Discussing Mary

[NotWorthy]

Who else besides them did Christ use to write inspired-inerrant scripture?

Do you consider the pope to have greater authority than the apostles?

Luke and Mark come to mind.

I consider the Pope to have no more authority than the Apostles, and no less either.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes. You can find it in the NT.

So you don’t know everything Jesus taught (according to John’s Gospel), but you know everything the Apostles taught?

 

[justasking4]

So you don’t know everything Jesus taught (according to John’s Gospel), but you know everything the Apostles taught?

That is true since all we have are the writings of the aposltes. Certainly they did teach orally but we don’t know what it was since it was not written down.

 

[NotWorthy]

That is true since all we have are the writings of the aposltes. Certainly they did teach orally but we don’t know what it was since it was not written down.

So it is NOT true that you know everything the Apostles taught.

But you do agree that they taught mostly orally, don’t you?

 

[justasking4]

NotWorthy;2696477]So it is NOT true that you know everything the Apostles taught.

We can only know what they taught by the writings they left. That is all we have. Now, can you show me what they did teach orally that is not recorded in Scripture?

But you do agree that they taught mostly orally, don’t you?

Yes

 

[LilyM]

Who else besides them did Christ use to write inspired-inerrant scripture?

Do you consider the pope to have greater authority than the apostles?

How about every SINGLE writer of the OT for starters? Every one of those blessed chroniclers and prophets, some of whose names have been lost to us.

Or are their writings somehow not inspired-inerrant because they were before His time?

 

[justasking4]

How about every SINGLE writer of the OT for starters? Every one of those blessed chroniclers and prophets, some of whose names have been lost to us.

Or are their writings somehow not inspired-inerrant because they were before His time?

Good point. These writings of the OT prophets would be scripture. Are writings outside the scriptures inspired-inerrant?

 

[LilyM]

Yes. You can find it in the NT.

All apostolic teaching contained in the NT? Ridiculous. Two-thirds of the Apostles are hardly even mentioned by name - even in the Gospels and Acts let alone everywhere else!

We can be sure that Thaddeus, for example, and Matthias, were every bit as active as Peter and Paul in spreading the Gospel. Yet not a word is written of what they taught.

Let’s put things in perspective here. James survived for ten to fifteen years after Christ before He was martyred by Herod in 44 AD.

So he taught for a period roughly three to five times as long as Christ’s own ministry of three years. Logically, the records of James’ teachings should then be three to five times as long as any of the Gospels if ALL was recorded.

Remember that’s James alone, and he was the first of the Apostles to die. Imagine how long the written records of St John’s teaching should logically be, given that he outlived Christ by sixty-some years.

Care to make the ridiculous assertion again that all Apostolic teaching is contained in the NT?

 

[justasking4]

All apostolic teaching contained in the NT? Ridiculous. Two-thirds of the Apostles are hardly even mentioned by name - even in the Gospels and Acts let alone everywhere else!

We can be sure that Thaddeus, for example, and Matthias, were every bit as active as Peter and Paul in spreading the Gospel. Yet not a word is written of what they taught.

Let’s put things in perspective here. James survived for ten to fifteen years after Christ before He was martyred by Herod in 44 AD.

So he taught for a period roughly three to five times as long as Christ’s own ministry of three years. Logically, the records of James’ teachings should then be three to five times as long as any of the Gospels if ALL was recorded.

Remember that’s James alone, and he was the first of the Apostles to die. Imagine how long the written records of St John’s teaching should logically be, given that he outlived Christ by sixty-some years.

Care to make the ridiculous assertion again that all Apostolic teaching is contained in the NT?

You make some good points but it doesn’t help us one wit if we don’t know what it was they did teach orally if its not written down.

 

[LilyM]

You make some good points but it doesn’t help us one wit if we don’t know what it was they did teach orally if its not written down.

That’s what the Church exists for!!! IT through the guidance of the Holy Spirit has preserved even the Apostle’s oral teachings! IT is preserved in ALL truth so that the gates of Hell can’t prevail through it teaching error.

Christ wouldn’t say to the Apostles ‘who hears you hears me’ without giving us a way to hear them, now would He? And we need to hear every blessed word. This is only possible through the Church which preserves it all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

And note He didn’t say ‘who reads what you write hears me’. The written word alone isn’t quite the thing either.

 

[NotWorthy]

We can only know what they taught by the writings they left. That is all we have.

No, no, no. We also have the Church that they left. Well, WE do, you don’t.

Now, can you show me what they did teach orally that is not recorded in Scripture?

Yes

Well, we have infant baptism for one. Although no where in Scripture is it explicitly taught that infants shall or shall not be baptized, we do have the Apostolic Church baptizing infants.

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
We can only know what they taught by the writings they left. That is all we have.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If you mean by “Apostolic Church” the aposltes teaching baptism then we are going to need to see this explicitedly in the scriptures themselves. I can understand catholics and others wanting to claim infant baptisms did take place and is scriptural but i think the evidence against it being biblical is stronger.

Really, where in the Bible does it say we cannot baptize infants? It’s pretty silent.

Besides, in infant baptism. The parent speaks in behalf of the child. Just as when the Jewish couple speaks in behalf of the infant when they are being circumcised.

Do you believe that there is some kind of “oral traditions of the apostles” that has been handed down thru the centuries that is not contained in the scriptures?

Yes, we do. We Catholics believe it and so does the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2700715]Really, where in the Bible does it say we cannot baptize infants? It’s pretty silent.

The major problem with it is that it violates the divine order that a person must first believe and then be baptised.

Besides, in infant baptism. The parent speaks in behalf of the child. Just as when the Jewish couple speaks in behalf of the infant when they are being circumcised.

Baptism and circumcision are 2 different things. Again we have no record or teaching in the NT of such a thing.

Yes, we do. We Catholics believe it and so does the Eastern Orthodox Church.

This is a good topic for another thread. i don’t want to risk closing this thread by pursuing this to far. (Although i suspect that there are some who would like to see me go away )

 

[LilyM]

Exactly what do you have that the apostles did not write down that is not in scripture? There is nothing left today that tells us exactly what the apostles taught orally.

For one thing we have such concepts as the Real Presence - clearly the overwhelming majority of even the very earliest Christians believed that the Eucharist literally was the body and blood of Christ, not symbolic. They were accused of cannibalism by pagan Romans for this very reason.

From where did they get this idea if not taught to them by the Apostles themselves?

Now Jesus does speak to the Eucharist being His body and blood in scripture, but we know how many different ways THOSE passages have been interpreted in the last 500 years So it can’t strictly be called a scriptural notion.

If you mean by “Apostolic Church” the aposltes teaching baptism then we are going to need to see this explicitedly in the scriptures themselves. I can understand catholics and others wanting to claim infant baptisms did take place and is scriptural but i think the evidence against it being biblical is stronger.

Do you believe that there is some kind of “oral traditions of the apostles” that has been handed down thru the centuries that is not contained in the scriptures?

Absolutely there is - it is contained in the teachings of the Catholic Church!!!

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking4:

The major problem with it is that it violates the divine order that a person must first believe and then be baptised.

According to who, and by who’s authority?

Baptism and circumcision are 2 different things. Again we have no record or teaching in the NT of such a thing.

Circumcision is the sign from the Old Covenant. Jesus establish a New Covenant and replace circumcision with baptism. Take a look at Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts.

Circumcision in the OT is but a shadow of the things to come, which Jesus Christ had revealed. I think there is a another topic for this, so this is the last one on this subject.

This is a good topic for another thread. i don’t want to risk closing this thread by pursuing this to far. (Although i suspect that there are some who would like to see me go away )

This is a good topic, I believe Michael aka Church Militant made a thread on Infant Baptism.

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking4,

Here is the thread on the Case for Infant Baptism.

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2700769]According to who, and by who’s authority?

Jesus. See for example Mark 16:16;Acts 10:43-48; 1630-33.

Circumcision is the sign from the Old Covenant. Jesus establish a New Covenant and replace circumcision with baptism. Take a look at Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts.

Circumcision in the OT is but a shadow of the things to come, which Jesus Christ had revealed. I think there is a another topic for this, so this is the last one on this subject.

This is a good topic, I believe Michael aka Church Militant made a thread on Infant Baptism.

 

[justasking4]

justasking4,

Here is the thread on the Case for Infant Baptism.

Thanks-- i’ll check it out…

 

[NotWorthy]

Exactly what do you have that the apostles did not write down that is not in scripture? There is nothing left today that tells us exactly what the apostles taught orally.