Discussions Between FSSPX And Rome

[Dempsey1919]

After the Holy Father lifted the excommunications of the four FSSPX Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre, I remember reading that talks would take place between Rome and the SSPX on doctrinal issues. However, I haven’t heard anything more about these talks in weeks.

It has been said that the issues which prevent the FSSPX from regaining canonical approval are doctrinal, and not liturgical. The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum solved the liturgical problem, and the lifting of the excommunications was a gesture of loving mercy by the Pope. The only thing that remains is for the discussions between the FSSPX and Rome to take place. I wonder what these discussions will be about? And is it possible to predict their outcome?

Many of you have studied the SSPX situation for years. Based on your studies, what do you think are the main issues that will be addressed during these talks?

 

[Chatter163]

I know that it has already been established thet FSSPX is a legitimnate abbreviation. However, most in the English-speaking world who discuss the traditional scene use FSSP for the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and SSPX for the Society of St. Pius X. A simply internet search will bear this out. For this reason and for the sake of clarity, I would urge that these two abbreviations be used. To do otherwise invites confusion and misunderstanding.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I know that it has already been established thet FSSPX is a legitimnate abbreviation. However, most in the English-speaking world who discuss the traditional scene use FSSP for the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and SSPX for the Society of St. Pius X. A simply internet search will bear this out. For this reason and for the sake of clarity, I would urge that these two abbreviations be used. To do otherwise invites confusion and misunderstanding.

I choose to use the correct abbreviation, which is FSSPX. Thanks for expressing your opinion, but your post doesn’t really contribute to the conversation of this thread. With that said, do you have anything to say about the upcoming discussions between the Church and the FSSPX?

 

[bpbasilphx]

I pray it results in the full regularization and normalization of the SSPX.

 

[daughteroftruth]

I was under the impression that they had to accept Vatican II in “light of Tradition,” which they already do, so I’m just as confused about this as you are.

 

[Dempsey1919]

daughteroftruth:

I was under the impression that they had to accept Vatican II in “light of Tradition,” which they already do, so I’m just as confused about this as you are.

Exactly!

The SSPX has never had a problem with Vatican II as long as it does not contradict what was previously taught. It is also worth remembering that Archbishop Lefebvre gave his approval by signing every document of Vatican II.

I don’t think the SSPX has a problem with Vatican II per se. They have a problem with certain interpretations of the documents which appear to contradict pre-Conciliar Church teaching. For this reason, I think (and hope) that the discussions between Rome and the FSSPX will result in clarifications about what was taught at Vatican II. In my opinion, the Magisterium needs to provide an authoritative interpretation of Vatican II so that the entire Church knows what the Council Fathers intended when they promulagated each document.

Some traditionalists wish to see Vatican II revoked. This will never happen, and I hope that it doesn’t. However, it is my hope and wish that the Church ends all debate about the meaning of Vatican II by defining and declaring a true and authortitative interpretation that does not contradict with Tradition. In my opinion, this is also what the SSPX wants.

 

[thistle]

I choose to use the correct abbreviation, which is FSSPX. Thanks for expressing your opinion, but your post doesn’t really contribute to the conversation of this thread. With that said, do you have anything to say about the upcoming discussions between the Church and the FSSPX?

Reading the posts on the many threads on this subject the consensus seems to be that it could take years before full reconciliation takes place although we should all pray for it to happen sooner.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Reading the posts on the many threads on this subject the consensus seems to be that it could take years before full reconciliation takes place although we should all pray for it to happen sooner.

Yes, but a lot of the posts were written before two very important developments. The first was Summorum Pontificum, the Motu Proprio which gave the entire Roman rite free use of the Tridentine Mass. The second was the lifting of the excommunications of the four Bishops who were consecrated by Lefebvre without papal mandate. Both of these events were hugely important in the reconciliation process. In fact, many traditionalists never imagined that the Tridentine Mass would be restored; and it is even more unbelievable that the excommunications would be declared null and void! However, the SSPX stated that these milestones must occur before full re-communion could take place.

Pope Benedict XVI has done more to heal the SSPX case than John Paul II did in his entire pontificate. It is not my intention to devalue John Paul II because he was a great pope. I am merely highlighting the fact that Benedict XVI has a done a great deal in such a short time. This is why I think the SSPX could be reconciled sooner, rather than later. At this point, it depends solely on the doctrinal discussions which are going to take place between Rome and the SSPX.

 

[thistle]

Yes, but a lot of the posts were written before two very important developments. The first was Summorum Pontificum, the Motu Proprio which gave the entire Roman rite free use of the Tridentine Mass. The second was the lifting of the excommunications of the four Bishops who were consecrated by Lefebvre without papal mandate. Both of these events were hugely important in the reconciliation process. In fact, many traditionalists never imagined that the Tridentine Mass would be restored; and it is even more unbelievable that the excommunications would be declared null and void! However, the SSPX stated that these milestones must occur before full re-communion could take place.

Pope Benedict XVI has done more to heal the SSPX case than John Paul II did in his entire pontificate. It is not my intention to devalue John Paul II because he was a great pope. I am merely highlighting the fact that Benedict XVI has a done a great deal in such a short time. This is why I think the SSPX could be reconciled sooner, rather than later. At this point, it depends solely on the doctrinal discussions which are going to take place between Rome and the SSPX.

I hope its sooner than later but the posts I’m referring to are subsequent to the excommunications being lifted. There seemed to be an assumption that that would mean talks soon and a relatively quick reconciliation. However, my reading of the posters comments in the threads running after lifting of the excommunications is that most think it could be a long time, maybe years before SSPX are in full union with Rome.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I hope its sooner than later but the posts I’m referring to are subsequent to the excommunications being lifted. There seemed to be an assumption that that would mean talks soon and a relatively quick reconciliation. However, my reading of the posters comments in the threads running after lifting of the excommunications is that most think it could be a long time, maybe years before SSPX are in full union with Rome.

I thought the talks would have happened immediately after the lifting of the excommunications. They probably would have, but the media storm over the Bishop Williamson affair has probably slowed the process down. I think the Holy See is waiting until the dust settles before moving forward with the SSPX. I doubt the unwise comments of one Bishop would stop the Pope from trying to reconcile a Society that has many priests, brothers, nuns, and laypeople. However, it is clear that the whole mess surrounding Williamson has put a spanner in the works.

 

[Yours_Truly]

Reading the posts on the many threads on this subject the consensus seems to be that it could take years before full reconciliation takes place although we should all pray for it to happen sooner.

Rome has already offered the SSPX an apostolic administration, but the SSPX refused. The SSPX wants to clear up the doctrincal confusion first. They want the ambiguities addressed and clarified for the good of the Church before they move forward. They are willing to sacrifice their own comfort, and suffer the label “schismatic” for the good of the Church. We can already thank them for the preservation and restoration of the Traditional Mass which would have been nothing but a memory if it wasn’t for the SSPX.

God is using them as the key instrunment in the preservation and restoration of the Mass and the faith. They are the heros of our day. That’s why they are hated so much. It is one of the signs confirming that they are the enemies of the devil - the prince of this world. The heretical Orthodox are not hated (some even argue that they are not heretics or schismatics), the Protestants are treated with great affection, while the SSPX alone is hated (as the Pope said in his recent letter). For those with eyes to see, these are all confirmations of the position the SSPX is taking, not to mention the good fruits that are being produced - not only for the SSPX itself and those who attend Mass at their parishes, but for the universal Church as a whole.

Today, as during the days of St. Athanasius, it is SSPX contra mundum. Yet these hated ones are willing to sacrifice themeselves and their ease and comfort (a quick agreement with Rome) for the insistance that Rome clear up the doctrinal confusion that has resulted in so much chaos in the Church.

I thank Almighty God that he converted me to the Catholic Church through the SSPX (where I was taught the true faith) and has allowed me to see the truth, and through the modern errors, from the beginning. Praise be to God.

 

[pnewton]

Pope Benedict XVI has done more to heal the SSPX case than John Paul II did in his entire pontificate.

I agree. How much this was the late pontiff and how much it was those under him, who knows. I have often focused on the emotional barriers on the part of the SSPX, but this thread got me thinking that it takes two to fight. In retrospect, I believe it likely that there have been personality issues on both sides during this conflict.

Daughterof truth said she understood that they had already accepted Vatican II tradition. I really do not know of any doctrinal postition they hold that is currently an unacceptable one. In most areas, there is some latitude of disagreement. This is why I see reconcilliation as more of a administrative issue than doctrinal. Personalities will count more than argument. I think the Holy Father has subordinates in place that are willing now to facilitate this reconcilliation.

 

[ProVobis]

I thought the talks would have happened immediately after the lifting of the excommunications. They probably would have, but the media storm over the Bishop Williamson affair has probably slowed the process down. I think the Holy See is waiting until the dust settles before moving forward with the SSPX. I doubt the unwise comments of one Bishop would stop the Pope from trying to reconcile a Society that has many priests, brothers, nuns, and laypeople. However, it is clear that the whole mess surrounding Williamson has put a spanner in the works.

I’ll agree with that sentiment. The Williamson thing was just another attempt to derail any movement back to tradition for not only the SSPX but for all others. Oh sure, FSSP and Institute were “loyal” and “obedient” to the Pope but the liberals just ran out of ways to kick them out of the Church. Look at the reaction to Pope John Paul’s 88 DECREE to make the Latin Mass more “wide and generous.” The only thing remembered about that decree was that it also included the word “schismatic” somewhere else in the document and the liberals and gossipists overmilked that to suit their agenda; not much was done to make the Latin Mass “wide and generous.”

 

[Dempsey1919]

Rome has already offered the SSPX an apostolic administration, but the SSPX refused. The SSPX wants to clear up the doctrincal confusion first. They want the ambiguities addressed and clarified for the good of the Church before they move forward.

The Church needs to issue the final word regarding Vatican II. We all know Vatican II was a conservative council that was hijacked by liberals intent on pushing their own agenda. They were able to do this because the language of Vatican II permits several interpretations. **For this reason, the Church must issue statements explaining the true meaning of Vatican II. **

The doctrinal discussions between Rome and the SSPX will eliminate these false interpretations, and provide us with the correct teachings of Vatican II. The mess surrounding Vatican II needs to be cleared before the SSPX and Rome can move forward.

Also, I hope these discussions explain to what extent the documents of Vatican II are binding on the Church. Vatican II was a pastoral Council. Nothing in the Sacred Deposit of Faith was further explained and no doctrines developed. Therefore, are Catholics required to accept the pastoral elements of Vatican II as infallible?

 

[Dempsey1919]

God is using them as the key instrunment in the preservation and restoration of the Mass and the faith. They are the heros of our day. That’s why they are hated so much. It is one of the signs confirming that they are the enemies of the devil - the prince of this world. The heretical Orthodox are not hated (some even argue that they are not heretics or schismatics), the Protestants are treated with great affection, while the SSPX alone is hated (as the Pope said in his recent letter). For those with eyes to see, these are all confirmations of the position the SSPX is taking, not to mention the good fruits that are being produced - not only for the SSPX itself and those who attend Mass at their parishes, but for the universal Church as a whole.

I’ve always had mixed feelings about the SSPX. However, I believe Summorum Pontificum and the lifting of the excommunications proves that the SSPX was right about a lot of things. For one thing, there was a time when most Catholics were told that the Tridentine Mass had been forbidden. The SSPX always claimed that it could never be abrogated. Summorum Pontificum proved them right. Secondly, a lot of people said that the excommunications would never be lifted unless the SSPX accepted the contemporary interpretations of Vatican II. The SSPX still reject these interpretations, and the excommunications have been declared null and void. The lifting of the excommunications was an act of mercy by the Pope, but I still think it gives credence to the arguments of the SSPX regarding the post-conciliar developments in the Church.

After these two developments, I am willing to say that I support the cause of the SSPX. I thank them for saving the Tridentine Mass from extinction, and I pray that they will help to eliminate the uncertainties and ambiguities surrounding the Second Vatican Council. If this does happen, I believe the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre would have been justified and will be praised.

 

[Yours_Truly]

The Church needs to issue the final word regarding Vatican II. We all know Vatican II was a conservative council that was hijacked by liberals intent on pushing their own agenda. They were able to do this because the language of Vatican II permits several interpretations. **For this reason, the Church must issue statements explaining the true meaning of Vatican II. **

The doctrinal discussions between Rome and the SSPX will eliminate these false interpretations, and provide us with the correct teachings of Vatican II. The mess surrounding Vatican II needs to be cleared before the SSPX and Rome can move forward.

Also, I hope these discussions explain to what extent the documents of Vatican II are binding on the Church. Vatican II was a pastoral Council. Nothing in the Sacred Deposit of Faith was further explained and no doctrines developed. Therefore, are Catholics required to accept the pastoral elements of Vatican II as infallible?

Great post. I agree with all you said.

 

[ProVobis]

For one thing, there was a time when most Catholics were told that the Tridentine Mass had been forbidden. The SSPX always claimed that it could never be abrogated. Summorum Pontificum proved them right.

Actually it was a group of nine Cardinals who met in 1986 and assembled by the Pope but their decision was not made public at the time, much to the dismay of the SSPX and other traditional groups. Perhaps the Archbishop overreacted to the suppression of these findings but we’ll never know for sure.

 

[Chatter163]

I choose to use the correct abbreviation, which is FSSPX. Thanks for expressing your opinion, but your post doesn’t really contribute to the conversation of this thread. With that said, do you have anything to say about the upcoming discussions between the Church and the FSSPX?

My observation was a contribution, thank you and I shall continue to offer such contributions wherever and whenever I see fit.