Discussion on the Koran or Quran

[qui_est_ce]

Also, one of the posters claimed the Bible repeats verses. Maybe I’ve missed them, but I haven’t seen any like the ones in the koran.

Pam,
The Psalms:
I can’t find them right now, but something like “Blessed the man who fears the Lord”

And since the koran can only be understood in Arabic, well then it isn’t a book for all man kind since not everyone speaks and understands Arabic.

Since their was no original koran at mohamads time and there were many different koran books written, how can muslims claim that it is identical to this day as it was from the beginning…?? Which koran tablet is in heaven with allah?

This is my problem as well. One should be able to glean understanding even in translations. It’s silly to say that only one language is proper. Language evolves. Words become archaic and change meaning. Look what has happened to Latin. We don’t need to know Hebrew, Greek, Aramic, or Latin to understand the message of the Bible.

 

[Eleve]

It’s probably to divert our attention from the fact that the Qur’an specifically denies Christ died on the Cross (see Qur’an 4:157).

That’s silly. Why would the Qur’an be designed to hide away its doctrines? It’s not like Muslims have any problem confessing that Jesus did not die on the cross.

 

[hamba2han]

The Qur’an is the Lord’s Final Revelation to ALL of humankind, not just to Arabs or even to Muslims for that matter.

Despite the loss of accuracy in translating the Qur’an, it would still be far, far, FAR better to read a translation of the Qur’an and glean say 70, 80 or 90% of it’s true meaning than for the creations to not read the Qur’an at all and thereby obtain 0% knowledge and understanding of their Creator’s Message for them.

Put it this way, if you receive a letter written in a foreign language concerning the safety and well-being of someone you love, would you not want to have that letter translated?

 

[qui_est_ce]

The Qur’an is the Lord’s Final Revelation to ALL of humankind, not just to Arabs or even to Muslims for that matter.

Despite the loss of accuracy in translating the Qur’an, it would still be far, far, FAR better to read a translation of the Qur’an and glean say 70, 80 or 90% of it’s true meaning than for the creations to not read the Qur’an at all and thereby obtain 0% knowledge and understanding of their Creator’s Message for them.

Put it this way, if you receive a letter written in a foreign language concerning the safety and well-being of someone you love, would you not want to have that letter translated?

I completely disaagree with this. The Bible is the Lord’s Final Revelation. If you go back in history you will see this, even from secular sources. The Bible was written by many men over a period of 2,000 years. And it still stands today, 2,000 years since the death of Christ.

The Koran holds no validity to me. The Koran came after the Bible. ONE MAN, Muhammed, decided he was a prophet. He performed no signs (miracles) to prove he was God’s prophet. He decided one day that he had a vision and everybody should agree with him.

Unfortunately, the book has a lot of errors and contradictions in it. It contradicts the Bible, the Word of God. God cannot contradict himself. Also the Koran has untruths in it (like thinking Mary was one of the Trinity). It’s hard to believe God could misunderstand himself.

To get 100% of knowledge of God, one should read the Bible. Jesus did.

 

[hamba2han]

… The Bible is the Lord’s Final Revelation.

Muslims can just as easily ask → How can the Bible be the Lord’s Final Revelation when the Qur’an was revealed some 600 years after the time of Jesus (pbuh)?

Once we start using circular logic such as stating that the Qur’an cannot be true because it contradicts the Bible or vice versa, then there would really be no end to such an argument.

 

[jakasaki]

Muslims can just as easily ask → How can the Bible be the Lord’s Final Revelation when the Qur’an was revealed some 600 years after the time of Jesus (pbuh)?

Once we start using circular logic such as stating that the Qur’an cannot be true because it contradicts the Bible or vice versa, then there would really be no end to such an argument.

The koran does contradict the Bible and Torah, therefore since the koran contradicts both Holy Books, the koran then is false.

The koran was created by one man and one man alone.

God allah never once spoke to mohamad to “reveal” the koran.

The koran was written by many authors from Abu Bakr to Ali to whoemever many others and then finally Uthman and all previous koran books were destroyed.

The first “so called” revelation to mohamad is NOT even in the beginning of the book - it’s almost to the back of it.

The koran is not written in “revelation” order but all jumbled up and all over the place.

The Biblical God does not send “angels” down to man to write new scriptures.

It is written in the Bible:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that person be condemned!

The Biblical God did not make a mistake for 2000 years and then all of the sudden in the 7th century God decided He fooled all of the people and create islam.

 

[qui_est_ce]

**The koran does contradict the Bible and Torah, therefore since the koran contradicts both Holy Books, the koran then is false. **

The koran is not written in “revelation” order but all jumbled up and all over the place.

**The Biblical God does not send “angels” down to man to write new scriptures. **

It is written in the Bible:

The Biblical God did not make a mistake for 2000 years and then all of the sudden in the 7th century God decided He fooled all of the people and create islam.

These are the points I’d like Islamists to address.

 

[Hadi]

The koran does contradict the Bible and Torah, therefore since the koran contradicts both Holy Books, the koran then is false.

The koran was created by one man and one man alone.

God allah never once spoke to mohamad to “reveal” the koran.

The koran was written by many authors from Abu Bakr to Ali to whoemever many others and then finally Uthman and all previous koran books were destroyed.

The first “so called” revelation to mohamad is NOT even in the beginning of the book - it’s almost to the back of it.

The koran is not written in “revelation” order but all jumbled up and all over the place.

The Biblical God does not send “angels” down to man to write new scriptures.

It is written in the Bible:

The Biblical God did not make a mistake for 2000 years and then all of the sudden in the 7th century God decided He fooled all of the people and create islam.

please show me theological contradictions between the Quran and the Torah

 

[qui_est_ce]

please show me theological contradictions between the Quran and the Torah

Lot was not a prophet. The people of the OT were Jews, not Muslims. The OT prefigures Christ, the Koran does not.

 

[jakasaki]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadi
please show me theological contradictions between the Quran and the Torah

Lot was not a prophet. The people of the OT were Jews, not Muslims. The OT prefigures Christ, the Koran does not.

Hadi, if you want to discuss the koran vs the OT & NT, then start a new thread.

Meanwhile, besides what Qui Est Ce posted, I’ll add"

Adam was not a prophet,

Adam was not 90 feet tall,

Noahs write up in the koran is different from the OT,

Moses write up in the koran is different from the OT,

Abrahams write up in the koran is different from the OT.

 

[dolphinlove]

Lot was not a prophet. The people of the OT were Jews, not Muslims. The OT prefigures Christ, the Koran does not.

and that is only to start with, ill get back here soon with more

 

[Hadi]

Sorry but no one has provided theological differences between the Torah (not the rest of OT) and the Quran

again,I’m asking about the Torah not the OT

 

[jakasaki]

Sorry but no one has provided theological differences between the Torah (not the rest of OT) and the Quran

again,I’m asking about the Torah not the OT

Being a non-Jew my self, I always refer to the Torah as the OT.

Perhaps my terminolgy is wrong, but I still stand with my statement and I’ll change it from the word “Torah” to the OT

The OT Biblical accounts as stated in the Bible are distorted in the koran.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Lot was not a prophet. The people of the OT were Jews, not Muslims. The OT prefigures Christ, the Koran does not.

Sorry but no one has provided theological differences between the Torah (not the rest of OT) and the Quran

again,I’m asking about the Torah not the OT

The Torah prefigures Christ, the Koran does not. This is the theological difference. Christ quoted the Torah (the first five books of the OT, also known as the Law), and not the Koran.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Hadi, if you want to discuss the koran vs the OT & NT, then start a new thread.

Well, since Islamists believe the Koran is compatible with the OT, I think it’s a legitimate discussion.

 

[jakasaki]

Well, since Islamists believe the Koran is compatible with the OT, I think it’s a legitimate discussion.

Okey-dokey…

Let’s continue then, shall we…!!!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Okey-dokey…

Let’s continue then, shall we…!!!

What does the Koran teach about Ishmael and Esau?

 

[jakasaki]

What does the Koran teach about Ishmael and Esau?

Christine, are you asking me, or our muslim members?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The Torah prefigures Christ, the Koran does not. This is the theological difference. Christ quoted the Torah (the first five books of the OT, also known as the Law), and not the Koran.

Indeed - one finds throughout the New Testament direct references to the Old Testament passages, both in the Law and the Prophets, not only spoken by Christ but by the apostles as well. The New Testament is confirmed by the Old Testament. By contrast, the Koran rarely makes direct reference to the Old Testament or New Testament except through vague names and ideas.

Mohammad taught at one point that Jews and Christians should look to their books to verify who he was, but then later on (obviously when he found out what those books really said) claimed they corrupted their scripture and hid the truth. Hence Muslim apologetics today are left with a circular logic where anything that supports their cause is used as God’s word yet anything that contradicts the Koran is untrustworthy - in other words, I agree with it because it fits my personal theology. One must ask why, after thousands of years, did God change from having His revelation be confirmed by the previous revelation to sending down a book which all books thousands of years before have to coincide with?

In regards to the Torah and koran, one big argument that I’ve heard from both the Koran and Muslims is the overemphasis on Ishmael, the ancestor of the Arabs whom Muslims believe to be part of the covenant with God. What they forget, however, was that Ishmael’s birth was a human plan (Sarah had Abraham sleep with a slave) whereas God planned Isaac through the miracle of Sarah giving birth.

But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. “As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” [Genesis 17:19-21; emphasis mine]

God looked after Ishmael out of mercy - it ended there. The covenant and the promise of mankind’s salvation came through Isaac and eventually Jesus Christ.

 

[jakasaki]

Indeed - one finds throughout the New Testament direct references to the Old Testament passages, both in the Law and the Prophets, not only spoken by Christ but by the apostles as well. The New Testament is confirmed by the Old Testament. By contrast, the Koran rarely makes direct reference to the Old Testament or New Testament except through vague names and ideas.

Mohammad taught at one point that Jews and Christians should look to their books to verify who he was, but then later on (obviously when he found out what those books really said) claimed they corrupted their scripture and hid the truth. Hence Muslim apologetics today are left with a circular logic where anything that supports their cause is used as God’s word yet anything that contradicts the Koran is untrustworthy - in other words, I agree with it because it fits my personal theology. One must ask why, after thousands of years, did God change from having His revelation be confirmed by the previous revelation to sending down a book which all books thousands of years before have to coincide with?

In regards to the Torah and koran, one big argument that I’ve heard from both the Koran and Muslims is the overemphasis on Ishmael, the ancestor of the Arabs whom Muslims believe to be part of the covenant with God. What they forget, however, was that Ishmael’s birth was a human plan (Sarah had Abraham sleep with a slave)

But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. “As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” [Genesis 17:19-21; emphasis mine]

God looked after Ishmael out of mercy - it ended there. The covenant and the promise of mankind’s salvation came through Isaac and eventually Jesus Christ.

Well stated. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’ve always admired your posts.

Best regards,
Pam