Discussions with Sunni Muslims

[jakasaki]

They’ve brought that St. Paul one out on me as well. Or Constantine invented Christianity…then when you show them what was actually said at the counsel and then show them what Arias actually taught (not a Muslim teaching by any stretch), they want to stop listening.

It’s entirely frustrating as, for me personally, if I was embarrassed or physically repulsed by things that are said to be God ordained, I would, at the very least, be questioning every priest I could find to see why on Earth I should keep being such a faith. If I had to run from my history as opposed to embracing it the more I learn about it, that would set off warning bells in my head.

Hi MOCatholic…

Can you give us a little background on what started this debate?

Who are these people? ← yes we know they are Sunny…

Why do you meet them for these sorts of discussions?

Also, you need to remember this.

For them, these muslims, anything that they say against the koran is hellfire.

Anything that they might question regarding the koran or mohamad is hellfire.

Anything that they might question regarding the sunna of mohamad is hellfile.

They are simply NOT allowed, otherwise it’s hellfire.

I think and believe that you can talk to them, debate them until you are blue, there are only very few muslims that have an open mind.

Did you ever ask why they MUST put “pbuh” in everything they say about mohamad and yes, the koran prophets.

It’s FEAR by religion. There is NO free will with muslims. There is NO Father God relationship with them.

They can be the greatest faithful muslim on earth, and yet they do not know what allah will choose for them.

There is a passage in the koran and I will not dig it up right now, but it states something like:

“allah guides whom he wishes” and that “allah will mislead others”…

Something of this sort.

Makes you wonder that sort of god this allah is…???

OK… I looked it up for your reference…

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one Ummah: but He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

oneummah.net/aboutone.htm

The above 16.93 is interesting because first of all, if you stray, allah will leave you and not call you to him… but if he feels like it… allah will guide you and call you to him.

However, since allah does not guide you because he has neglected you, he will still judge you for you actions.

Is that messed up or what!

 

[Mvrk]

…

Makes you wonder that sort of god this allah is…???

OK… I looked it up for your reference…

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one Ummah: but He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

oneummah.net/aboutone.htm

The above 16.93 is interesting because first of all, if you stray, allah will leave you and not call you to him… but if he feels like it… allah will guide you and call you to him.

However, since allah does not guide you because** he has neglected you, he will still judge you for you actions. **

Is that messed up or what!

And he could deceive you
*very evil i think, leaved by allah, judge by allah, and deceived by allah.

like they said, allah tricked the Jews and Romans by exchange Jesus in the cross with someone else

 

[Contarini]

I’ve been friends with a group of muslims in my area for about the past year, and because of our religious differences things have gotten rather tense and have degraded to a hostile environment between us.

This family is a Sunni family and I’ve tried to show them Hadith (such as ones dealing with Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf’s demise or with female captives) but they tell me that those are made up. It’s frustrating when I can cite 20 pro-Muslim websites that all say verbatim the same thing, but because they don’t want to believe it they practice extreme amounts of cognitive dissonance.

I am genuinely concerned about them, of course, and I was wondering if anyone has had any success dealing with situations like this where the audience wants to ignore things that their own people have said. What did you say to get through to them? What is a good way to address the authenticity of these sources? Are there any good online sources that attest to the authenticity of tafsir, hadith, or other biographical materials?

I’ve got a meeting with them this week and am trying to put together some more stuff that we haven’t talked about yet. What one thing would you want a Muslim to see/hear/read if you had a “captive” audience?

Thanks in advance for any and all help

Go back through your post. Imagine it being written by a Protestant. For “Muslim” read “Catholic.” For “Hadith” say “official Catholic Church documents.” For the specifics you cite say “burning of heretics, persecution of Jews, etc.”

Then apply the Golden Rule. I would like to think that the answer to your question would become obvious.

Edwin

 

[MOCatholic]

Go back through your post. Imagine it being written by a Protestant. For “Muslim” read “Catholic.” For “Hadith” say “official Catholic Church documents.” For the specifics you cite say “burning of heretics, persecution of Jews, etc.”

Then apply the Golden Rule. I would like to think that the answer to your question would become obvious.

Edwin

Very good advice. I like to think that I’ve put the magnifying glass as much on my own faith as I have on their’, and various others I’ve looked at. I try to read the opinion of atheists, Muslims, and those outside the Church to see what each side has to say.

I’ll be sure to apply the golden rule when dealing with them as I know this information is hard for someone to take who has never heard it. And especially hard when you’ve grown up believing one thing and now you’re being shown that such belief may be wrong.

 

[MOCatholic]

Hi MOCatholic…

Can you give us a little background on what started this debate? I met members of the family and began discussing religion in a very low key fashion. It was centered on the differences and an air of “oh, that’s interesting”. I met with some scholars on their side and various other people to try and learn what Islam was all about. I did outside research and did things like reading hadith and becoming alarmed at what it said. I brought it to their attention and that has led to fights about how I was making things up.

Who are these people? ← yes we know they are Sunny… They’re people I have a personal investment with. They’re a very warm and loving family that has accepted me, but not my religion. That’ll probably tell you enough to figure out what’s going on, but I’d rather not say anything too specific.

Why do you meet them for these sorts of discussions? Beyond the personal ramifications, I feel it’s important to recognize objective truth. I honestly believe that it is everyone’s (who has the capacity) duty to seek beyond what they were born into. I meet with them because if they’re going to follow something, they need to know everything about it. I think being wishy-washy about anything is a bad course of action, especially with religion. Why should you be critical of the non-important things, but emotional and “ostrich like” on the things that matter the most…God to me wants us to question and ultimately find Him.

Also, you need to remember this.

For them, these muslims, anything that they say against the koran is hellfire.

Anything that they might question regarding the koran or mohamad is hellfire.

Anything that they might question regarding the sunna of mohamad is hellfile.

They are simply NOT allowed, otherwise it’s hellfire.

I think and believe that you can talk to them, debate them until you are blue, there are only very few muslims that have an open mind.

Did you ever ask why they MUST put “pbuh” in everything they say about mohamad and yes, the koran prophets.

It’s FEAR by religion. There is NO free will with muslims. There is NO Father God relationship with them.

They can be the greatest faithful muslim on earth, and yet they do not know what allah will choose for them.

There is a passage in the koran and I will not dig it up right now, but it states something like:

“allah guides whom he wishes” and that “allah will mislead others”…

Something of this sort.

Makes you wonder that sort of god this allah is…???

OK… I looked it up for your reference…

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one Ummah: but He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

oneummah.net/aboutone.htm

That is interesting. I think I might bring that up. It does seem odd God would forsake those genuinely seeking just because He chooses

The above 16.93 is interesting because first of all, if you stray, allah will leave you and not call you to him… but if he feels like it… allah will guide you and call you to him.

However, since allah does not guide you because he has neglected you, he will still judge you for you actions.

Is that messed up or what!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I Hear this EVERY time in my Local Forum… Usually they take few verses from bible to disprove the Divinity of Jesus without consider other verses that support it. Very Sola Scriptura i think… (from Islam point of view)

I wouldn’t say sola scriptura, because those who use sola scriptura correctly would allow it to speak for itself and realize the mistake. They would realize, for example, that it’s silly to say, “They didn’t break Christ’s legs, so that means He could’ve still been alive” is silly because the very next verse afterward says they stabbed Jesus with a spear. Therefore anyone who uses that argument is either blatantly lying, borrowing bad argumentation from somewhere else - I call the latter the “running to Google” strategy (also known in some areas as the “running to Wikipedia” strategy).

 

[jakasaki]

**

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one Ummah: but He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

**

oneummah.net/aboutone.htm

That is interesting. I think I might bring that up. It does seem odd God would forsake those genuinely seeking just because He chooses

The above 16.93 is interesting because first of all, if you stray, allah will leave you and not call you to him… but if he feels like it… allah will guide you and call you to him.

However, since allah does not guide you because he has neglected you, he will still judge you for you actions.

Is that messed up or what!

MOCatholic ~ That passage/verse alone is great. Since you are a Catholic, you know what that this teaching is opposite of what we Christians believe in.

Lets take the verse apart:

If Allah so willed, ~ If allah willed or wanted or chose

He could make you all one Ummah:

Allah can make ALL OF YOU, ONE, UMMAH, whole community in harmony.
**
but He leaves straying whom He pleases, **

But, he, allah, if he pleases him, he will stray you, he will send you down the wrong path.

**and He guides whom He pleases: **

However… if allah feels like it and it pleases him, he will quide you into the right path.

but you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

Well you be damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Because if allah puts you on the WRONG path, you still have to answer and account for your wrong actions even though allah put you there.

Although, allah willed and strayed you, you still have to answer him.

Again, what sort of being is this allah. ???

 

[Sam_777]

Also, if I’m reading this correctly, Mohammed’s own family member was translating a Bible was he not? This family I’m discussing things with is a “jewish conspiracy” Biblical corruption group - and so maybe I’ll bring up the fact that Mohammed should’ve had his own authentic copy for all to read from if he wanted to show that the Jews and Christians of his time were lying or “writing with their own hand”.

The issue here that Muhammed didn’t want his people to read the Bible in general, in this hadith Muhammed frowned when he heard some verses of Torah, to the extent that he denied Moses’s teaching, so I think it’s either Muhammed was afraid of his followers to know that some texts of Quran were taken from the Torah or he was afraid of his people start reading the Torah in Arabic and find out that there is no written prophecy for him.

Abu’l-Darda’ & Musnad Ahmed hadiths:
‘Umar brought some pages of the Tawraat to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, (these are) some pages of the Tawraat which I took from a brother of mine from Bani Zurayq.’ The face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) changed, and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Zayd – the one who was shown the Adhaan in a dream – said: ‘Have you gone mad? Do you not see [the expression] on the face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?’ ‘Umar said: ‘We are content with Allaah as our Lord, with Islam as our religion, with Muhammad as our Prophet and with the Qur`aan as our guide. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) relaxed and said: ‘By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if Moosa were among you, and you followed him and left me, you would go far astray. You are my share among the nations and I am your share among the Prophets.’

مسند أحمد:
جاء ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏إلى النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقال يا رسول الله إني مررت بأخ لي من ‏ ‏بني قريظة ‏ ‏فكتب لي ‏ ‏جوامع ‏ ‏من التوراة ألا أعرضها عليك قال فتغير وجه رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏عبد الله يعني ابن ثابت ‏ ‏فقلت ‏ ‏له ألا ‏ ‏ترى ما بوجه رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏رضينا بالله تعالى ربا وبالإسلام دينا ‏ ‏وبمحمد ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏رسولا قال فسري عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وقال والذي نفس ‏ ‏محمد ‏ ‏بيده ‏ ‏لو أصبح فيكم ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏ثم اتبعتموه وتركتموني لضللتم إنكم حظي من الأمم وأنا حظكم من النبيين ‏
​

(E) (A)

 

[Contarini]

Very good advice. I like to think that I’ve put the magnifying glass as much on my own faith as I have on their’, and various others I’ve looked at. I try to read the opinion of atheists, Muslims, and those outside the Church to see what each side has to say.

I’ll be sure to apply the golden rule when dealing with them as I know this information is hard for someone to take who has never heard it. And especially hard when you’ve grown up believing one thing and now you’re being shown that such belief may be wrong.

Well, I was going in a different direction with it, but if you really wouldn’t mind a Protestant approaching you with such “information” about your own Church, then I guess you aren’t violating the Golden Rule.

Myself, I cannot think of a way to present such “information” correctly. Better to try to understand their faith as *they *live it instead of imposing your polemical caricature on them. Better to witness to your faith by living it out *and, *when appropriate, by pointing out the *positive *distinctives of your faith (such as the Incarnation).

Edwin

 

[MOCatholic]

Well, I was going in a different direction with it, but if you really wouldn’t mind a Protestant approaching you with such “information” about your own Church, then I guess you aren’t violating the Golden Rule.

Myself, I cannot think of a way to present such “information” correctly. Better to try to understand their faith as *they *live it instead of imposing your polemical caricature on them. Better to witness to your faith by living it out *and, *when appropriate, by pointing out the *positive *distinctives of your faith (such as the Incarnation).

Edwin

I read as much as I can on here, and elsewhere, about the grievances people have against Catholics and the Catholic Church. If I were to do what I see others doing (i.e. ignoring my own Church history) and then complain about the very same thing, I would have no room to talk.

The rest of your jabs at me non-withstanding, I’ll simply say that I’ve been invited into their home to have this discussion so I can hardly envision a more appropriate opportunity. I try and live my life as an example as well, and with that and these discussions I hope they see that this “polemical caricature” is what their religion is based on (and the very way their founder intended it to be practiced) and not some nebulous set of words that doesn’t affect them.

 

[MOCatholic]

The issue here that Muhammed didn’t want his people to read the Bible in general, in this hadith Muhammed frowned when he heard some verses of Torah, to the extent that he denied Moses’s teaching, so I think it’s either Muhammed was afraid of his followers to know that some texts of Quran were taken from the Torah or he was afraid of his people start reading the Torah in Arabic and find out that there is no written prophecy for him.

Abu’l-Darda’ & Musnad Ahmed hadiths:
‘Umar brought some pages of the Tawraat to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, (these are) some pages of the Tawraat which I took from a brother of mine from Bani Zurayq.’ The face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) changed, and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Zayd – the one who was shown the Adhaan in a dream – said: ‘Have you gone mad? Do you not see [the expression] on the face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?’ ‘Umar said: ‘We are content with Allaah as our Lord, with Islam as our religion, with Muhammad as our Prophet and with the Qur`aan as our guide. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) relaxed and said: ‘By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if Moosa were among you, and you followed him and left me, you would go far astray. You are my share among the nations and I am your share among the Prophets.’

مسند أحمد:
جاء ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏إلى النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقال يا رسول الله إني مررت بأخ لي من ‏ ‏بني قريظة ‏ ‏فكتب لي ‏ ‏جوامع ‏ ‏من التوراة ألا أعرضها عليك قال فتغير وجه رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏عبد الله يعني ابن ثابت ‏ ‏فقلت ‏ ‏له ألا ‏ ‏ترى ما بوجه رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏رضينا بالله تعالى ربا وبالإسلام دينا ‏ ‏وبمحمد ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏رسولا قال فسري عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وقال والذي نفس ‏ ‏محمد ‏ ‏بيده ‏ ‏لو أصبح فيكم ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏ثم اتبعتموه وتركتموني لضللتم إنكم حظي من الأمم وأنا حظكم من النبيين ‏
​

(E) (A)

Interesting that if Moses was in their midst they’d have gone “far astray” when, according to what I’ve read, each prophet brought the same message for their specific people. Also interesting that there’s no condemnation of the books being wrong at that time, but more of a discarding of history for this new person and his (unique) message.

 

[Contarini]

The rest of your jabs at me non-withstanding, I’ll simply say that I’ve been invited into their home to have this discussion

Your OP did not make that clear. That does make a difference.

I try and live my life as an example as well, and with that and these discussions I hope they see that this “polemical caricature” is what their religion is based on

Don’t people who practice a religion get to decide what it is based on? I would be very offended (or perhaps would just laugh) if a non-Christian were to tell me what my religion is based on. I often hear even fellow-Christians make claims about what Christianity is based on with which I disagree.

(and the very way their founder intended it to be practiced)

That’s an impossible claim to make. None of us can read Muhammad’s mind. Period. The most historical scholarship can do is give us a probable hypothesis, which is understandably not going to outweigh people’s faith commitments all on its own. How much is your own faith shaken by the consensus of most scholars of the historical Jesus (including many Catholics) that Jesus did not claim to be Divine or even (most likely) to be the Messiah, and certainly did not intend to found a Church?

Of course, I remain somewhat dubious as to whether your “information” comes from actual scholars rather than polemicists. Which, if true, is a further reason why one should not expect Muslims to take it too seriously.

Edwin

 

[MOCatholic]

Your OP did not make that clear. That does make a difference.

Don’t people who practice a religion get to decide what it is based on? I would be very offended (or perhaps would just laugh) if a non-Christian were to tell me what my religion is based on. I often hear even fellow-Christians make claims about what Christianity is based on with which I disagree.

Sure, if you choose to make subjective judgments then no one is going to stop you.

That’s an impossible claim to make. None of us can read Muhammad’s mind. Period. The most historical scholarship can do is give us a probable hypothesis, which is understandably not going to outweigh people’s faith commitments all on its own. How much is your own faith shaken by the consensus of most scholars of the historical Jesus (including many Catholics) that Jesus did not claim to be Divine or even (most likely) to be the Messiah, and certainly did not intend to found a Church?

Of course, I remain somewhat dubious as to whether your “information” comes from actual scholars rather than polemicists. Which, if true, is a further reason why one should not expect Muslims to take it too seriously.

I’m basing my discussion on koran; hadith; tafsir. If you believe those sources are polemics then so be it.

Edwin