacy of Joseph Smith who had 49 documented wives, and perhaps as many as 65. It’s written as God’s law into their “scriptures.”

Tell me about Mormon “family values” and I’ll tell you about polygyny.

The Mormon god (one of many gods) is a god who changes his mind rather frequently. He changed his mind about polygyny just in time for Utah to become a state.

Fawn Brodie’s No Man Knows My History is a great book.

Peace be to all who gather here at the forums.
 
Katholikos,

There are three ways in which I could point to the errors you make as you condemn the CoJCoLDS for the practice of polygamy in Colorado City, Arizona. I will start with the most direct and least threatening. Hopefully this will get across my point.

The Catholic Church has had a little over 20 Ecumenical Councils throughout history. Each of these councils has “defined” the faith to settle controversies that previous to the council were both part of orthodoxy (or so history would suggest, also there is some question as to whether Vatican II was actually sealed in the same way other councils were).

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father and not from the Son. If you are Catholic the answer is “No!” But, if you walked with the Catholic Church until the 7th council then decided that authority of God was absent from these councils you would be an Eastern Orthodox Christian. You would reject the filoque clause. Are Easter Orthodox Christians also Roman Catholics? No they are not.

Do you believe that you are saved by Grace alone through Faith alone? If you are Catholic the answer is “No!” But, many Creedal Protestants believe that the authority of God was present until the 4th Council, but then absent after this. If you are a Creedal Protestant you reject some of the declarations at the council of Trent (and certainly some declaration in the 5th, 6th, … councils). Creedal Protestants decided that whatever authority of God existed during the first 4 councils, was gone for the 5th and future.

The above situation is analogous to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (CoJCoLDS) and the Fundamentalist Mormon Church. The FMC believes that the 1890 manifesto and the next 15-20 years of slow but ultimate rejection of the continued practice of polygamy were done by a church with no authority. They point to 1886 and earlier statements that support polygamy. The CoJCoLDS believes that the authority of God was with the leaders as they lead the church away from polygamy. We are now two separate organizations.

I invite you to recognize that while the CoJCoLDS is responsible in some ways for the polygamy that you find so disturbing in Colorado City, it is done by a group who rejected the continued development of the CoJCoLDS and is no longer in communion with the CoJCoLDS. The Catholic Church is responsible in some ways for the great schism and the reformation, but it is done by a group who rejected the continued development of the Catholic Church.

Charity, TOm
 
Andrew Larkoski:
I am a student at the University of Washington, and as a student at a large, public, and fairly liberal school, I see an incredible amount of “Christian” religions that solicit to students. I myself am very active in the Newman Center on campus and recieve a lot of resources on how to defend Christ’s Church.
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Hi Andrew,

I am fellow Washingtonian (Long Beach) and have visited UW many, many times. Are you aware that one of the priests (Father Jordan Vajda, OP) from the Newman Center recently converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (i.e. Mormon Church)?

Grace and peace,

Aug

P.S. Is brother Jerome still at the Newman Center?
 
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AugustineH354:
… one of the priests (Father Jordan Vajda, OP) from the Newman Center recently converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (i.e. Mormon Church)?
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The poor soul must have taken leave of his senses. Let’s pray that he, like Isaiah Bennett, realizes his error and returns to the Church Christ founded. He must have been bamboozled by Mormon propaganda, which can be daunting for the unprepared.

Perhaps he found the allure of becoming a god and ruling over his own planet an offer he couldn’t refuse.
 
God speaks to Joseph Smith, c. 1840:
Thou shalt practice polygyny!

(Joseph complies by taking 49 documented wives, being “sealed” to a total of 66 or 67 living women, and after his death 149 dead women were sealed to him in temple ceremonies. He wrote this “revelation from God” into his “Doctrine and Covenants,” considered Scripture to Mormons. God threatened to destroy Emma Smith, Joseph’s lawful first wife, if she did not accept this “revelation” Doctrine and Covenants 132:54.)

God speaks to LDS President Wilfred Woodruff in 1890:
Thou shalt not practice polygyny (at least, not right now)!

(Woodruff issues his “manifesto” against the practice of polygyny. However, polygyny remains a Mormon doctrine to this day.)

God speaks to Joseph Smith, c. 1830:
Thou shalt deny priesthood in my (LDS) church to Negroes, and they are prohibited from entering my temple.

God speaks to LDS President Spencer Kimball on “Black Friday,” March 6, 1978:
Thou shalt not deny priesthood in my (LDS) church to Negroes, nor prohibit them from entering my temple.

Polygyny = one husband, three or more wives simultaneously.

Polyandry = one wife, three or more husbands simultaneously.

Polygamy = plural marriage, either polygyny or polyandry**.**
 
AugustineH354:

Yes, I did hear that Fr. Jordan left the Catholic Church for LDS. I am a freshman this year, so I never got the opportunity to meet him. I will let you know that our other priest, Fr. Steve Maekawa, is a chaplain in the Navy Reserve and was sent to Afganistan the week after Easter to celebrate the sacraments with our troops. We pray that he will have a safe journey and return next year around Easter time. We have another priest, Fr. Vincent Benoit, now, who is a very solid priest and Catholic. For some reason, Fr. Jordan was a bad apple, but our thoughts and prayers go out to him to come back to Christ’s Church.

About Br. Jerome, he is an awesome guy! He played on our Newman softball and soccer intramural teams. I am sad (for he was a great presence at the Newman Center) that he has left for Peru to continue his studies in becoming a Dominican. Our prayers go out to him too.

If you happen to be in the Seattle area, stop by the Newman Center next school year! There is a high probability that I will be there, and nearly everyone knows me.

Peace.
 
“Who’s your mama, are you Catholic, and can you make a roux?”
  • Emeril Lagasse
😃 :clapping: 😃
 
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Katholikos:
The poor soul must have taken leave of his senses. Let’s pray that he, like Isaiah Bennett, realizes his error and returns to the Church Christ founded. He must have been bamboozled by Mormon propaganda, which can be daunting for the unprepared.

Perhaps he found the allure of becoming a god and ruling over his own planet an offer he couldn’t refuse.Katholikos,

For the moment, I will assume that your words are not intended to offend. I will spare you the cogent remarks from Jordan Vajda some 5 years before he ultimately converted to the CoJCoLDS.

As one who left the Catholic Church ignorant of what I was departing, I stand with Isaiah Bennett as one who makes stupid choices in aspects of their lives were they should be most focused and sure they follow God. It is beyond refutation that Isaiah Bennett either chose poorly when he left or when he returned. I would suggest he made both decisions in the absence proper data. And if I were you Katholikos, I would hesitate to hold him up as an example.

(I view it as quite possible that he frequents here, and I wish to emphasize that the criticism I levy against him I also levy against myself. He earns the criticism because certainly he erred in at least one direction, and I earn the criticism because I know how ignorant I was as I made a major religious decision.)

So while I am certain that Fawn Brodie is not quoted during the LDS missionary discussions, I am equally certain that Boettner is not quoted during RCIA. What constitutes propaganda in your book, Katholikos, I do not know; but I would suggest that from what I know of Jordan Vajda (which is not a tremendous amount more than has been presented here but it is more), he did not make a simple decision to gratify his own desires.

Charity, TOm
 
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Katholikos:
God speaks to Joseph Smith, c. 1840:
Thou shalt practice polygyny!

(Joseph complies by taking 49 documented wives, being “sealed” to a total of 66 or 67 living women, and after his death 149 dead women were sealed to him in temple ceremonies. He wrote this “revelation from God” into his “Doctrine and Covenants,” considered Scripture to Mormons. God threatened to destroy Emma Smith, Joseph’s lawful first wife, if she did not accept this “revelation” Doctrine and Covenants 132:54.)

God speaks to LDS President Wilfred Woodruff in 1890:
Thou shalt not practice polygyny (at least, not right now)!

(Woodruff issues his “manifesto” against the practice of polygyny. However, polygyny remains a Mormon doctrine to this day.)

God speaks to Joseph Smith, c. 1830:
Thou shalt deny priesthood in my (LDS) church to Negroes, and they are prohibited from entering my temple.

God speaks to LDS President Spencer Kimball on “Black Friday,” March 6, 1978:
Thou shalt not deny priesthood in my (LDS) church to Negroes, nor prohibit them from entering my temple.

Polygyny = one husband, three or more wives simultaneously.

Polyandry = one wife, three or more husbands simultaneously.

Polygamy = plural marriage, either polygyny or polyandry**.**
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Katholikos,

I am beginning to think that your you are so eager to paint the CoJCoLDS into a bad light thus protecting other Catholics that you just do not care if you are offensive. Remember you are not a protestant. You have the ability to point to apostolic succession and tread lightly as you point out the errors in the beliefs of others. You do not need to base your whole platform on the errors of other religions.

If you wish to start a thread on the priesthood restriction or the practice of polygamy, I will be happy to engage you on these things.

Or if you are more concerned with the fact that change has occurred within the doctrine of the CoJCoLDS then we may discuss this, but while I am generally pretty laid back and content to discuss Catholic doctrine on a Catholic board without throwing stones, I also believe that those who throw stones from a glass house should be reminded of the house in which they live. Continuing revelation is LDS doctrine and thus no big thing, but despite what you may be interested in suggesting, doctrinal development is a Catholic reality.

Charity, TOm
 
:love: Just want to comment on the ongoing discussion…we need to remember to first act and speak with LOVE> It is ok to be “on fire” for Christ and His church, but…“If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or clashing cymbal.” (1Cor 13,1) Our angry confrontations or if we are inappropriate about another’s beliefs can be the stumbling block to their conversion. Let’s treat each other with respect and love first, then dialogue can occur. Our Mormon friends will be open and feel safe to share with us and to listen to us. For many of us our faith has deep family and emotional roots that go back generations, we can only bridge that with love and prayers.
 
e-friend TOm,

I thought the title of this thread was “Discourse with Mormons.” Discourse means “discussion” or “conversation.” The discussion isn’t restricted to certain topics – but if you want to restrict it, you may, of course. I’d be happy to post anywhere you feel is appropriate, if any issues I have introduced on this thread offend you. But “discourse with Mormons” is a general topic. It means discourse about anything Mormon, as far as I understand the term. Perhaps you have a different interpretation.

Have I given any incorrect facts? If so, please correct me. I have a very direct writing style. I do not intentionally offend anyone, and I do not engage in name calling or insults. I usually take the shortest distance between two points. But my only intention is to tell it like it is, as I understand it. If I have erred in any statements I have made, you have every right to correct me and complain.

No, I’m not Protestant – but I was. I was also an agnositc and an atheist before “Christ shined his ever-lovin’ light on me” and led me into the Church He founded.

Fawn Brodie is (or was?) a distinguished biographer and an accredited, university trained, acclaimed historian who teaches (or taught?) history at UCLA. She was also a Mormon, prior to researching her book. * No Man Knows My History, The Life of Joseph Smith*, won the Alfred A. Knopf award for biography the year it was published. It has been judged by others and found to be “One of the best of all Mormon books, scholarly, comprehensive and judicial, . . . a masterly job of thorough research” (NY Times) and a “significant contribution to understanding American’s past” (LA Times). It was scrutinized by Brodie’s peers and applauded for the quality and care of its research.

One can hardly compare Brodie’s work to that of Boettner – who had no acedemic credentials whatsoever and whose “history” is a work of fiction that has been completely discredited. No serious scholar places any credence in it. It was written by a bigot for bigots.

Sorry if I have offended you, but I’m at a loss to know what I did, other than to write the truth.

“Development of doctrine” is growth in the Church’s understanding of the truths of divine revelation. The god of Mormonism (one of many gods) gives “revelations” that are mirror opposites. The doctrines are conflicting and contradictory. And, they are opportune.

We could have a lively discussion on a thread entitled: Are Judaism and Christianity Monotheistic or Polytheistic?
Shall we?
 
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