Discussing homosexuality

[kill051]

That’s hilarious, adgloriam! And I like the greeting! It’s fascinating what alternatives there are to ‘Hello’ in other cultures, like ‘Gruss Gott’ in Bavaria, or ‘Have you eaten yet?’ in China.

 

[Thorolfr]

This to me is like saying members of a certain race are violent towards each other or more likely to be the victims of violence. Usually the main driving factor is NOT that these people are innately mentally prone to violence; such statements usually come from bigots or oppressors. The main driving factors are often rooted in a lot of societal causes including things like social and economic factors, self-esteem, whether people in that group have good family lives as children, etc. Someone with low self-esteem who was abused at home is likely to also be in abusive relationships as an adult because that is all they know.

A significant number of gay people did not grow up in a nice, loving household, due either to the breakdown of the family generally (which also causes many straight people to grow up in a bad environment) or because they were gay and not accepted by parents. Even where the parents are accepting, many gay young people get bullied by their peers.

It’s important to look at systemic factors that affect any group when trying to understand what’s going on. Many researchers have pointed out that just belonging to any minority or marginalized group can result in what is called “minority stress” because being a member of these groups requires extra effort. Being the only female employee in a company where all the other employees are men or being the only black guy at a college dorm can be stressful and it takes a toll over a long period. A stress researcher at Yale named John Pachankis says that a lot of damage gets done to gay people between the time when they’re 12 or 13 and realize that they’re gay and the time when they finally come out and start to tell other people several years later, sometimes 5 or 6 years later. And unlike members of most other minorities who can go back to their families or friends for emotional support, most gay people during this period before they come out have to deal with everything on their own and at a young age.

 

[Thorolfr]

I have some gay friends who are Portuguese, so I guess that not all Portuguese men are like you.

 

[theCardinalbird]

Those I know all said they became interested in man in their adult age, all except one had girlfriends before that. I asked about the SSA, they said they hadn’t really thought much about it in their youth. (Any statistic for this?)

I suppose people recognize that they have SSA at different points in their lives?

 

[adgloriam]

That’s hilarious, adgloriam! And I like the greeting! It’s fascinating what alternatives there are to ‘Hello’ in other cultures, like ‘Gruss Gott’ in Bavaria, or ‘Have you eaten yet?’ in China.

I especially like “Gruss Gott” and “Adeus” (A-Deus, meaning “to God”) for goodbye in Portuguese.

 

[Mary888]

The more I write, the more I think my questions is ‘How do I know I did what God expected of me’. I understand that God gave everyone free will and I have to respect it. And I am more than happy to respect his opinion no matter how much I disagree. But how much am I expected to speak out?

We have to speak out according to Jesus, who asked us to confess our faith. But we should also be ready for the slaps we get for it. The fact that there are slaps and labels up ahead of us do not mean we are excused from confessing the faith.
Considering the situation between you and that guy I also think he was just using gays to sexualize the discussion with you as others said so. If you like him better go on a date with him than just drinking alone with him. Maybe he did know what a Catholic believes and he wanted to capture your attention and a debate is always better than jokes about marriage.
Maybe he doesn’t even care about lgbtq issues… he just knew you will not be quiet if he brings it up since you are Catholic.

 

[cmscms]

I told her homosexual are children of God and need to be helped. They used to be bullied which was wrong but encouraging their behaviour is just as wrong

 

[cmscms]

But the underlying message with the pride flag is that homosexual behaviours are OK. That is why I have a problem. If there was a symbol that states homosexuals can refrain from having same sex relations with the help of God, i would see that as a good thing

 

[cmscms]

No what she means that if a man is depressed, moving in with his boyfriend will not take away the depression. He needs to look at the cause of his depression (what it has to do with his sexuality or other issues) and deal with the cause. Not use sin as the solution

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My experience of flags is that they mean different things to different people. This is why for example we have such a controversy when a US flag is burned. To one person, burning a flag means a symbolic gesture of disagreement with a US policy, or an exercise of free speech (which is very “American”). To another person, burning a flag means disrespect of all of our war dead.

I do not object to someone else wanting to express a position against the Pride flag but I think it’s important in that case that you explain your objection to the person you speak to, for example: “I don’t display the Pride flag because I feel that by doing so, I would be condoning same-sex sexual relations, which are against the teaching of my church.” The other person could then say, “Well, I choose to display the Pride flag because I believe it is about showing gay people that they are safe if they enter my home or business and that no one will harass or physically harm them.” This type of discussion leads to a greater understanding between people than simply fighting over a flag.

 

[cmscms]

I understand what you are saying. However, at the time the 13 year old said ‘they have a flag in the park’, she seemed happy so I just assumed she though engaging in homosexual acts is a good thing.

But on the other hand, I also think that maybe things are discussed to openly. For example, when I go to the gym, it is to work out. I don’t see the point in putting a flag on the gym to say it is safe for homosexuals, because I can’t help but think the only reason a homosexual (in theory) is going to the gym is to work out. The sexual orientation in the building is irrelevant so why even mention it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, you can feel free to tell the business owner what you think of the flag, or you can simply ignore it if it’s not relevant to you yourself working out there, or you can change gyms and give your money to a different one. Those are your options.

 

[Joe_5859]

I suppose people recognize that they have SSA at different points in their lives?

I see no reason why not. It seems likely to me that different people experience SSA starting at different times and perhaps even starting for different reasons. I don’t see why it has to be one-size-fits-all in terms of those things.

It really doesn’t matter in terms of Catholic teaching when or why someone’s SSA begins. Either way, we are called to love others and to treat others with dignity and respect. And the teaching on Catholic sexual ethics is established.

 

[Jezra]

Which causes more damage? A straight couple having a one night stand and the female falling pregnant or a gay couple having a one night stand?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

The tenant may not have been depressed, as in clinically depressed. He may just have been sad, lonely, missing a certain someone, and if that’s the case, moving closer to someone would help alleviate the “depression.”

 

[anon10271182]

I gave up hunting bears, after some time with 'TisBearself here. Out of respect.

 

[somecanadian]

In my experience when discussing the sinfulness of homosexuality it usually works best to discuss the actual harm it does from a Catholic perspective.

1. Promiscuity. There have been countless studies that show the majority of homosexual couples are extremely promiscuous and as we know this leads to a greater chance to spread diseases as such behavior is risky. How does this affect us? Well, for one, where I live anyone can donate to a blood bank and they recently abolished the law that requires blood testing that would catch diseases that are most common in homosexual groups.
2. Depression amongst homosexuals isn’t just caused by societal rejection. Imagine being with a partner you can never procreate with naturally. What a tremendous pain this must be! And yes there are other ways to obtain a child but the two in the relationship will never together create a life and I am quite sure this is quite painful and distressing. Part of the depression probably also comes from the difficulty in dealing with finding a partner who will be loyal (as stated above promiscuity is higher in homosexual groups). Then add to that those who probably don’t WANT to be gay (shocking, I know, but sometimes people don’t want to have the desires they have).
3. Same-sex parents are not ideal for children. There have also been studies done on this subject that show children thrive when they have opposite sex parents. Anyone who has raised a child can also confirm that children need a parent of each gender to properly learn how to navigate this life. They learn different things from each parent. Now, lots of hetero couples are not ideal for children either (abusive relationships are obviously bad for kids) BUT why wouldn’t we try to give kids the absolute BEST start in life instead of deliberately placing them in situations that are not ideal for them?

So for me it’s not ‘bad’ because God said so but God said it was bad because it is. It’s not good for humans to only seek desire, it’s not good for humans to do things that objectify other humans, it’s not good for society as a whole to celebrate and embrace a way of life that is, by it’s very nature, sterile.

But. That’s just my belief. As a Catholic I am called to love everyone.

And I always am sure to add the caveat that I also view pre-marital sex among heteros as wrong and I also view promiscuity in heteros as wrong and I also view all sexual sin as disordered for many of the same reasons listed above.

In general when I explain things in this way it is received with some disagreement but not the same level of anger since it’s a discussion that doesn’t hinge on: Because God said so.

PS: this is obviously a dumbed down version of the discussions I normally have since I tend to work with the person where they are as opposed to just dumping this all on them in bullet form.

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s true that depression is higher among gay men, but I don’t think that your analysis is very convincing. According to a study of depression in gay men from 2017 in the American Journal of Men’s Health:

In terms of cause–effect and triggers for depression, a range of factors have been detailed, many of which are intertwined with the stress that can accompany being part of socially marginalized gay communities (Mays & Cochran, 2001; Meyer, 1995, 2003). Meyer’s (1995, 2003) minority stress model highlighted four interconnected factors: (a) prejudice events, (b) expectations of rejection and discrimination, (c) concealment of identity, and (d) internalized homophobia. In the specific context of prejudice events, which refers to the multiple forms of antigay violence and discrimination (Meyer, 2003), a Canadian study reported that 47% of gay men had experienced harassment, 42% bullying, 16.1% workplace discrimination, and 13% physical violence because of their sexuality (Ferlatte, Dulai, Hottes, Trussler, & Marchand, 2015). Additional studies have also demonstrated that such events are associated with depression and emotional distress (Diaz, Ayala, Bein, Henne, & Marin, 2001; Hatzenbuehler, McLaughlin, Keyes, & Hasin, 2010; Herek, Gillis, Cogan, 1999; Herek, Gillis, Cogan, Glunt, 1997; Huebner, Rebchook, & Kegeles, 2004; Lea, de Wit, & Reynolds, 2014; McCabe, Bostwick, Hughes, West, & Boyd, 2010; Meyer, 2003). Research has reported that depression in gay men often starts early on in adolescence and continues into young adulthood (Marshal et al., 2011). Depression among young gay men has been associated with prejudice events such as school-based victimization (Burton, Marshal, Chisolm, Sucato, & Friedman, 2013; Russell, Ryan, Toomey, Diaz, & Sanchez, 2011). Young gay men can experience prejudice in their family in the form of rejection, often after disclosing their sexual orientation during adolescence, which in turn can heighten young men’s risk for depression (Ryan, Huebner, Diaz, & Sanchez, 2009).

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1557988316685492

 

[Thorolfr]

Continued:

The expectations of discrimination and homophobic rejection can also negatively affect gay men’s mental health (Hatzenbuehler, 2009; Meyer, 2003). For example, in an American study of gay men, those who perceived increased homophobia and the world as dangerous for gay men were more likely to report depressive symptoms (Hatzenbuehler, Nolen-Hoeksema, & Erickson, 2008). Concealment of one’s identity can be a strategy adopted by some gay men to ward off potential discrimination and violence (Herek, Chopp, & Strohl, 2007; Meyer, 2003). This strategy can be exhausting and has been reported to increase the risk of emotional distress among gay men (Cohen, Blasey, Taylor, Weiss, & Newman, 2016; Walch, Ngamake, Bovornusvakool, & Walker, 2016). With the persistence of antigay messaging, gay men can have difficulty accepting their sexual orientation and experience inner conflict (Körner et al., 2008; McAndrew & Warne, 2010). As a result, this can heighten internalized homophobia further contributing to the risk for depression (Feinstein, Goldfried, & Davila, 2012; Frost, Parsons, & Nanin, 2007). Self-acceptance is therefore a critical element for gay men’s well-being, as is being accepted by others (Ash & Mackereth, 2013).

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1557988316685492

 

[Alex337]

1. Promiscuity. There have been countless studies that show the majority of homosexual couples are extremely promiscuous and as we know this leads to a greater chance to spread diseases as such behavior is risky. How does this affect us? Well, for one, where I live anyone can donate to a blood bank and they recently abolished the law that requires blood testing that would catch diseases that are most common in homosexual groups.

I am making the assumption that you’re from Canada, please correct me if this isn’t the case. As a regular blood donor I was interested in this claim and I checked the Canadian blood donation site (Canadian Blood Services Donation Testing) and it would seem to me that they still test all blood for such risks.

In terms of the assertion that homosexual = promiscuous, I would think a lot of this has to do with the long time society spent trying to stop homosexual couples from entering into legally binding, lawfully recognised unions. Marriage equality, and even civil unions, are still quite new after all. I’m also not convinced that correlation equals causation. It seems that the institutions that often support monogamy, such as churches, having been so virulently opposed to homosexuality means that this community hasn’t benefited from those teachings as much as it could have; to me this seems like more reason to offer up support.

I already mentioned in a different thread the need for sex education and sex safety which is often neglected in terms of homosexual sex.

1. Depression amongst homosexuals isn’t just caused by societal rejection. Imagine being with a partner you can never procreate with naturally. What a tremendous pain this must be! And yes there are other ways to obtain a child but the two in the relationship will never together create a life and I am quite sure this is quite painful and distressing. Part of the depression probably also comes from the difficulty in dealing with finding a partner who will be loyal (as stated above promiscuity is higher in homosexual groups). Then add to that those who probably don’t WANT to be gay (shocking, I know, but sometimes people don’t want to have the desires they have).

Not everyone wants children, and not everyone wants their own biological children. I have to say if I found out I was infertile I doubt I’d care? Both of my parents were adopted, I know deep in my heart that it’s who raises you that matters.

Jealousy seems just as common in heterosexual couples as in homosexual ones, being the worry that ones partner may not be loyal. By the same token if you think most homosexual folk are not loyal then why would this even bother them?

Conversely as someone who isn’t heterosexual, and is often mistaken for gay (it’s fun how when you tell someone of the opposite sex that you don’t really find them attractive they assume it’s because you’re gay), I’d say it’s the level of abuse and harassment that’s far more upsetting.