Discussing Mary

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NotWorthy;2700936]
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justasking4 said:
Well, we have the Mass. We also have Paul saying to hold fast to the Traditions, and he doesn’t explicitly list these traditions.

So we agree then that there is no example of the mass being said in scripture? We don’t see an apostle, bishop or priest saying a mass?
Yes, the Catholic Church - “Tom-a-toe, Tom-mah-toe” Where does it say it has to be explicitly in Scripture.
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LilyM said:
All apostolic teaching contained in the NT? Ridiculous. Two-thirds of the Apostles are hardly even mentioned by name - even in the Gospels and Acts let alone everywhere else!

We can be sure that Thaddeus, for example, and Matthias, were every bit as active as Peter and Paul in spreading the Gospel. Yet not a word is written of what they taught.

Let’s put things in perspective here. James survived for ten to fifteen years after Christ before He was martyred by Herod in 44 AD.

So he taught for a period roughly three to five times as long as Christ’s own ministry of three years. Logically, the records of James’ teachings should then be three to five times as long as any of the Gospels if ALL was recorded.

Remember that’s James alone, and he was the first of the Apostles to die. Imagine how long the written records of St John’s teaching should logically be, given that he outlived Christ by sixty-some years.

Care to make the ridiculous assertion again that all Apostolic teaching is contained in the NT?
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Since you disagree with me, then where can we find the teachings of Thaddeus and Matthias? Where are there specific writings ?
 
LilyM;2696636]That’s what the Church exists for!!! IT through the guidance of the Holy Spirit has preserved even the Apostle’s oral teachings! IT is preserved in ALL truth so that the gates of Hell can’t prevail through it teaching error.
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Where can i see the oral teachings of the apostles that are not contained in the scriptures ?
Christ wouldn’t say to the Apostles ‘who hears you hears me’ without giving us a way to hear them, now would He? And we need to hear every blessed word. This is only possible through the Church which preserves it all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
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And note He didn’t say ‘who reads what you write hears me’. The written word alone isn’t quite the thing either.
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Then show some examples of the the oral teachings of the apostles that your church has preserved.
 
justasking4 said:
That’s not what i asked. Are they considered part of the gospel of Christ?
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They are. Divine Revelation is about Jesus Christ. His Gospel. The doctrine of Mary are connected to Jesus Christ since both doctrine said by God’s grace Mary has been preserve from all sin throughout her life, and her assumption, Jesus took her into heaven.

You heard the French Connection right? Well, the Marian doctrine are connected to Jesus Christ because he is the source of all divine revelation.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
They are. Divine Revelation is about Jesus Christ. His Gospel. The doctrine of Mary are connected to Jesus Christ since both doctrine said by God’s grace Mary has been preserve from all sin throughout her life, and her assumption, Jesus took her into heaven.

You heard the French Connection right? Well, the Marian doctrine are connected to Jesus Christ because he is the source of all divine revelation.
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If a catholic rejects some or all the marian doctrines will he be saved?
 
justasking4 said:
If a catholic rejects some or all the marian doctrines will he be saved?
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To reject the marian doctrine is to reject the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

I can sum it up simply. No Mary, no incarnation of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus received his flesh, and blood from the flesh of his mother. With Mary consent, the Word became flesh.
 
Now that is an example of the kind of thinking that gave us the immortal, “Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Please, answer just ‘yes’ or ‘no’ and NOTHING ELSE.”

Whether a Catholic–or anybody else–is ‘saved’ or ‘not saved’ will ultimately rest on whether he or she is in mortal sin–which is grave matter, which the person has committed with full knowledge, and full consent of the will, and remains **unrepentant **for at the time of death.

So your question could as easily be, “If a Catholic rejects any doctrine of the church, or indeed commits any mortal sin even if it appears unrelated to doctrine of the church in the eyes of another, can he or she be saved?”

Yes --IF he or she repents for sin before death, God is merciful.

Please do not try to turn belief into the two Marian dogmas --The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption–onto a par with a Catholic believing even in an ‘approved’ apparition, or whether a Catholic has a Marian devotion-- and then claim that anything you claim is 'Marian" is some sort of ‘litmus test’ which you will use to try to argue (without proof) that “it isn’t in Scripture, it’s man made, it isn’t related to salvation history --and if you THINK IT IS, that PROVES you are not really Christian.”
 
Mannyfit75 said:
To reject the marian doctrine is to reject the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

I can sum it up simply. No Mary, no incarnation of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus received his flesh, and blood from the flesh of his mother. With Mary consent, the Word became flesh.
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What if a catholic rejects that Mary was immaculate conceived, queen of heaven or is to be prayed to for example?
 
Read my post, just.

I KNEW you were going to ‘pick and choose’ and mix examples of DOGMA with private devotion, optional practice, etc.

Manny and all. . .may I respectfully request that until Just reads exactly what constitutes our being ‘saved’ as I expressed it above–i.e., not being in a state of UNREPENTENT MORTAL SIN at death-- we not respond further with a question that he has just proven he himself does not understand???
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Read my post, just.

I KNEW you were going to ‘pick and choose’ and mix examples of DOGMA with private devotion, optional practice, etc.

Manny and all. . .may I respectfully request that until Just reads exactly what constitutes our being ‘saved’ as I expressed it above–i.e., not being in a state of UNREPENTENT MORTAL SIN at death-- we not respond further with a question that he has just proven he himself does not understand???
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Did not the pope in 1950 proclaim that you had to believe in the assumption of Mary or be cut off? If this is the case, does that mean its part of the gospel?
 
justasking4 said:
So we agree then that there is no example of the mass being said in scripture? We don’t see an apostle, bishop or priest saying a mass?
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Ahhh, nice try, but nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus said a Mass the VERY FIRST day of His Resurrection. On the Road to Emmaus, Jesus preaches the Liturgy of the Word as He goes through the Scriptures that deal with Him. Then He goes through the Liturgy of the Eucharist as He reveals Himself to them through the breaking of the bread.

What we don’t have are the general rubrics of the Mass. These are disciplines (not dogma’s) and are subject to change.
If its not stated in scripture then its not apostolic.
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That’s interesting. Where does Scripture tell us that?!?
No doubt the NT church taught a person is to be baptised. Baptism is for the believer i.e. who confesses Christ. We have no examples nor teachings of infants being baptised in the NT.
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Join Phil12123 in Believers Baptism, a thread that has done on ad nauseum for 45+ pages. I don’t feel like hashing that out again.
I’m still confused. How many Traditions are there in the catholic church?
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billions and billions (insert your own Carl Sagan voice here, please!) 🙂

Actually, everything is a Tradition or a tradition to us Catholics. You see, we didn’t draw our Traditions from our Scriptures, we drew our Scriptures from our Traditions. The Church was guided to choose the Scriptures that agreed with her Traditions, not the other way around.
 
justasking4 said:
Where can i see the oral teachings of the apostles that are not contained in the scriptures ?

Then show some examples of the the oral teachings of the apostles that your church has preserved.
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I’d start with the Didache.
 
justasking4 said:
What if a catholic rejects that Mary was immaculate conceived, queen of heaven or is to be prayed to for example?
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They he finds himself at odds with the teachings of the Church, or worst yet, he finds himself in odds with Jesus Christ.

However, praying to Mary is not mandatory by the Church. Many religious and devout Catholics say it is fruitful for spiritual growth. Praying to Mary or the saints have been part of the Christian tradition for over 2,000 yrs.

Even the Eastern Orthodox who are not united with the Holy See, venerate saints as well as Mary.
 
justasking4 said:
If a catholic rejects some or all the marian doctrines will he be saved?
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The Church cannot make this statement. They can tell you that it is sinful for a Catholic to willfully reject the Marian Dogmas. To question them is not sinful. To say, “The Church is wrong, Mary is …” is sinful.

But why would you ask this question? To be Catholic is to accept the authority of the Church. You either accept it or you don’t. We can’t go around choosing what part of the Church teachings are right and what part is wrong.

There’s only one Pope (no matter what our friend Pius in Missouri says. ;)).
 
NotWorthy said:
The Church cannot make this statement. They can tell you that it is sinful for a Catholic to willfully reject the Marian Dogmas. To question them is not sinful. To say, “The Church is wrong, Mary is …” is sinful.

But why would you ask this question? To be Catholic is to accept the authority of the Church. You either accept it or you don’t. We can’t go around choosing what part of the Church teachings are right and what part is wrong.

There’s only one Pope (no matter what our friend Pius in Missouri says. ;)).
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I ask the question for a number of reasons. As you probably know catholics accept certain things the church teaches and not others. Protestants also. My main emphasis is to try to understand the catholic position with the marian doctrines in regards to salvation i.e. being saved. The gospel means something specific and Paul especially is admant about it being correct. He claims for example that it is only by the gospel of Christ a man is saved.
Now what part do the marian doctrines play in this? That’s why i asked if a person can can be saved in the catholic church if they reject the marian doctrines. It certainly seems in light of what the pope said in 1950 that to reject the teachings on Mary condemns a person. Would that be correct?
 
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