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HailMary
Guest
Another term for this is that the accidents of the host remain the same (taste, touch, smell, etc).
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Pug
Guest
A banquet is a symbol for the end happiness for us with Jesus in heaven. So things of abundance for me signal thoughts about the Kingdom being here on earth or about the consummation in heaven. Abundant wine in the Old Testament also was included in the restoration of Israel stuff in the prophets. Here is Joel 3:18
So, perhaps the abundant wine (over 100 or 150 gallons of it) held meaning for the disciples beyond that he could work miracles. Also, the abundance theme well connects the miracle at Cana with the miracle of the feeding of the 5000.
It reminds me of in the beginning of John where it says, “From his fullness we have received, grace upon grace” (not NAB, but from memory).
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Pug
Guest
I am always struck by the very begining of John and how it sounds like the creation account in Genesis. Also, John is the place where we hear about being born again. So, I then proceed to notice that both Genesis and John have this strange progression of days in it. Furthermore, the third day is when Jesus rose from the dead. So is the “third day” somehow a signal of the new creation in John chapter 2?
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water
Guest
I was wondering why the servers used the jars for Jewish ceremonial washings? What is its significant?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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Pug
Guest
Perhaps to signal how Jesus is changing things. Jesus came to fulfill the Law (the Jewish Old Testament Law). In place of the old, there is now the new. Perhaps you can see it as a complete replacement, or maybe a transformation, depending on what you see there… Furthermore, you have the comment, “you have kept the best wine until now”, spoken with two meanings, as seems to happen in John. This new way with Jesus, this is better than the old way.
The Law was indeed given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (from John chapter 1).
Does anyone besides me have an urge to connect wine with the Spirit somehow? Maybe it is because of Acts and how they are accused of being drunk on new wine when it is really because it is Pentecost.
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Fidelis
Guest
That’s a good question! The obvious reason is that they used these because they were the biggest, cleanest containers handy in which to place the water that Jesus would change into wine. However, you are right to intuit that there is a symbolic meaning behind that choice.
The jars represent the ceremonies and prescriptions of the Old Jewish Law. As good as it was (it was, after all, established by God), with the coming of the Messiah, the old Law would be fulfiled, eclipsed and surpassed when the Messiah came and establish his Kingdom. As Pug noted, the age of the Messiah was prophesied to be one of over-flowing abundance. Just as wine is superior to water, the Messianic age is superior to the Old Covenant, which was only a preparation and a shadow.
Before we leave this question, any more thoughts on what Jesus meant by his “hour”? Here are some other mentions of Jesus’ hour:
Joh 8:20
These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.
Joh 12:23
And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified.
Joh 12:27
"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Joh 13:1
Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.
Joh 17:1
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
Mt 26:45
Then he came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mr 14:35
And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Read the prologue, and you’ll see numerous Genesis themes and symbols.
In the beginning…, light, darkness, life, etc.
Also, there was something in the Old Testament that described a certain purification rite that was to occur on the 3rd **and **the 7th day. But for the life of me, I can’t find it. This is what John seems to be evoking when he brings this up.
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water
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Thank you Fidelis and Pug for the explanation. It is very helpful.
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Pug
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It is by the “red heifer” ceremony. You are looking for corpse contamination and the remedy for it. It was a seven day process with sprinkling on day 3 and on day seven, and the sprinkling included ashes from the burned up cow. It happened when a person died in a tent and stuff like that.
Oh, the cow is in numbers 19. So this is a reference to the mysterious red cow…interesting…don’t know what it means, though…
Ah, the cow was killed outside the camp, and in Hebrews, Jesus was killed outside the camp/gates (13:12)…some progress…
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MariaG
Guest
Interesting. I never had a clear feeling of what “hour” meant. I always felt it meant more than my Protestant explanations which said it referred to the start of Christ’s public ministry.
But with those verses above, it seems to refer specifically to Christ’s sacrifice.
This makes the what kind of vessel even more interesting. My thoughts are still somewhat nebulous here and I am having a hard time pinning down exactly what is floating in my brain.
But I also have that song, “Mary did you know” running through my brain right now. I think the answer to that is, Yes, Mary did know. That song always makes me cry, because I can’t imagine having to raise my child KNOWING their fate. And it appears to me, from these passages, Mary may have in fact “known” what would happen to her baby boy.
Maybe not. Maybe she just trusted Him so completely that she just turned over problems to Him without “knowing”?
Not alot of scholarship in this post, just “feelings” running around. I hope someone can pin this down better for me
But I think that it is apparent that “hour” does not refer to the start of His public ministry as has always been previously explained to me, but refers more specifically to His crucifixion.
God Bless,
Maria
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Fidelis
Guest
Great insights, Maria!Interesting. I never had a clear feeling of what “hour” meant. I always felt it meant more than my Protestant explanations which said it referred to the start of Christ’s public ministry.
But with those verses above, it seems to refer specifically to Christ’s sacrifice.
This makes the what kind of vessel even more interesting. My thoughts are still somewhat nebulous here and I am having a hard time pinning down exactly what is floating in my brain.
But I also have that song, “Mary did you know” running through my brain right now. I think the answer to that is, Yes, Mary did know. That song always makes me cry, because I can’t imagine having to raise my child KNOWING their fate. And it appears to me, from these passages, Mary may have in fact “known” what would happen to her baby boy.
Maybe not. Maybe she just trusted Him so completely that she just turned over problems to Him without “knowing”?
Not alot of scholarship in this post, just “feelings” running around. I hope someone can pin this down better for me
But I think that it is apparent that “hour” does not refer to the start of His public ministry as has always been previously explained to me, but refers more specifically to His crucifixion.
God Bless,
Maria
It recalls to mind how the saints have always said that everything in the life of Christ, even the events surrounding his birth, foreshadowed the Cross.BTW, don’t ever be embarassed about exploring the deeper meaning of Scripture, no matter how tentatively. Though scholarship and docrine are vitally important for keeping us on track, it’s where the Spirit touches our hearts that makes the real change in us.
Catholic apologist and Bible teacher Steve Ray says studying the Bible is like being on a playground. Without the guidance of the Church, we can wander off where are the snakes, scorpions, pitfalls, and other hidden dangers are, never really being safe. But studying the Bible with the Church is like having a fence around that playground. Though it seems more restrictive, we are actually freer to move around the playground of Scripture knowing we are safe and secure!
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Fidelis
Guest
On a side note, contemplative has started a thread about the preacher to the papal household, Fr. Cantalamesa, remarks on the verse we are discussing:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1812381#post1812381
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1812381#post1812381
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TOP
Guest
I think Mary did know and “kept all in her heart”. Tim
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Franciscan
Guest
Jesus The New Moses…
Moses-Changed water to blood.(Plague at Nile)
Jesus - changed water to wine(Cana) wine to blood. (At Last Supper)
Moses-Changed water to blood.(Plague at Nile)
Jesus - changed water to wine(Cana) wine to blood. (At Last Supper)
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Fidelis
Guest
While we’re still thinking about the above, let’s address our next question from the study:
**Genesis 3:15 **
usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm
**John 19:26-27 **
usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john19.htm
Revelation 12:1-6, 13-14
usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation12.htm
Here are some links to the referenced verses:
**Genesis 3:15 **
usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm
**John 19:26-27 **
usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john19.htm
Revelation 12:1-6, 13-14
usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation12.htm
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MariaG
Guest
This link does not seem to be working.
And, thanks for the kind words
I appreciate them especially since I frequently, initially, operate on the emotional level, and then add the study
It is in fact, one of the reasons I am so truly thankful for the surety of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I don’t have to wade through the several possible and conflicting theologies and rely on my “feelings” to tell me I am following leading of the Holy Spirit. I like that analogy of the playground. It fits me to a tee:thumbsup:Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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Fidelis
Guest
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nobody
Guest
Can you quote a source for this explanation? When I read the beginning of the gospel,
It sure seems like they are quests at the wedding.
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HailMary
Guest
Thats an interpretation that I was taught at bible study. Not sure what the source it is but it has aided my appreciated and deepened my understand of the love Jesus and Mary shared
We have four senses of scripture in the Catholic teaching:
from( catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405bt.asp )
On the literal sense, they were guests at the wedding. But on an allegorical sense, we can say the wedding is Jesus’ and Mary’s. I think that the meaning I tried to convey follows “sound interpretation” and is based on the literal, not to mention fruitful.
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