Discussion on the Qu'ran and Hadith

[paarsurrey]

I am interested to know what an Ahmadi knows about the Bible that I do not know.

Hi

Well I have good relationing with my Catholics friends here. I know that I have to learn so many things from Catholics, similiarly they could learn many things from me, i don’t mind, if they find a truth in them.

I have told you one things that you could not, in my opinion, get yourselves from Bible that “Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross” and being an innocent man he did not die in such a disgraceful manner rather he died a natural and peaceful death in India. NTBible has so many vesrses hinting towards it, even in the case that it was compiled by people who were not trusted friends of Jesus, to me, and hence did not know perhaps that Jesus had gone to India .

Please don’ t mind.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

swariffin, that is not the reply to my question. I wanted to know about the difference in the tempo of the bibleOT verses which were revealed while Moses was inside Egypt and those verses of OT which were revealed after he came out of Egypt. Please see my post #301:
**swariffin, that is correct. But my question was: Did you notice any difference in the verses of the bibleOT while Moses was inside Egypt and those verses which pertain to Moses having come out of Egypt. There is quite a lot of difference in temper and modus operandi.

Will you please tell the difference. Then you will be happy and satisfied about the verses of Quran which were revealed in Makkah and those revealed in Madinah.**

Simple. Moses never write Jihadist verses or the Taqiyya verses, for instance. That is the difference of OT and the Quran.

Meccan and Medina verses are both in Quran. Both are written by Muhammad. Why you asked me (as a Christian) about that? If I give you my answer, you will either say that I am dishonest or my answer is too Christian.

 

[planten]

Simple. Moses never write Jihadist verses or the Taqiyya verses, for instance. That is the difference of OT and the Quran.

Meccan and Medina verses are both in Quran. Both are written by Muhammad. Why you asked me (as a Christian) about that? If I give you my answer, you will either say that I am dishonest or my answer is too Christian.

swariffin, it appears that you did not read my post properly. I am not asking you about Quran. i am asking you about the verses of the bibleOT which were revealed before Moses came out of Egypt and those verses which were revealed after he came out of Egypt.

 

[Lapell]

thing like this I don’t mind asking questions on, and I hope my question here won’t actually be a trap-setting one, but something that will help us go further…
I think what is making a number of us make assumptions against Islam being a religion of peace is precisely all these “except for a just cause” which to some opens a door to mad fanaticism, terrorism, heavy tyrannic domination over the non-Muslims, the women, those one can’t bear, etc.
How one sees “justice”, “just causes” may differ from one individual to another. Isn’t that a field where there should bea common teaching to all Muslims so that if what one considers to be just but is seen unjust by the Almighty and All-merciful, it should be made clear to all, shouldn’t it? Now, on this it seems that not every Muslim spiritual leader agrees on what constitues a true just cause that would justify making someone die? And like in our Western systems of justice, there must at times be some judicial errors, like people innocent being wrongly convicted. In which case, when this is acknowledged, what reparation should be done according to Islam?
Also, there must be cases when the penalty would be seen by outsiders as too harsh considering the fault or the sin. I understand that there should be some reasons behind such harshness, I agree that we must not be led to think that doing harm to others is of no concern to the Almighty. Yet…
Well, these are my questions about it.
I believe our Western systems of justice have to be reformed from time to time because of considerations such as these, so I suppose how justice is applied according to Islam could be reviewed from time to time also… although maybe a bit differently?

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4507620:

That was your mistake. I did not know who did it. After sending my post, later I read your next post that it was done by you by mistake. So what is the hurry in breaking off friendship? Thank you for being un-freindly.

Yes, I acknowledged I acted slightly quickly.
Only after that night I kept thinking about it and the thought came to me that your tone may not have been what I thought it was.
I certainly was too quick in my reaction. When you experience a certain fatigue and ignore it, things like this can happen, especially if you happen to have a temper like I do have at certain times!!! I apologize to you, planten. I am sorry.
I didn’t know you considered me to be a friend, BTW. Or maybe I have to reexamine what makes someone a friend and what doesn’t. Maybe some revision is in order!!! Advent is quite a good time to self-examine.

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4507620:

That was your mistake. I did not know who did it. After sending my post, later I read your next post that it was done by you by mistake. So what is the hurry in breaking off friendship? Thank you for being un-freindly.

Funny! How come does this appear as MY quote when it was planten’s? That’s how it read in the previous post I sent…

 

[Lapell]

swariffin, it appears that you did not read my post properly. I am not asking you about Quran. i am asking you about the verses of the bibleOT which were revealed before Moses came out of Egypt and those verses which were revealed after he came out of Egypt.

Yourself, planten (since I understand the Muslims are allowed to read the books of the Torah (or Pentateuch) ), do YOU see a difference between the verses before Moses and the Israelites went out of Egypt and the verses after he went out of Egypt? I suspect you must have seen some since you’re asking about it.

 

[Lapell]

Moreover, this topic is about the Qu’ran and the Hadiths, is it not?

 

[R_not]

Hi

I think when the posters here remain mostly focussed on the views expressed by Tradtional Muslims or their Clergy of Medievial Age thinking, rather than the truthful view of Muhammad/Quran/Islam; knowingly or unknowingly they are providing support to Terrorism.

If they are sincere they should isolate the terrorists from Muhammad/Quran/Islam; which is a truth. Please don’t let the terrorists get support from Muhammad/Quran/Islam which is not there; absolutely not at all.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

So very true.

Here is the problem - **we infidels, or kufir, are asking so called ‘moderate’ muslims to tackle and confront extremism and extremists within their community…” - by which the kuffar mean that we want muslims to place the aims, ways, agenda and values of the kuffar before their muslim duty to aid, assist, defend and act honourably toward their brothers and sisters.

We should remember what Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala says:

“When they [the deniers] seek compromise, they only desire you to compromise.” 68: 9 Interpretation of Meaning.**
This is why they will tell us we are bashing them when we tell them - from their own texts - what mohammed really was. Or that we tell them that we know exactly what jihad is and that ‘inner struggle’ is not the jihad that mohammed pushed which was 97% of the time was that violent jihad against the non-muslims. But, mohammed wasn’t dumb he knew that many wouldn’t actually fight so he told the others to support the violent ones - muslim charities, deception and da’wa, etc.

 

[R_not]

Moreover, this topic is about the Qu’ran and the Hadiths, is it not?

it is called ‘deflection’. When they cannot answer to their own texts they start deflecting by bringing up other things. (eg: our history, our Bible (of course they won’t prove that it was corrupted so they constantly refer to their koran in thought while quoting our verses), victimhood, etc) All ploys.

And then if they are expected to answer - they will fall silent and not post for awhile so as to hope that we forgot what we have asked of them.

To any muslim on this thread, please answer this question:

Which islamic or Arabic scholars have translated the word “islam” as “peace”?

Please show the hadith, surha, or other text that shows it was translated to mean ‘peace’.

 

[R_not]

Simple. Moses never write Jihadist verses or the Taqiyya verses, for instance. That is the difference of OT and the Quran.

Meccan and Medina verses are both in Quran. Both are written by Muhammad. Why you asked me (as a Christian) about that? If I give you my answer, you will either say that I am dishonest or my answer is too Christian.

mohammed didn’t write anything, nor did he read anything - such as the Bible - that same book he said that was corrupted he didn’t have a clue as to what it really said with his own eyes since he was an illiterate pagan, and his allah kept changing its ‘mind’ all the time.

But, here are some differences with the stories of Moses (and there are differences in the stories of Abraham, Adam and Eve and Creation, etc). He was trying to convert people who knew their scripture while mohammed did not:

*mohammad incorporated a skewed mix of Jewish and Christian teachings within his “revelations” in an effort to draw converts from those faiths. He even claimed that allah was the “same God” as the God of Jews and Christians. (Qur’an: 029.046) However, his theological interpretations about God conflicted with those taught by Jews and Christians, thus, mohammad began to encounter resistance from them as well as from his own tribe. Herein are a few discrepances between the islamic God, allah and the Jewish God, Yahweh:

1.) allah gave different instructions to Moses, than those of Yahweh: *

“And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said: 'Strike the rock with thy staff. Then gushed therefrom twelve springs.”’
(Quran:002.060)

This conflicts with the Old Testament teaching where God instructed Moses to “Speak” to the rock - not strike it:

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water…” (Numbers 20: 7-12)

The Fact is, Moses struck the rock with his staff and water did gush forth!
However, because he had disobeyed God by not speaking to the rock as
instructed, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. This is a noteworthy discrepancy whereby only one account can be the correct one. Either God’s instructions to Moses were to “strike” the rock or they were to “speak” to the rock.

• Note: Qur’an 002.060 concurs with Exodus 17:6 where God asked Moses to strike the rock the first time. However, the Qur’an fails to mention the second event and resulting failure of Moses to obey God as mentioned in Numbers 20:7-12. By not providing the account of the second incident, the Qur’an is misleading as it fails to give an accurate report of the complete instructions that God had given during the time of Moses’ leadership.

Another theological discrepancy between allah and Yahweh is regarding the specific color of the heiffer that is to be offered in the cleansing sacrifice.
Islamic theology states that allah requires a “Yellow” heiffer, but in the Old Testament, Yahweh instructs Moses to offer a pure “Red” heiffer. Herein are the instructions from both views:

The Qur’an reads:

“They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.” (Qur’an: 002.069)

TheOld Testament reads:
“And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:” (Numbers 19: 1-2)

Here again we have Islamic and Judaic theology conflicting on God’s instructions that were given to Moses. However, the color of the heiffer must be of significant importance in that it determines the only one that can be acceptable to God as an offering during the Temple rites. Did God require Moses to acquire a “Yellow” heiffer or a “Red” heiffer?*

 

[R_not]

Hi

Well I have good relationing with my Catholics friends here. I know that I have to learn so many things from Catholics, similiarly they could learn many things from me, i don’t mind, if they find a truth in them.

I have told you one things that you could not, in my opinion, get yourselves from Bible that “Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross” and being an innocent man he did not die in such a disgraceful manner rather he died a natural and peaceful death in India. NTBible has so many vesrses hinting towards it, even in the case that it was compiled by people who were not trusted friends of Jesus, to me, and hence did not know perhaps that Jesus had gone to India .

Please don’ t mind.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

Could you please post those verses that allude to what you are saying?

I have heard a lot of stuff and this is a new one to me. The Mormons say Jesus did and said stuff that I have never heard before, mohammed did the same thing well before Joseph Smith and now you are saying Jesus went to India after He was crucified?

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
I have told you one things that you could not, in my opinion, get yourselves from Bible that “Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross” and being an innocent man he did not die in such a disgraceful manner rather he died a natural and peaceful death in India. NTBible has so many vesrses hinting towards it, even in the case that it was compiled by people who were not trusted friends of Jesus, to me, and hence did not know perhaps that Jesus had gone to India .

Could you please post those verses that allude to what you are saying?

I have heard a lot of stuff and this is a new one to me. The Mormons say Jesus did and said stuff that I have never heard before, mohammed did the same thing well before Joseph Smith and now you are saying Jesus went to India after He was crucified?

Paarsurrey says:

Hi

I have written so many posts and started so many thread in this forum, perhaps, you have not read them; if you could see my post with my profile here.

Well I don’t mind giving some more on this.

**Second Coming **1835-1908 says:

Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion – and resurrection – went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is altogether wrong. Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.

Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting. The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the ‘fish’, what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead?

The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon.

In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten tribes of the Israelites who 721 years1 before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him.

Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.2

In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the prophet Jonah accepted Jonah.

And this was inevitable, for Jesus had said in so many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

swariffin, it appears that you did not read my post properly. I am not asking you about Quran. i am asking you about the verses of the bibleOT which were revealed before Moses came out of Egypt and those verses which were revealed after he came out of Egypt.

OK then, Before and After Moses came out of Egypt, he was the prophet selected by God to lead the Israellite out. Before coming out of Egypt, Moses were hesitating to accept the Job, but after coming out of Egypt he had too much self confidence, so that God punished him for not being able to enter the promised land.
Are you satisfy now? But it is clear to me that Moses did not write any Jihadist nor Taqiyya verses.

 

[R_not]

Paarsurrey says:

Hi

I have written so many posts and started so many thread in this forum, perhaps, you have not read them; if you could see my post with my profile here.

Well I don’t mind giving some more on this.

**Second Coming **1835-1908 says:

Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion – and resurrection – went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is altogether wrong. Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.

Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting. The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the ‘fish’, what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead?

The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon.

In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten tribes of the Israelites who 721 years1 before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him.

Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.2

In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the prophet Jonah accepted Jonah.

And this was inevitable, for Jesus had said in so many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

Thanks

Quite an active imagination. Here is the problem that I have with it. If Jesus were alive then at least 12 apostles would have acknowledged His being alive in at least one of the scriptures. None did. They would have been joyous beyond belief and never have left His side and went to do His bidding by preaching the Word of God.

As many muslims always miss the point since they are steeped in the carnal part of the physical being. Which we see even in their heaven which is nothing but a garden of lust, greed, etc. The Seven Deadly Sins are glorified in islam - lust, greed or avarice, pride, anger, etc - which is why mohammed had to redefine sin. So, they are not able to know that the ‘Life’ that is talked about after Jesus died was the Life Everlasting with Him in heaven.

muslims are not able to deal with the Trinity, Life Everlasting, the Immaculate Conception, etc as we have witnessed on these threads too many times to count. Basically, they are unable to fathom that God can do ANYTHING. Or even do more than one thing at a time. Gee, the Creator of this Universe they are unable to fathom could become man and also still be God. It is no wonder when we look further into why they are unable to fathom that when they are told that allah couldn’t remember and changed its mind all the time, or that it didn’t even know that the earth revolved around the sun, or man could eventually leave the earth’s atmosphere!

As for going to India - yes, it certainly is on the same order of Joseph Smith’s claim that Jesus also went to the Americas. If we ever get visitors from another planet - I would bet they would claim that Jesus went to their planet too.

There were none that knew of Jesus in India before any missionary went there to preach the Word of God.

allah says we cannot leave earth?

allah says the mountains stand firm and stop the earth from moving

 

[R_not]

I found this article, it could be why we don’t see too much coming from the Middle East except for jihadists!:

UN Survey: Arabs Read Approximately 4 Pages Per Year
December 9th, 2008

• No wonder they’re so intelligent. But somehow they know all about jihad. Mysterious, isn’t it?

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/images-12.jpeg

…one must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – Jews and Christians, typically] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…

From Al-Ghazali (arguably the ‘greatest scholar in Islam’)

by Malkah Fleisher
(IsraelNN.com) The average Arab in the Middle East reads approximately four pages worth of literature a year, according to a RIA Novosti Russian news service report published in November.

The Syrian newspaper Tishreen, commenting on a recent survey conducted by the United Nations, said that according to the study, Americans read an average of 11 books a year, with the average Briton reading eight books.

The Arab Thought Foundation, which reports on cultural development in Arab countries, concluded that only a little more than 8 percent of Arabs aspire to a higher education.

The U.N. survey reported that every year, one new book title is published per 12,000 people in the Arab world, as compared with one per 500 people in Britain. Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) says Israel publishes more than 4,000 books a year, making Israel the second highest per-capita publisher in the world, after the People’s Republic of China.

The United Nations Development Programme Literacy Report for 2007-2008 listed Israel in 56th place for world literacy, with the Palestinian Authority coming in 80th, Jordan 84th, Lebanon 97th, Iran 114th, Syria 120th, and Egypt in 132nd place.

 

[R_not]

this is a subject we have heard so many denials from muslims on these threads that it is not a part of islam, but they are instead tribal practices. Well, that is just a downright… well, deception. And keep in mind that the stated goals of muslims is to establish sharia laws in our lands - not necessarily to convert us but to subjugate us.

’honor killings’ is indeed in their islamic texts.

Honor killing in Pakistan: Girl clubbed to death by uncle
A manual of Islamic law certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy says that “retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.” However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” (‘Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).
In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law.“Girl clubbed to death by uncle,” by Khadijah Shah of the Rays of Development Organisation, at STOP! Honour Killings, December 9 (thanks to Religion of Peace):

Bahawalpur, Pakistan: One young girl was clubbed to death by her uncle for her alleged illicit relations with a man in TM Pannah Police jurisdiction here on Thursday. Accused Fida Hussain, uncle of Shehnaz Bibi, found her niece sitting with her alleged paramour Amir Khan. He took her to her house and later clubbed her to death.Police have registered a murder case against Fida Hussain on the complain of the girl’s father Nazir Ahmad.

Source:
Ferhan Mazher
Chairman,
Rays of Development Organization, Sargodha, Pakistan.

If one does a search of this you will read about honor killings in all of the Middle East, AFrica, southeast Asia - wherever there is sharia law enforced you will find that honor killings are ok.

 

[R_not]

We should also clarify the above law in that killing infidels is ok too. The laws only apply to muslim on muslim crimes. muslim on non-muslim crimes are ok in sharia law. It is all based on their texts and calling for our deaths is found quite a lot in their texts.

 

[Lapell]

OK then, Before and After Moses came out of Egypt, he was the prophet selected by God to lead the Israellite out. Before coming out of Egypt, Moses were hesitating to accept the Job, but after coming out of Egypt he had too much self confidence, so that God punished him for not being able to enter the promised land.
Are you satisfy now? But it is clear to me that Moses did not write any Jihadist nor Taqiyya verses.

Since we are Christians, why not add that it could be said there is a difference in what Jesus taught before and after he let the Apostles know that he is the Messiah and the Son of God (according to Matthew), one big difference being that after that point he was teaching them that he would suffer a lot, that he would be tried, crucified, and on the third day he would resurrect… he didn’t teach that before that very point.
Maybe there such a thing as a before and an after in the teachings of Moses, but that’s something I should examine first, for I wasn’t taught about such a thing until planten brought that point.
But this should be examined under another thread maybe… I don’t mind examining it, though…

 

[Lapell]

But the question about which are Medina verses and which are Mekka verses seems to imply that there was a progression or a change in Muhammad’s teachings (if I understand well the point that several posters tried to bring our attention to), especially about those involving respect and love for those who worship the One true God and the Jihad against the Infidels (which certain groups of Muslims apparently include the Jews and the Christians, and anyone who is not a Muslim…)
Here I don’t think all Muslims are of only one opinion on this and probably can’t be. Am I mistaken?