Discussion on the Qu'ran and Hadith

[Reuben_J]

The Meccan verses of Quran, I have no problem with. Muhammad may claim to come from God, and I won’t say anything although I disagree.

But the violent Medina verses lead me to believe (a) Muhammad was tricked by the devil, so he wan unable to differentiate good and evil, or (b) Uthsman in the 700AD rewrote/corrupted the unknown real verses since it was burnt. He did that, because the Medina verses give him the full un-overthrown-able leadership.

Well, how can we know for sure since the original is burnt already. Authenticity can only be given by arguments or claims. No facts, nor even logic can be presented.

That is a reasonable conclusion. I have second thought about the revelations myself since there is no evidence that Mohammad discerned whether they were from Allah or not. The angel being the principal messenger is a problem too though not all revelations especially in the later years were given through the angel Gabriel. It makes one wonder why the definition of angel is so different from the earlier understanding in the Bible if the Quran is supposed to confirm it.

I suppose scientifically all argument and evidence for the original Quran is unviable since Uthman destroyed the hard copies. It does not matter whether the destroyed versions were only dialect variations. But in a scrupulous examination on whether the Quran is original or not, I agree with you, you can’t back it anymore with solid evidence simply because the culprit destroyed it. We just have to take the word of Uthman for the present version of the Quran. What a pity – he destroyed the evidence for the uncreated word of Allah forever.

And may I add - we can never know for sure whether all the revelations were compiled in the Quran. Quranic verses were written on many different media. A goat ate one such manuscript and some others were lost. Not counting those verses that Uthman might omit.

 

[paarsurrey]

I would hope that thread headings such as ‘the Nonsense of Islam’ are never used again. Just as we would be offended by a similar thread title regarding Christians as a Catholic Christian I found it offensive to have such a title applied to someone else’s beliefs. Of course it would offend!

We ought always to treat others as we wish to be treated and when we don’t, we’re ignoring Jesus’ teaching to ‘love others as ourselves.’ I don’t think it was intended to be un-Christian but that it was a result of the OP’s enthusiasm…nevertheless, could moderators please seek agreement with the poster to change thread titles like this one?

Hi

Thanks Trishie for expressing such good words. Here we have a friendly discussion and the Headings should not injure the feelings of others. We are concerned with reasons and arguments and sentiments of love.

God bless you!

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

You make a good point and now I understand what the fuss is about the thread offending Islam. I apologize to Muslims for the title and I think the title should definitely be changed since it offends. Maybe to “Discussion on the Qu’ran and Hadith”?

Hi

Thanks Eucharisted. This was due for so many days. For changing the title of the thread; may be the Managers of the forum may help. Kindly approach them, if you, may.

You are a friend.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

Thanks Eucharisted. This was due for so many days. For changing the title of the thread; may be the Managers of the forum may help. Kindly approach them, if you, may.

You are a friend.

Thanks

I like to seek your attention regarding the title of this thread which you started. Adding sense to Christianity. Not that I am bothered too much by it but I think this is insulting for someone of another religion to tell us that sense needs to be added to Christianity. As if Christianity has no sense. And that is nonsense, right?

You might believe it that way but must you say it so rudely? Have you ever thought about it before you start a thread with such title and that it can injure other feeling too?

Well, like I say, I don’t mind that at all. Used to them I guess. But let apply the same standard to everything here.

 

[Reuben_J]

And we object to your continued assertion that Catholicism is Paulism.

Well, this is getting better if we all apply the same standard ourselves. Nothing to complain and nothing to get angry at.

 

[R_not]

And we object to your continued assertion that Catholicism is Paulism.

Well, this is getting better if we all apply the same standard ourselves. Nothing to complain and nothing to get angry at.

They are taking Catholicism, or Christianity as a whole, from their koran.

They cannot prove that the Bible was corrupted NOT using the koran and hadiths because that is from an illiterate pagan, but they will continue to draw their conclusions from it.

We read their texts to draw conclusions about their ‘religion’ and ‘prophet’, but they do not do the same the majority of the time.

 

[R_not]

I got this email from the website of Walid Shoebat Foundation about the Mumbai massacre.

**Please pray for the families of Gavriel and Rifka Holtzberg and all the victims of the Mumbai terror massacre. For those who did not read the reports, the Jewish victims were tortured beyond belief before being murdered. The doctors said the torture was so bad they could not even describe. We must awaken the world to deal with this evil which so far we will not face with the correct action.

Jewish people must understand the danger they are once again facing and only 63 years after the end of the last Holocaust. They must understand the danger is based on a Nazi style ideology with a religious connotation. It is not poverty, it is not a victim grievance but a evil ideology that has the primary goal to KILL ALL JEWS and subjugate everyone else. The concept of “killing all jews on Judgement Day” is repeated as a bed time prayer/story to most Muslim kids. Think about this, please!! We are in troubling times, financially and for our physical and spiritual well being. We must face reality with courage and tenacity. We must remember our great leaders of world war two and how they led our free nations. I cannot say we can follow the example of our existing bunch of leaders who are making things worse not better.**

Walid will speak this Saturday night in Greenville NC and also on Sunday morning and Sunday evening in Raleigh NC. If anyone wishes to attend, that lives in these areas please email us at walid@shoebat.com and we will give you the exact details.

I wish I were there again (I was stationed there in North Carolina in the USMC). When he spoke here in the Bay ARea it was so full we were turned away.

 

[R_not]

I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read this and I actually rooted for the Russians on this one!! They have the guts where our western counries are behaving like cowards - when the muslims requested a mosque be built in Russia, they said 'Yes, but only if they can build a Church in Saudi Arabia.’.

:yyeess:

Here is the article for all the muslims who don’t like to go to websites such as this:

**This delightful story just came in thanks to getreligion.org: The Saudis have recently asked permission to build a mosque in Moscow, a city where there are only four mosques and 2 million Muslims. The Russians, however, are saying they want, in return, an Orthodox church in Saudi Arabia.

As we all know, the Saudis have a habit of constructing mosques in dozens of world capitals while forbidding houses of worship for any religion whatsoever outside its Wahabist brand of Islam. They’ve gotten some bad PR locally for some of the hate language in textbooks at the Saudi Academy in northern Virginia. Not only are hapless Christians terrorized and jailed for daring to hold private prayer services in Saudi Arabia, but God help them should they try to convert someone to their religion. And that’s for a fellow People of the Book: One can only guess at what the treatment of Buddhists and Hindus must be like.

Wouldn’t it be so ironic if the Russians were the first Christian body to win acceptance of the right to build a church in, say, Riyadh? (Some of the Russians are calling for a church in Mecca, but the chances of any other religion getting a foothold within walking distance of the world center of Islam is less than zero.) Of course we all know the Saudis aren’t about ready to let Bibles or other religious literature, let alone a church, anywhere near their homeland, but all the same, it’s amusing to see the Russians give the Saudis a taste of their own medicine.

-Julia Duin, religion editor**

This forbidding churches to be built, or even fixed up, etc are in ANY and ALL countries where sharia laws exist. And that is what they want in our Western countries - sharia laws. gag

 

[dzheremi]

I am not surprised at the Russian response, though it does make me very, very happy. I think we have a lot to learn from the Orthodox believers when it comes to this. Apparently the Ethiopian Orthodox (one of the Oriental Orthodox churches) replied with the same when asked by local Muslim leaders if they would permit the construction of a mosque in Axum, a stronghold of Orthodox Christianity in Ethiopia that is particularly notable as the home of the Ark of the Covenant, according to Ethiopian Orthodox belief. In a country with roughly 50% Muslim population and bordered by Sharia-ruled Sudan on one side and the humanitarian disaster that is Somalia on the other, that takes some real strength of conviction.

Vot molodets to the Russians, and mälkam sra to the Ethiopians! (Good work!)

 

[swariffin]

There is much double standard in christianity.

Easy to say from the outside!!

Everything good for Jesus.

Only God is only good, you know! And if Jesus is a divine person, which He claimed and the Church has continually claimed, it would follow, wouldn’t it?.. I know you don’t believe it, though. It doesn’t follow from your not believing it that it’s necessarily untrue.

Love for Jesus. Everything bad for muhammad. hatred for muhammad.

Off course Jesus is sinless. He is the Kalimathullah, mentioned in your Quran and Hadiths. No one else including Muhammad bear the title Kalimathullah. How come the word of God be sinful??? It is simple logic that you don’t want to understand.

If Jesus committed any sin, why don’t you show that, and discuss it here. It is funny saying Jesus is sinful, but unable to show the sin, let alone to proof that.

 

[swariffin]

Hi friend sister swariffin!

Which verse irritates you the most;please.

Thanks

Any verse in Quran showing hatred toward other people. Perhaps I misunderstood the real meaning of that verse. In this case, I am open for your explanation, brother. I am willing to listen from both parties, not from the non-muslims interpretation only. Just pick one you consider the best.

 

[swariffin]

Swariffin, did you read the bible OT? Did you notice any difference in the verses pertaining to the period that Moses a.s. was inside Egypt and the verses that pertain to the period when Jews came out of Egypt.???

If you obseved any difference then please tell us what was all that. Thanks.

The difference I read is Abraham sacrificed Isaac in the OT, as opposed to Abraham sacrificed Ismael in Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

swariffin; 4505178:

Any verse in Quran showing hatred toward other people. Perhaps I misunderstood the real meaning of that verse. In this case, I am open for your explanation, brother. I am willing to listen from both parties, not from the non-muslims interpretation only. Just pick one you consider the best.

Hi

There is in fact not a single hate verse in Quran. So how could I choose the most hateful verse in Quran? Those who provide here lists of verses which they consider are hateful, now is the time for them to choose the most hateful one from them. They are just copy/pasting from some internet websites, which is an easy job. The Catholics, the true ones, are charitable people; they should not be in that queue. That is a cheap thing, in my opinion. They should present something from their own experience and also after seeing the context of the verse.

It is not a difficult thing, not at all; we are not in a hurry. Just pick your copy of Quran or down load it from website and start reading it from cover to cover; where you see something objectionable make a note of it, if it is solved within the context just delete it. Then we are ready for comparison of our notes truly.

It is the same method I did for the OTBible from cover to cover and for the NTBible from cover to cover. Similarly I read the Basic books of the Zoroastrians. Similarly I studied the Gita of Hindus. I am a student of God’s Revelation anywhere in the World, as I enjoy it. How our Merciful God took care of our ancestors in the ancient times and present times, in the East and West and North and South; all human beings, we feel delighted.

One has studied the Bible and spent one’s time with it. So one knows how the verses are to be studied unbiased yet with love and with the context. It is a good start, now start studying Quran. When you finish a chapter; you may discuss its contents.

Why should one wait others to debate; while doing nothing? It is better to start reading and then discussing the points not understood with a group, like here in this forum. Everybody start reading and discussing here.

I think you understand my view point.

Thanks

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

… I am willing to listen from both parties, …

woow… that’s really very nice of you

In other forum , I posted some verses from OT & Quran & asked if participants can identify which verse is from which holy book . I am doing it again for you; let me know if u can understand .

Similarities between Muslims & Jewish Holy Books

The following verses are describing how Jews were blessed , also punished by God Almighty in the past . If not mentioned , it’s hard to understand which verse is from which Holy Book.

{ Test ur knowledge … can u identify the verses ??? Give me ur honest answer }

Still , media & non-Muslims complaint that Quran is hard on Jews. I wonder , why this allegation/misconception ?

Quran described what happened in the past …if it’s harshness , why nobody says Jewish holy Book is also hard on them ? If it’s not harshness , then next time , when u see anyone complaining against Quran about this matter , pl. correct him/her.

Hope , my Jewish sisters & brothers know that Muslims do respect Jews as ’ people of the Holy Book ’ & our holy Quran tells us how children of Israel were blessed by God Almighty. So, if u are not angry with ur holy Book , don’t misunderstand Quran, too.

1. And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers
2. Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God
3. . But after they had rest, they did evil again before Thee;
4. Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others.
5. But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments,
6. Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples
7. they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee,
8. Yea, forty years didst Thou sustain them in the wilderness, and they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
9. We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophethood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above the nations

convertstoislam.org

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm

 

[swariffin]

Hi

There is in fact not a single hate verse in Quran. So how could I choose the most hateful verse in Quran? Those who provide here lists of verses which they consider are hateful, now is the time for them to choose the most hateful one from them. They are just copy/pasting from some internet websites, which is an easy job. The Catholics, the true ones, are charitable people; they should not be in that queue. That is a cheap thing, in my opinion. They should present something from their own experience and also after seeing the context of the verse.

It is not a difficult thing, not at all; we are not in a hurry. Just pick your copy of Quran or down load it from website and start reading it from cover to cover; where you see something objectionable make a note of it, if it is solved within the context just delete it. Then we are ready for comparison of our notes truly.

It is the same method I did for the OTBible from cover to cover and for the NTBible from cover to cover. Similarly I read the Basic books of the Zoroastrians. Similarly I studied the Gita of Hindus. I am a student of God’s Revelation anywhere in the World, as I enjoy it. How our Merciful God took care of our ancestors in the ancient times and present times, in the East and West and North and South; all human beings, we feel delighted.

One has studied the Bible and spent one’s time with it. So one knows how the verses are to be studied unbiased yet with love and with the context. It is a good start, now start studying Quran. When you finish a chapter; you may discuss its contents.

Why should one wait others to debate; while doing nothing? It is better to start reading and then discussing the points not understood with a group, like here in this forum. Everybody start reading and discussing here.

I think you understand my view point.

Thanks

In that case, you can pick one from R_not posting. Just pick the verse, not his interpretation. That should be a good start to begin with.

 

[swariffin]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

woow… that’s really very nice of you

In other forum , I posted some verses from OT & Quran & asked if participants can identify which verse is from which holy book . I am doing it again for you; let me know if u can understand .

Similarities between Muslims & Jewish Holy Books

The following verses are describing how Jews were blessed , also punished by God Almighty in the past . If not mentioned , it’s hard to understand which verse is from which Holy Book.

{ Test ur knowledge … can u identify the verses ??? Give me ur honest answer }

Still , media & non-Muslims complaint that Quran is hard on Jews. I wonder , why this allegation/misconception ?

Quran described what happened in the past …if it’s harshness , why nobody says Jewish holy Book is also hard on them ? If it’s not harshness , then next time , when u see anyone complaining against Quran about this matter , pl. correct him/her.

Hope , my Jewish sisters & brothers know that Muslims do respect Jews as ’ people of the Holy Book ’ & our holy Quran tells us how children of Israel were blessed by God Almighty. So, if u are not angry with ur holy Book , don’t misunderstand Quran, too.

1. And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers
2. Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God
3. . But after they had rest, they did evil again before Thee;
4. Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others.
5. But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments,
6. Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples
7. they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee,
8. Yea, forty years didst Thou sustain them in the wilderness, and they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
9. We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophethood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above the nations

convertstoislam.org

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm

Sorry sister, the most important thing is how the verses of the OT, the NT as well as Quran is interpreted. Not the writing, let alone the translation in English or into whatever language. You will not get the message of God from being sola scripturist.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

Sorry sister, the most important thing is how the verses of the OT, the NT as well as Quran is interpreted.

My point is don’t misunderstand Quran . Our holy book does not teach us hate/ violence. This is a misconception.

John - United Kingdom

Title: Does the Qur’an Teach Violence?

hope you scholars will help me get rid of these confusions I have been having since the Sept 11 incident, especially as regards some Qur’anic verses. These verses totally contradict what Muslims say that their religion calls for peace and denounces violence.

Muzammil Siddiqi:

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.)

(Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive)

but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)

However, your question is valid, then how come the Qur’an says, (kill them wherever you find them…) as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 191 and Surah An-Nisaa’ 4: 89.

The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:

(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors…

Allah Almighty knows best.

full ans here :

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544502

 

[swariffin]

Dear Sister,

I have told you many times that verses in the holybook can’t surely be interpreted too literally. If there is a misunderstanding of us interpreting Quran, then you are very very welcome to explain your point of view. We are waiting for your explanation and your reasoning behind. I know some of us is too agressive to present what he believes about verses in Quran. You have a fair chance and unrestricted by the moderator to explain.

Take one of the verse that we misunderstood the most, perhaps. For example, the Jihadist verses, the Taqiyaa, or whatever convenience to you. Let’s have a discussion. Actually I admire your patience. But, please do provide some reasoning.

 

[Reuben_J]

I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read this and I actually rooted for the Russians on this one!! They have the guts where our western counries are behaving like cowards - when the muslims requested a mosque be built in Russia, they said 'Yes, but only if they can build a Church in Saudi Arabia.’.

This forbidding churches to be built, or even fixed up, etc are in ANY and ALL countries where sharia laws exist. And that is what they want in our Western countries - sharia laws. gag

Notice how the Muslims gleefully showing their Muslim brethrens praying in the Christain churches in America? If only their governments could reciprocate for the Christians in their homelands to do the same.

Do you think you will see the day when expatriate Christians would use Muslim mosques in Islamic countries to say mass?

 

[Nicolas]

Notice how the Muslims gleefully showing their Muslim brethrens praying in the Christain churches in America? If only their governments could reciprocate for the Christians in their homelands to do the same.

Do you think you will see the day when expatriate Christians would use Muslim mosques in Islamic countries to say mass?

And that is happening despite that the prophet let Christians pray at his mosque in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago