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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Seems I addressed this and the other 4 solas in the other thread you started, but you haven’t responded to it yet.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Why not start with the hallmark passage outlining grace:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).
What does this passage mean?
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).
What does this passage mean?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Well, tell us what you think it means to start.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Jonathan_Cid
Guest
Just for some extra (name removed by moderator)ut, it might surprise you to know some Old Catholics would agree that St. Peter was indeed married. We also believe priests should be allowed to marry. We’re Catholic. We’re part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Catholicism is unified and filled with Grace and truth… and because the Church is universal… there is diversity, but never such diversity that the Church disappears. She is not monolithic.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Sure:
Not of yourselves: Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation are not the product of any natural abilities, nor of any personal merit. Not of works, lest any man should boast: These things are not creditable to any thing done by us, and therefore all boasting is excluded. He who boasts must not boast of himself, but of God.
There is no room for any man reveling in his own abilities or power; or as though he had done any thing that might deserve such immense favors from God.
That sums it up in a brief & concise way.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).
Our faith is from God, like Christ told Peter in Matthew 16:17
**Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. **
Through our faith we receive a gift of God which is saving grace.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
Our faith is from God, like Christ told Peter in Matthew 16:17
**Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. **
Through our faith we receive a gift of God which is saving grace.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Absolutely
This is also confirmed at Romans 12:3
God gives grace, God gives faith, our own efforts, desires, endeavor, character predisposition, or will have no role in the economy of salvation.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I’d like to clarify your last statement, if I may. I know we agree, but for some reason this is the point that Catholics and Protestants usually start drawing lines in the sand.Absolutely
This is also confirmed at Romans 12:3
God gives grace, God gives faith, our own efforts, desires, endeavor, character predisposition, or will have no role in the economy of salvation.
I know you’ve heard Catholics argue faith plus works, as I’ve heard Protestants argue fatih alone. Catholics do not believe one can work their way into heaven, just as we believe it takes more than just faith.
Let’s change the word works. I heard a priest call works “our response to God’s grace” and it seems it should clear up any confusion.
God desires a response to his loving gift given to us. That response is to live our Christianity 24/7. If we’re living our Christianity 24/7, we’re being charitable, we’re following God’s commandments. we’re attending Church, we’re studying scriptures. we’re praying. we’re seeking a closer relationship to God and we’re loving our fellow man. These are the works we’re talking about when we say faith plus works.
So, while faith is a gift from God, faith has to be active for grace to work. If we had nothing but faith in Christ and did not respond to God’s grace in the way I’ve described, would it be enough for salvation? I think this is what St. James meant when he wrote:
**Jas 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead. **
So also faith without our response to God’s grace is dead.
Do we still agree?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Practically speaking yes I would agree. I probably wouldn’t term it as our response to grace; but rather what grace is working in us.
The branch is to yield fruit. So we are to abide in obedience. If we obey and endure in a sense we perfect our faith as Abraham did when he stood willing to sacrifice his son (I think this is the message James tells us).
The main difference I see is not so much in the understanding that goodness, charity, obedience, etc. flow from faith and it becomes the nature of the changed man reborn of God (I think there’s more agreement on this point than most believe). It seems to be the idea that the elect can resist grace or we aren’t warranted in having confidence, even certainty in our own election.
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Prodigal_Son1
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You’re saying it differently, but I believe we’re in agreement. Response to God, to me, is cooperating with what grace is working in us. Through the grace working in us our faith becomes stronger.
Faith is a instrument for grace to act. If we work the instrument that God gave us, grace can act. Once we see the actions of grace the better we are with the instrument. If we only believe in the instrument and do not use it, can actions happen?
That’s my point when I say there are people who give God a few hours a week and think they’ve filled their obligation to God. God wants us to give entirely which requires living our faith 24/7. Which is using the instrument to it’s fullest potential?
Like we’ve both said, there’s more agreement on this point than most believe.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Reformed,
You’ve started a couple of threads and for some reason you switch topics within the thread to grace. When it is being discussed, you seemingly avoid the thread? Do you not like the answers? Do you agree with the answers? What’s going on?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
You’ve started a couple of threads and for some reason you switch topics within the thread to grace. When it is being discussed, you seemingly avoid the thread? Do you not like the answers? Do you agree with the answers? What’s going on?
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Reformed
Guest
I’m sorry, I have been on vacation with lot’s of company at my home. Therefore, I don’t have that much time right now. Please let me know your main questions and I will try to answer them during the week. There are two Reformed Protestants who have been answering the threads that I created, and I am very like-minded with them both. If you want to understand what I proclaim to be true, please study the following website. It is great contrast to Roman Catholicism. I call it historic biblical Christianity.
monergism.com/
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.’’ - 1 Timothy 1:15
“I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 2:17
http://sportzfun.com/photos/albums/boxing/fighting_cats.jpg
Let’s not make this a cat fight. Instead, let’s grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ together. BTW… the scriptures point to the living biblical Christ. Here is the key verse in regards to this thread!
John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
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ibkc
Guest
Interesting site; it’s very well-done. I agree that the information presented there is in great contrast to Catholicism. These contrasts led me straight into the Catholic Church, to be honest, once I started investigating Christianity deeply. There is not one single point of the Five Points of Calvinism that are either Biblical or were believed by the early Christians. Much of these beliefs are the worst kinds of the sin of presumption. “Perseverance of the Saints”? A very dangerous theory. The utter rejection of the role of works in God’s plan for our salvation is equally dangerous. He provided the Sacraments for us to partake in, so that we may receive His grace in the way that He intended. “Reform” theology throws all of this away in its desperate attempt to distance itself from the One Truth established by Christ.I’m sorry, I have been on vacation with lot’s of company at my home. Therefore, I don’t have that much time right now. Please let me know your main questions and I will try to answer them during the week. There are two Reformed Protestants who have been answering the threads that I created, and I am very like-minded with them both. If you want to understand what I proclaim to be true, please study the following website. It is great contrast to Roman Catholicism. I call it historic biblical Christianity.
monergism.com/
My brother’s and his family are very devout Presbyterians. They have never really been exposed to Christ’s True Church, the Catholic Church, just as I was never exposed to it. I pray for them every chance I get, and I will not miss a chance to educate them about what Christianity really is.
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wmscott
Guest
This is where your personal interpretation leads you into error. What part of “Full of Grace” (Luke 1:28) do you not understand? Instead of going into a lengthy back and forth read this link
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
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Prodigal_Son1
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Oh, so you teach Christianity by sending people to a website to research for themselves? Can you not explain what you believe yourself?
sola_scriptura and I found common ground in our discussion on faith and grace, which is the subject you brought up without an explanation of what you believe. Are you reading anything being posted in response to your posts?
Who’s making it a cat fight? Let’s grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ together means we consider what each other has posted. So far you have disregarded anything posted by a Catholic and have not responded directly. I have directly responded to your posts, as I’ve repeatedly stated, and you respond by seemingly attempts of entertaining us with pictures that have nothing to do with the subject we are responding too.
Ok, one verse? What does the passage say in context?
**Joh 5:24 Amen, amen, I say unto you that he who heareth my word and believeth him that sent me hath life everlasting: and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25 Amen, amen, I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Wonder not at this: for the hour cometh wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.
Joh 5:29 And they that have done good things shall come forth unto the resurrection of life: but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge. And my judgment is just: because I seek not my own will. but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me: and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 You sent to John: and he gave testimony to the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but I say these things, that you may be saved.
Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.
Joh 5:36 But I have a greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to perfect, the works themselves which I do, give testimony of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself who hath sent me hath given testimony of me: neither have you heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him you believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.
Joh 5:40 And you will not come to me that you may have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not glory from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can you believe, who receive glory one from another: and the glory which is from God alone, you do not seek?
Joh 5:45 Think not that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one that accuseth you, Moses, in whom you trust.
Joh 5:46 For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? **
Seems Jesus was speaking to those who lived by the old law, so the scriptures He was talking about was those in the Old Testament that foretold His coming, yet those who read Moses Law did not come to him. Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. The point He was trying to make was, Amen, amen, I say unto you that he who heareth my word and believeth him that sent me hath life everlasting: and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.
I think you have provided an example of the dangers of private interpretation.
You have to read scriptures in context. You cannot pull one verse out and think it tells the whole story. To read a verse in context, you must read the entire chapter. Then to understand the chapter in context, you must read the entire book.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Here’s what the Catholic Commentary said about that particular verse you posted above.
**39 f. The absence of any other exhortatory imperative and the implied contradiction between seeking life in the Scriptures and rejecting the Giver of life, seem to commend the indicative: ‘You search’ rather than the imperative ‘Search’. In writings that contain the words of life and show the Messias the Jews seek what suits their own ideas and consequently they do not come to Jesus, in order to have life.
**
Here’s what Irenaeus said about that particular verse.
**Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV
ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P8160_2258386
Wherefore also John does appropriately relate that the Lord said to the Jews: “Ye search the Scriptures, in which ye think ye have eternal life; these are they which testify of me. And ye are not willing to come unto Me, that ye may have life.”[119]
**
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Prodigal Son 1:
I understand your position regarding the “dangers” as you call it of private interpretation, however, I have to disagree with this position.
First, for any student of the Bible private interpretation is the natural result of reading the text. However, we will grow in grace, our understanding of things will mature, etc.
Certainly it is valuable reading the writings of great theologians, for me Calvin was among if not the greatest of them. However, nothing replaces Bible study and coming to an understanding of the truth in a natural way.
I’ve read the Catholics greats (Augustine & Aquinas being my two favorites), Wesley, Jacob Arminius, Calvin, Sproul, etc. However, I still learn new things every day.
For example, just today I heard a sermon on Sodom and Lot and immediately related it to a discussion I had on this board regarding purgatory and 1 Cor. 3:15. I also defended a challenge, which used John 15:1-6 to refute the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. It was a good challenge to the doctrine, but ultimately it strengthened my belief in it. It came to mind that Moses and even Peter had doubts that God would carry through and paid for those doubts. Moses never entered the promised land, Peter fell in the water he was walking on.
If we don’t try to understand these things with our own mind it just seems like we will never really understand them at all – at least with any depth. I’m not sure if this would necessarily go against RCC teaching but it might? At any rate this methodology just makes more sense to me.
I understand your position regarding the “dangers” as you call it of private interpretation, however, I have to disagree with this position.
First, for any student of the Bible private interpretation is the natural result of reading the text. However, we will grow in grace, our understanding of things will mature, etc.
Certainly it is valuable reading the writings of great theologians, for me Calvin was among if not the greatest of them. However, nothing replaces Bible study and coming to an understanding of the truth in a natural way.
I’ve read the Catholics greats (Augustine & Aquinas being my two favorites), Wesley, Jacob Arminius, Calvin, Sproul, etc. However, I still learn new things every day.
For example, just today I heard a sermon on Sodom and Lot and immediately related it to a discussion I had on this board regarding purgatory and 1 Cor. 3:15. I also defended a challenge, which used John 15:1-6 to refute the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. It was a good challenge to the doctrine, but ultimately it strengthened my belief in it. It came to mind that Moses and even Peter had doubts that God would carry through and paid for those doubts. Moses never entered the promised land, Peter fell in the water he was walking on.
If we don’t try to understand these things with our own mind it just seems like we will never really understand them at all – at least with any depth. I’m not sure if this would necessarily go against RCC teaching but it might? At any rate this methodology just makes more sense to me.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Again, we find common ground on some of what you said sola_scriptura. We do have an obligation to study scriptures, as well as the writings of other Christians including early Church fathers, and I’m sure as we grow spiritually and continue our study of scriptures, our understanding of scriptures becomes greater.
I believe this validates the Catholic dependence on Church interpretations. The Apostles of the Church wrote the scriptures, the early Church fathers canonized the scriptures and ever since Church fathers have studied scriptures against Church teachings. Surely the authors understood the interpretation. The early Church fathers studied scriptures and many other writings, as well as the oral tradition teaching the good news, to define the canon. Since the canonization the Church has continued studying and teaching scriptures. No one can, or should, discount the value of 2000 years of studying scriptures.
When a Catholic reads scriptures and questions the interpretation, there is great comfort in turning to the Holy Spirit protected Church for an interpretation. We feel the Holy Spirit confirms that interpretation as our understanding scriptures grows.
With what I’ve seen of Reformed’s posts, he throws one or two verses out and often seems to be missing the context of what is being said. When someone provides the passage or chapter and explains the context, he doesn’t respond but continues saying the same things and provides links to massive amounts of information for one to discern what he is trying to get across. This appears to be he doesn’t know what the information actually states and throws it out there because it comes from a Protestant source. Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to quote the part he using to support his view and provide a link to that particular page for others to then research?
I have tried to let others know that I am willing to share the Catholic faith and do comparisons of our commonalities and differences. I am, however, against people who come here solely to either “bash” Catholicism or for the purposes of trying to convert Catholics from the Church.
Even though I do not agree with all of Calvin’s interpretations, I will admit he was a theologian. The Catholic Church has had a succession of theologians passing along the interpretations for 2000 years. On both sides of Catholicism and Protestantism, there have been some great theologians. Being theology is the study of God, aren’t we all theologians to some degree?
All of us being theologians doesn’t put us all on the same level. Some are very learned and have an edge over the common person, just as those who have great amounts of time to study over the common person.
With the above understanding, the danger lies with teaching others with those private interpretations. Now, not only has the person who privately interpreted the scriptures endangered themself, they have endangered others who might believe their interpretation. There are people who feel inadequate at interpretation and readily accept those who speak with confidence.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
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Reformed
Guest
Thanks for the reply. Please share what standard that you used to determine truth.
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Reformed
Guest
I prefer the Scriptures over Catholic commentaries. Check out the Scriptures and how Mary rejoices in God her Savior. Mary, like all regenerate Christians rejoices in God our Savior because we are all sinners saved by grace. The Catholic interpertation is just a personal interpertation too.
Luke 1
Mary’s Song of Praise: The Magnificat
46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
56 And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home.
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