Discussions with a Muslim

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I believe it was someone to do with our God. Who do you think it was then?
That is completely impossible!

No one connected with our God would tell Mohammed that Jesus is not God, did not die for our sins and did not rise from the dead.

No one!

There are some possibilities.
  1. Mohammed was a liar.
  2. Mohammed was mad.
  3. Mohammed was spoken to by a being who claimed he was from God.
1 and 3 are the real possibilities for me.

It is a CORE Muslim belief that Jesus is not God. They are Christ-deniers.

It doesn’t matter about common elements of faith (relativism). The devil mixes truth and lies. The Muslim religion is a lie - either Mohammeds or the Devils.
 
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FightingFat:
So you agree that it shares some elements of our own faith?
“Some Elements” is right. But remember that the best deceptions, are mixed in with quite a bit of truth. Look at the great heresies like Gnosticism, Arianism and Manichaeanism, that threatened to destroy the early Church.

The devil tries to destroy true faith by planting a counterfeit to deceive people. This was prophecied in several places in the Bible. Anti-Christ and the False Prophet, are those who preach a similar Faith to Christianity, but among other things, deny the divinity of Jesus.
So what do you think happened?
The “angel” who appeared to the first Muslim denied the divinity of Christ, and taught a lot of other things contrary to Christian teaching. (Reviving a Jewish type law, stoning women, killing your enemies). Islam immediately invaded Christian Lands.
I believe it was someone to do with our God. Who do you think it was then?
Evidence is that it is a deceiving spirit. BOTH revelations cannot be true.
 
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John_19_59:
That is completely impossible!

No one connected with our God would tell Mohammed that Jesus is not God, did not die for our sins and did not rise from the dead.

No one!
LOL!

Some reading I have done on the subject proffers the hypothesis that Mohammed recieved the faith from a Catholic Priest. He later killed the priest and made up his story about Jibral/ Gabriel, and butchered the message a bit to keep in line with Arab tradition and beliefs.
There are some possibilities.
  1. Mohammed was a liar.
  2. Mohammed was mad.
  3. Mohammed was spoken to by a being who claimed he was from God.
1 and 3 are the real possibilities for me.
But the CCC (literal meaning “Instruction”) teaches us: -

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
It is a CORE Muslim belief that Jesus is not God. They are Christ-deniers.
Maybe they are just Christ not-knowers and a bit of gentle instruction along with a prod from the Holy Spirit might get them thinking?
It doesn’t matter about common elements of faith (relativism). The devil mixes truth and lies. The Muslim religion is a lie - either Mohammeds or the Devils.
Well, you seem to be at odds with your own faith on that one friend!
Better we speak with love and charity, we are all brothers and sisters in humanity after all!
 
4 marks:
I would dialogue respectfully, but I would avoid engaging in a theological jousting match. Moslems have profound reasons for believing as they do. Did you know that they believe that Christ is coming again to “judge” his people, and that there will be an actual figure in the end times known as the “Antichrist?” Heck, many Catholics don’t even believe this truth. They also believe that Jesus was a holy prophet and say “peace be upon him” everytime his name is mentioned. Contrast this with profaning his name that many Catholics regularly practice.

They also hold that Jesus (Issa) was born of a virgin (Miryam) and did not have a human father.

Moslems are not our enemies. They are our friends. Together with our Jewish brothers and sisters, we are people of the Book, and fellow children of Abraham.

I love Moslems. Ask the intercession of Saint Francis of Assisi to deepen our love and concern as Catholic Christians for our Moslem neigbors.
No, Muslim do not believe that Jesus is coming back to judge. Since according to them Jesus is not God, He cannot judge.
A Muslim with whome I am having a conversation at work on religion, laughed at me when I said that Jesus was coming back to judge. They bellieve that Jesus is coming back to fulfill the purpose assign from God, however they do not know what this purpose is. They do speculate on this purpose, and “judging” is probably one of the speculations.

According to Muslim teaching, Jesus will come back, get married, have family then die and be buried by Muhhammad.

I too love Muslims, and feel profound sadness at the bondage of the religion they profess. They do not have freedom to convert to another religion, often it is a death sentence for them.

Jesus, I trust in you.
 
Well, you seem to be at odds with your own faith on that one friend!

The CCC is wrong and I am not at odds with my faith. Nowhere does the Magesterium of the Church require us to beileve we worship the same God.

Nowhere is there an article of faith that states Muslims worship the same God as us (that statement in the CCC is not an article of faith).

Muslims are quite precise in their beliefs - they belief that God is one and that God IS NOT Jesus Christ.

It is simply impossible that an angel from the God we worship told Mohammed the things he did.

It is simply impossible that the angel who announced to Mary the birth of Gods Son, would tell Mohammed the complete opposite.

No gentle prodding of Muslims will persuade them otherwise.

The Church since 1965 (the first time ever the Catholic Church started talking about this hetrodox idea) has been deceived.
 
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Axion:
They deny He is Son of God though.

While we must not seek to hate Muslims, we need also to be wary. They are not Christians, they deny Jesus is Lord, and their aim is the abolition of Christianity. If a muslim converts to Christianity, the brotherhood ends, and the punishment is death.

The disputants in the original post have clearly been given “proof texts” to use in converting Christians. Try telling a muslim their scriptures are false, and see what happens. I think Salman Rushdie was the last one to do that.

Saint Francis wanted to convert them to Christianity, not merge faiths.
If a person of another faith were to ask to convert to Catholicism, that is one thing. If we intentionally target and prosletyze others with the view to converting them out of the religious belief systems to which they sincerely hold, that is quite another.

Evangelical protestants want to convert Catholics, Catholics want to convert Moslems, Moslems want to covert Jews, and so on…
To me, this represents an insecurity in one’s own embraced belief system and a desire to take matters into our own hands. This had led to religious conflict, war, and yes, the present attitude in the west that traditional religious belief systems are all quite dangerous and detrimental and should be squelched. Consider the words of the visionary modern prophet, John Lennon: “Imagine no religion. I wonder if you can. Nothing to KILL or DIE FOR. A BROTHERHOOD OF MAN.” How telling.

Yes, there are many Moslems who seek the conversion of others. I believe this is the primary motivation of groups like Al-Qaeda and people like Zarqawi. And yes, of these type of people, we should be wary. But I do not consider Moslems (as distinct from “Muslim” which represents to me the African-American wing exclusively, not the worldwide faith) a group to be specifically targeted to be converted to Roman Catholicism. Those days of imperialistic jingoism and “jungle missionary” activity are long past as we strive to encourage PROGRESSION down a path of MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING.
 
4 marks:
If a person of another faith were to ask to convert to Catholicism, that is one thing. If we intentionally target and prosletyze others with the view to converting them out of the religious belief systems to which they sincerely hold, that is quite another.

Evangelical protestants want to convert Catholics, Catholics want to convert Moslems, Moslems want to covert Jews, and so on…
To me, this represents an insecurity in one’s own embraced belief system and a desire to take matters into our own hands. This had led to religious conflict, war, and yes, the present attitude in the west that traditional religious belief systems are all quite dangerous and detrimental and should be squelched. Consider the words of the visionary modern prophet, John Lennon: “Imagine no religion. I wonder if you can. Nothing to KILL or DIE FOR. A BROTHERHOOD OF MAN.” How telling.

Yes, there are many Moslems who seek the conversion of others. I believe this is the primary motivation of groups like Al-Qaeda and people like Zarqawi. And yes, of these type of people, we should be wary. But I do not consider Moslems (as distinct from “Muslim” which represents to me the African-American wing exclusively, not the worldwide faith) a group to be specifically targeted to be converted to Roman Catholicism. Those days of imperialistic jingoism and “jungle missionary” activity are long past as we strive to encourage PROGRESSION down a path of MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING.
Bravo, great post!
:clapping:
 
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John_19_59:
The CCC is wrong
Well, if it’s a choice between you posting on an internet forum and the CCC…Guess what? I’m going with the CCC.
👍
End of discussion!
 
To me, this represents an insecurity in one’s own embraced belief system and a desire to take matters into our own hands
It is the mission of the Church to make converts!!!
 
Guess what? I’m going with the CCC.
The CCC is wrong.

As a Catholic you are not required to believe as an article of faith that Muslims worship the same God as us.

That would be a new doctrine, and we are not allowed to invent new doctrines.

It is quite within your rights to say I don’t believe that Muslims worship the same God as us.

As I said - Mohammed was either, bad, mad or deceived.

Islam is a false religion.
 
4 marks:
Evangelical protestants want to convert Catholics, Catholics want to convert Moslems, Moslems want to covert Jews, and so on…
To me, this represents an insecurity in one’s own embraced belief system and a desire to take matters into our own hands.
No. It is fulfilling Jesus’s scriptural instruction to preach the Gospel to all nations. It is being solid in our own belief system, and therefore sharing the Gospel of Salvation in Christ.
This had led to religious conflict, war, and yes, the present attitude in the west that traditional religious belief systems are all quite dangerous and detrimental and should be squelched.
Well. It depends if you believe the gospel or not, which says that there is only ONE way to God, through Jesus, and that other claimed gods are false, often demonic, and lead to destruction. If you do not believe what the gospel teaches, then of course you have nothing to share, and are merely inventing your own religion as you go on.
Consider the words of the visionary modern prophet, John Lennon: “Imagine no religion. I wonder if you can. Nothing to KILL or DIE FOR. A BROTHERHOOD OF MAN.” How telling.
This was the same visionary prophet who said “Imagine no possessions,” and then spent tens of thousands of pounds on shoes, clothes, etc?

And as for “Nothing to KILL or DIE FOR. A BROTHERHOOD OF MAN”. Come off it!

Never have their been deadlier wars and persecutions than in the age of Atheism/Agnosticism and materialism.:
French Revolution. 1 Million dead
World War 1. 10 Million dead
World War II - 20 Million dead
Vietnam War 1 Million dead
Cambodia 1 Million dead
Korean War ??? dead
Russian revolution and Communism: 5 Million Dead
Nazism: 6 Million Dead.

Nothing to kill or die for, indeed!
Yes, there are many Moslems who seek the conversion of others. I believe this is the primary motivation of groups like Al-Qaeda and people like Zarqawi. And yes, of these type of people, we should be wary. But I do not consider Moslems (as distinct from “Muslim” which represents to me the African-American wing exclusively, not the worldwide faith) a group to be specifically targeted to be converted to Roman Catholicism. Those days of imperialistic jingoism and “jungle missionary” activity are long past as we strive to encourage PROGRESSION down a path of MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING.
Al Qaeda seek not conversion but domination. There is nothing wrong with trying to peaceably convert others, so long as you don’t start slaughtering people who peaceably try to convert the other way.

The problem with Islam is that their idea of “mutual understanding” is to come to Christian lands, demand equal-rights to worship and proselytise, to grow in numbers and to start asking Christians to adapt to their ways (veiling, segregation of women in education, no criticism of Islam, removal of Christian symbols, christian principles removed from government, education etc.) But then in Muslim lands they refuse these freedoms to Christians, kill missionaries and people who convert, and drive out Christian minorities through discrimination and terror.

That type of “Mutual Understanding” will quickly see Christianity replaced everywhere.
 
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FightingFat:
LOL!

Some reading I have done on the subject proffers the hypothesis that Mohammed recieved the faith from a Catholic Priest. He later killed the priest and made up his story about Jibral/ Gabriel, and butchered the message a bit to keep in line with Arab tradition and beliefs.
Have you read Hilaire Belloc’s The Great Heresies? Islam began as a heresy not as a new religion. He goes on to say that it was a perversion of Christian doctrine. He was not born Catholic, but a pagan. What he was taught of the Catholic faith was oversimplified. I also read (can’t remember if its in this book or not) that what Mohammed knew of Catholicism had leanings toward Arinaism. I do remember reading his wife was an Arian Catholic and her uncle (or other relative) was a priest. I never heard about him killing the priest though.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305clas.asp
 
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Axion:
No. It is fulfilling Jesus’s scriptural instruction to preach the Gospel to all nations. It is being solid in our own belief system, and therefore sharing the Gospel of Salvation in Christ.

Well. It depends if you believe the gospel or not, which says that there is only ONE way to God, through Jesus, and that other claimed gods are false, often demonic, and lead to destruction. If you do not believe what the gospel teaches, then of course you have nothing to share, and are merely inventing your own religion as you go on.

This was the same visionary prophet who said “Imagine no possessions,” and then spent tens of thousands of pounds on shoes, clothes, etc?

And as for “Nothing to KILL or DIE FOR. A BROTHERHOOD OF MAN”. Come off it!

Never have their been deadlier wars and persecutions than in the age of Atheism/Agnosticism and materialism.:
French Revolution. 1 Million dead
World War 1. 10 Million dead
World War II - 20 Million dead
Vietnam War 1 Million dead
Cambodia 1 Million dead
Korean War ??? dead
Russian revolution and Communism: 5 Million Dead
Nazism: 6 Million Dead.

Nothing to kill or die for, indeed!

Al Qaeda seek not conversion but domination. There is nothing wrong with trying to peaceably convert others, so long as you don’t start slaughtering people who peaceably try to convert the other way.

The problem with Islam is that their idea of “mutual understanding” is to come to Christian lands, demand equal-rights to worship and proselytise, to grow in numbers and to start asking Christians to adapt to their ways (veiling, segregation of women in education, no criticism of Islam, removal of Christian symbols, christian principles removed from government, education etc.) But then in Muslim lands they refuse these freedoms to Christians, kill missionaries and people who convert, and drive out Christian minorities through discrimination and terror.

That type of “Mutual Understanding” will quickly see Christianity replaced everywhere.
The meek shall inherit the earth.

All of the conflict that you mention above is man’s doing. Man refusing to obey Christ’s path of dying to self, and unconditional love for all people, even one’s enemies and detractors.

While it is true that some people do use their religious and political belief systems as excuses to commit atrocities, authentic “people of good will” refuse to do so. Religious hatred and prejudice cuts in many directions.

By prosletyzing, I mean belittling others for holding to what one determines as “inferior” or “less inspired” religious beliefs. Some Catholics, as evidenced by certain posts here and elsewhere, also engage other Catholics in this fashion.

People are led to authentic faith by the activity of the Holy Spirit, not by acting upon impulse, emotion and coercion.

People everywhere are crying out: “Don’t tell me…SHOW ME!”
 
FightingFat, if your muslim friend is confused by the appearent contradictions in the bible, ask him to consider them in the same light he must read the Qu’an wherein god often claims ‘we are one’.
4 marks:
…Consider the words of the visionary modern prophet, John Lennon: “Imagine…Nothing to…DIE FOR…”
kinda makes an idiot of the divine ancient prophet, Jesus, doesn’t it?
mr lennon also said he hoped we’d would join him, cuz then the world could live as one (in peace). does that give rise to the charge of proselytizing? if he’s telling us his is a better way, then ours must be ‘inferior’ or ‘less inspired’, right?
also, a true brotherhood of man is not possible without accepting the true fatherhood of God.
and where you quote it, meek does not mean ‘timid’, it means ‘humble’.
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Axion:
…Russian revolution and Communism: 5 Million Dead…
the russians killed 30 million ukranians alone and mao’s cultural cleansing took the lives of at least 100 million chineese. so communism is likely responsible for around 150 million lives, if not more.

Christ is risen!!
 
Funky Cedars:
FightingFat, if your muslim friend is confused by the appearent contradictions in the bible, ask him to consider them in the same light he must read the Qu’an wherein god often claims ‘we are one’.
O sounds good! Got any examples I could use? 🙂
 
Funky Cedars:
kinda makes an idiot of the divine ancient prophet, Jesus, doesn’t it?
mr lennon also said he hoped we’d would join him, cuz then the world could live as one (in peace). does that give rise to the charge of proselytizing? if he’s telling us his is a better way, then ours must be ‘inferior’ or ‘less inspired’, right?
also, a true brotherhood of man is not possible without accepting the true fatherhood of God.
and where you quote it, meek does not mean ‘timid’, it means ‘humble’.
I am not saying that Lennon was correct. I am saying that the example that many Christians, particularly Western Catholic Christians, have given over the years has been…how should I put it…scandalizing to others who are sincerely seeking truth. No wonder they have reached the conclusions that they have reached.

Yes, meek does not mean “timid,” but it does insinuate one who does not draw attention to one’s self or one’s cause to boast that one is living in the Truth and walking in holiness and that everyone else is living a lie and in sin. A truly humble person, beats their breast and cries out, “Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner,” and “Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing.”

Far too often self-righteous Catholics go around pointing fingers at others. I’ve heard it all…“She’s been divorced and is now remarried…no anullment…tisk, tisk,” or “Father is probably just another one of those liberal post-Vatican II types,” or “That couple chose to abort their first child because they are just selfish people.”

Humble people look beyond all the baggage and recognize the good in others. They don’t exclude others from unconditional love and acceptance.
 
wisdom 3:5:
Have you read Hilaire Belloc’s The Great Heresies? Islam began as a heresy not as a new religion. He goes on to say that it was a perversion of Christian doctrine. He was not born Catholic, but a pagan. What he was taught of the Catholic faith was oversimplified. I also read (can’t remember if its in this book or not) that what Mohammed knew of Catholicism had leanings toward Arinaism. I do remember reading his wife was an Arian Catholic and her uncle (or other relative) was a priest. I never heard about him killing the priest though.
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305clas.asp
This opinion was shared by the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen, who also pointed Islam out as being singular among heresies in that it has never died out/down…That to understand Islam requires that we look to the heretical sects to which Muhammed was exposed…
 
They don’t exclude others from unconditional love and acceptance.
Is Gods love unconditional?

I would say not - the ten commandments are all conditions.

“Go and sin no more”.
 
FightingFat, i’m not home right now, i’ll see if i can’t come up with some examples for you tonight.
4 marks:
I am not saying that Lennon was correct…
perhaps then, calling him ‘visionary’ and ‘prophet’ would not be appropriate?
4 marks:
…A truly humble person, beats their breast and cries out, “Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner,” and “Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing.”
but in todays readings we hear J command us to spread His Good News. can’t do that only by asking for His mercy. knowing what God has done for us will humble us, but will also encourage us to fulfill our baptismal call to evangelize. there are multiple facets to living out our faith.
4 marks:
Far too often self-righteous Catholics go around pointing fingers at others…
the problem is with their self-righteousness, not the Catholic faith. we need to pray that they may become better disciples. in the meantime, perhaps asking Daddy to forgive their failing would be good.
4 marks:
Humble people look beyond all the baggage and recognize the good in others. They don’t exclude others from unconditional love and acceptance.
i’d say that thru parts of the Church, like Catholic Charities and Caritas, we’re doing a pretty good job of that.

Happy Feast of the Ascension!!
Christ is risen!!
 
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