Dishonest Apologetics

[Lampo]

Thanks anevilatheist (I feel funny calling you that. Wish you would change it.) for taking the time to break down those two arguments with your perspective. I will try my best to leave feedback on your responses in the day(s) to come.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Dear EvilAtheist. I have read before and re-read again the article on the site you sent. I found it interesting, but it didn’t ring true with my own experience of what I have read in ACIM. Many other concerned posters have also said their piece in regards to what they think is stated in ACIM. I personally have found most of what they claim the course claims as UNTRUE. All I can think is that they ‘just didn’t get it’. Just like so many devoted Christians think the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon and others believe it to be the Anti Christ, all with supporting scripture and arguments to support and convince the uninformed, I believe ACIM has been successfully discredited. IF this IS the true voice of Jesus, then evil has had a field day and successfully boxed Him into the NEW AGE movement. I was given a site to view on the Rosary and St Faulstine. I also, read her diary with interest. Rather than conflict with what I have read in ACIM, it reinforced it. The visuals were different but the theme was the same. ( no-one really believes that there are REAL flames in hell. Hell’s flames symbolize, to finite imaginations, excruciating pain & suffering as a result of being separated forever form God). The site was to show me my errors and present a REAL visitation from the REAL Jesus. I looked at it with a right mind but another would have also called it a NEW AGE experience. The ‘medium’ even had her own ‘spirit guide’ appearing as an angel and ‘astro travelled’. SEE HOW A BIASED MIND SEES. I will continue to study ACIM with discernment. One thing though, the Holy Spirit has clearly urged me NOT to contact or join any support group regarding this course but to do it only with the existing support I receive from the understanding of my own Catholic Faith. This I intend to do. Angie.

Thanks for taking the time to read the link I sent and respond. I think it would be unfair to dismiss ACIM out of hand as some Catholics may do and I am trying not to do that. In response to your post, I have taken a look at some of their stuff. I can understand why some of their teachings would be appealing. But what I still don’t understand is why you think it’s true. I think it is dangerous to believe things just because we want them to be true (for example, if I get an email saying I won a lottery I didn’t enter, I may want it to be true, but that doesn’t mean I should go ahead and send them my bank account number). There are only so many hours in the day and I don’t want to go through the whole course unless I think they might be on to something. So I was wondering if you could tell me why you think their teachings are true. If you give good reasons, I will then read up more on their teachings.

 

[twb1621]

Here’s my response to Kreeft’s first argument. .

Dr. Dennis Scania, head of Cambridge University Observatories, said in a BBC science documentary, "The Anthropic Principle: “If you change a little bit the laws of nature, or you change a little bit the constants of nature - like the charge on the electron - then the way the universe develops is so changed, it is very likely that intelligent life would not have been able to develop.”

Dr. David D. Deutsch, Institute of Mathematics, Oxford University: observed: “If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation, and there is no time for evolution. If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all.”

Dr. Paul Davies, noted author and professor of theoretical physics at Adelaide University, said: “The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly.”

When the late Sir Fred Hoyle was researching how carbon came to be created in the “blast-furnaces” of the stars, his calculations indicated that it is very difficult to explain how the stars generated the necessary quantity of carbon upon which life on earth depends. Hoyle found that there were numerous “fortunate” one-time occurrences which seemed to indicate that purposeful “adjustments” had been made in the laws of physics and chemistry in order to produce the necessary carbon.

Hoyle summed up his findings as follows: “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintendent has monkeyed with the physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars.”

Dr. David D. Deutch remarked: “If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features that the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features are surprising and unlikely.”

In his best-selling book, A Brief History of Time, Sir Stephen Hawking (perhaps the world’s most famous cosmologist) stated: “The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers (i.e. the constants of physics) seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life” (p. 125).

“For example,” Hawking wrote, “if the electric charge of the electron had been only slightly different, stars would have been unable to burn hydrogen and helium, or else they would not have exploded… It seems clear that there are relatively few ranges of values for the numbers (for the constants) that would allow for development of any form of intelligent life. Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no one able to wonder at that beauty.” Hawking said this was evidence of “a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)” (ibid. p. 125).

Additional reference material;
st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/index.php

I believe this post in addition to the three previous posts regarding the prophecies I offered you should give you information to seriously consider.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Thanks anevilatheist (I feel funny calling you that. Wish you would change it.) for taking the time to break down those two arguments with your perspective. I will try my best to leave feedback on your responses in the day(s) to come.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I’m sure you can tell why I asked for the two you thought were best. It would just take forever to break down all twenty.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

You have entered here with honesty and respectfulness toward those you raise your issues with and in this I respect you for that.
Your searching for answers however, through the wrong means in that you are looking for the Truth in God through the arguments of others.

No matter what you are presented with it is going to be called into question because you are not investigating the evidence as you go along. It is true that forums such as this can certainly help you get answers as you search for the Truth in God and His being but you have another avenue you should also be following. If you pursue that other avenue as well, you will better appreciate the information and assistance you receive here.
Let me recommend you look into the life of Saint Justin Martyr who did not easily accept any belief system whether religion or otherwise but was a very intelligent researcher. After reading a bit about him, if only the basic story that lead him to Christianity, follow his principles and start by seeking information on the prophecies of the Old Testament and how they predicted the life of Christ as the Son of God and His fulfillment of the Old Testament. With such prophacies as were given there is no question their is a higher being and it goes on from there.

You are one that needs to find some of the proof on your own as well as what you learn here but you will better learn instead of debate if you pursue the historic facts first.
“St. Justin Martyr was born around 120 AD in Palestine into a pagan Gentile family. He studied the wisdom of Plato, Aristotle, and other great Greek thinkers and became a professional philosopher. One day, while reading philosophy by the seashore, he was noticed by an old man who took the time to strike up a conversation about philosophy and religion. The elderly gentleman was a Christian and witnessed to Justin on how Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies in the Jewish holy books. As Justin investigated the matter, his realized that he had found the wisdom that he had been searching for all of his life.
Writings: Justin then became a Christian teacher and lived for a while in Ephesus, after which he moved to Rome, the Imperial Capital. He wrote and spoke openly about Christ, addressing two “apologies” or defenses of the Christian faith to the emperor himself. Justin Martyr became one of the most influential teachers of the 2nd century. Though contemporary writers tell us that he wrote extensively on many topics, only his two apologies and his Dialogue with Trypo, the Jew, survive today.”
Additional Information at;
http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_author/23/St._Justin__Martyr.html
I am a 25 year professional investigator and researcher who dedicated the last 6 years to this quest and can tell you if you honestly seek the truth, God will give you the guidance and reassurance you need to come to Him.

Thanks for giving your honest feedback. I have not only looked for God through the arguments of others. I was initially an atheist because my own experiences had never indicated to me that there was likely a God. I have also read the arguments on both sides and sincerely asked God to reveal himself to me. What is the other avenue that you think I should be following?

I’ll look into the life of Saint Justin Martyr. I know a bit about him, but nowhere near as much as you. I always find it interesting to hear why people come to believe the things they do. It doesn’t have any real impact on me to know that an intelligent atheist converted to Christianity, or that an intelligent Christian converted to atheism because a lot of people convert for the wrong reasons. But if their reason makes sense to me, I like to examine it more and see if I should convert for the same reason. So far though, none of the reasons I’ve heard that former atheists give have been persuasive.

My main problem with relying on prophecy is that we don’t know how much of the New Testament is true. To me the most plausible theory is that Jesus lived a life vaguely similar to that depicted in the New Testament and was then crucified by the Romans. His followers then had dreams or visions of Jesus and began to spread stories that he had returned. These stories grew over time as they were passed from person to person. Those spreading the stories may have sometimes added details to make their story more captivating, exaggerated things in order to win converts, and added to the story when asked why certain prophecies were not fulfilled. So it certainly could be true, but I don’t know why I should consider it as anything more than hearsay or why I should trust it more than the stories of other religions. So I only consider fulfilled prophecy when there is a good reason to think it actually was fulfilled. I think there is some evidence that Jesus was crucified, so I consider prophecy relating to that. However, I do not know whether the account of that crucifixion given in the Bible is reliable (and inconsistencies indicate that it is not), so I do not think that prophecy about specific aspects of the crucifixion is good evidence that God exists.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Two Excerpts to ponder:

---

First Apology of St. Justin Martyr

ADDRESSED TO; To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Caesar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate.

Chapter 31

“…In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man’s estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God. We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose.”

What evidence do we have that the New Testament’s account of any of this is true? I concede that he probably was crucified and died and that people spread his word throughout the world. The crucifixion prophecy I’ve read seems a little vague, but even if it were true I don’t think this would be good evidence that God exists. If the only fulfilled prophecy is that a supposed prophet would be crucified and people would spread his story, that just doesn’t seem like an impressive enough prophecy to convince me that God exists especially since there are plenty of prophecies that failed (for example, Ezekiel 29).

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I would get bored with myself if I were to persist in an argument when I discover that my argument is flawed. It is also dishonest. The end never justifies the means. To be in pursuit of truth should be everybody’s aim. To persist with a flawed argument is a waste of time and boring.

Great, I agree.

I think the universe is magnificent and we have no idea (except for some scientists) as to the purpose and use of what you might refer to as “lifeless” What appears to be lifeless may not be lifeless at all!

That’s certainly true. My only point was that even if it was all lifeless, that is no evidence that God does not exist.

Oh? Is that so?

Yeah, I briefly addressed this earlier in the thread. I don’t want to rehash it here, but if interested you can check out my earlier post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5194884#post5194884.

I know that God exists when I look at creation, when I see the gifts He gave to man which enables man to build, compose, create, reason, and above all LOVE! When I consider these things I absolutely know that God does exist. Here is something which St Augustine said which stopped me in my tracks after I was always questioning everything - “* Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand*.”

• St Augustine

I don’t see how your reasoning makes sense. You are making the implicit assumption that man could not do those things if God did not exist, but I do not understand why he couldn’t.

True! I have known Atheists who have been self-sacrificing and who have suffered in solitary confinement on account of their values and their caring for humanity. I have fallen in love with an Atheist and married him!

I’m glad to hear that you were able to make the Catholic/atheist relationship work. There seem like there would be a lot of hurdles and congratulations for making it work.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I would expect you to say that simply because for us who believe in God we need Faith and Faith is based in love and trust of Almighty God. We cannot explain many things but we believe them because of the love and trust. Probably sounds corny to you.

I’m not saying I think they’re false because I don’t think God exists, I’m saying I don’t think God exists in part because the arguments I have seen have all been flawed. No, it doesn’t sound corny to me. I just don’t see why you came to have faith in the specific things that you do.

This is a difficult thing to do. However, is it so difficult for an Atheist to pray, “God if you exist reveal yourself to me!”

Not really. That is why I decided to do this as I was starting to study the arguments on both sides. I asked, not to disprove God, but because I sincerely wanted to know him if he exists.

Why not - just contemplate creation and how can you not be fascinated - see a new born child develop and grow and look how instinctively that child does things.

I find things like that very fascinating; I just think they could be that way regardless of whether God exists.

We do find happiness in comforting and helping others.

I completely agree. Here I was thinking of a well-off con artist asking for a lot of money instead of a poor man asking for a buck.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

These two Christian arguments,sir, are flawed in themselves and are not good to think of. I think it will be silly to include them in your illogical list.

I agree; they are badly flawed. But I have still heard people use them as arguments for Christianity.

There are plenty more arguments that I think are flawed on both sides, but I didn’t want to make a comprehensive list. I intentionally left off some of the more controversial arguments because I was curious how people would answer the question and didn’t want the thread to just become a debate over every single argument for the existence of God. That clearly didn’t work though.

But it’s fine. These are the kind of discussions that I wanted to have at some point anyway.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

My ex-atheist husband attended a talk by Gerald Schroader, a Jewish Psysicist, and purchased his book Genisis and the Big Bang and later read his other book The Hidden Face of God. He believed in God even before his finished Genisis and the Big Bang. He began to attend Mass with me and after 11 years converted!

Not saying it will be the case with you because God is a God of surprises. There have been atheists who have come to believe in the most extraordinary ways! One by just walking into a Church (it was raining outside) was overcome and believed! Who knows, God might reach you while lighting a cigarette!!! LOL! You never know!

Blessings
Cinette

I’ll look into Genesis and the Big Bang. I bet that happens a lot with Christian/atheist marriages, where one eventually persuades the other. And yeah, who knows what will happen. But I don’t think I would be as easily convinced by experiences that could easily happen whether or not God exists.

If you accept bad evidence, it is much easier to be convinced of untruths. For example, there’s a scam where someone sends thousands of letters that predict whether a certain stock will go up or down that week (half the people get letters predicting it will go up and the other half get letters predicting it will go down). Then the next week, the scammer does the same thing to the half that received the correct prediction. After six or so weeks of this, the person sends a letter to those who got correct picks every week and offers to sell them more picks for thousands of dollars. I see why people would fall for this. I am not trying to imply that the pope is a scammer, because that is definitely NOT what I believe. I have no reason to question the sincerity of his belief. What I am saying is that although I do not need proof, I would need to be sure that the most likely explanation for my experience was that God exists.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I like this one.

I took a look at the page, but it describes a number of different definitions of good. Would you be able to just say how you think good should be defined, either in your own words, or in a short quote from that link?

 

[anEvilAtheist]

What would you make of the fact that for any one religion there are more non-believers than believers? How strong an argument is this against deciding to practice any given religion?

I often claim that if you don’t think another alleged god is real then you’re atheist about that god. Therefore most people are 99.99% atheist when it comes to gods. Monotheism therefore becomes a form of atheism.

Theists tend to lump themselves all together when it’s convenient to do so, claiming that atheists are therefore wrong about whether gods are real. But how, if someone is claiming that another person’s god is not real, can one still hold that that other person is not atheist?

I don’t think that calling believers atheist with respect to all other Gods is a good argument against religion. I used to think it was a good argument, but then I realized that the issue of whether there is some sort of intelligent creator to the universe and what form that creator takes are really two separate questions. But if you disagree, I’m curious why. I currently don’t think that argument works, but if you can explain why it’s good I might change my mind.

However, I do think that the number of different religions does present a problem to believers. How do you explain the religious experiences of members of other religions? Those experiences seem similar to Catholic religious experiences and it is hard to believe that only Catholics are having real experiences. But if all the experiences are real, why would an omnibenevolent God encourage people to keep believing in their false religion, especially when those beliefs would result in them going to hell for eternity?

 

[anEvilAtheist]

**12-TRIAL OF JESUS: **

PROPHECIES FULFILLED

AND THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND ALL THE COUNCIL SOUGHT FOR WITNESS AGAINST JESUS TO PUT HIM TO DEATH; AND FOUND NONE. FOR MANY BARE FALSE WITNESS AGAINST HIM, BUT THEIR WITNESS AGREED NOT TOGETHER-Mk 14:55,56. For it is written, FALSE WITNESSES DID RISE UP; THEY LAID TO MY CHARGE THINGS THAT I KNEW NOT-Ps 35:11. THE HIGH PRIEST…ASKED JESUS, SAYING, ANSWEREST THOU NOTHING? WHAT IS IT WHICH THESE WITNESS AGAINST THEE? BUT HE HELD HIS PEACE, AND ANSWERED NOTHING. AGAIN THE HIGH PRIEST ASKED HIM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, ART THOU THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE BLESSED? AND JESUS SAID, I AM…THEN THE HIGH PRIEST RENT HIS CLOTHES, AND SAITH, WHAT NEED WE ANY FURTHER WITNESSES?..AND THEY ALL CONDEMNED HIM TO BE GUILTY OF DEATH-Mk 14:60-64.
AND THE MEN THAT HELD JESUS MOCKED HIM, AND SMOTE HIM-Lk 22:63. And SPIT IN HIS FACE AND STRUCK HIM WITH THEIR FISTS. OTHERS SLAPPED HIM AND SAID, “PROPHESY TO US, CHRIST. WHO HIT YOU?”-Mt 26:67 NIV.
AND THE WHOLE MULTITUDE OF THEM AROSE, AND LED HIM UNTO PILATE-Lk 23:1. AND WHEN HE WAS ACCUSED OF THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND ELDERS, HE ANSWERED NOTHING. For it is written, HE WAS OPPRESSED, AND HE WAS AFFLICTED, YET HE OPENED NOT HIS MOUTH: HE IS BROUGHT AS A LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER, AND AS A SHEEP BEFORE HER SHEARERS IS DUMB, SO HE OPENED NOT HIS MOUTH-Isa 53:7. THEN SAID PILATE UNTO HIM, HEAREST THOU NOT HOW MANY THINGS THEY WITNESS AGAINST THEE? AND HE ANSWERED HIM TO NEVER A WORD; INSOMUCH THAT THE GOVERNOR MARVELED GREATLY-Mt 27:12-14.
PILATE ANSWERED…THINE OWN NATION AND THE CHIEF PRIESTS HAVE DELIVERED THEE UNTO ME: WHAT HAST THOU DONE?-Jn 18:35.
AND AS SOON AS HE KNEW THAT HE BELONGED UNTO HEROD’S JURISDICTION, HE SENT HIM TO HEROD, WHO HIMSELF ALSO WAS AT JERUSALEM AT THAT TIME. THEN HE QUESTIONED WITH HIM IN MANY WORDS; BUT HE ANSWERED HIM NOTHING. AND THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND SCRIBES STOOD AND VEHEMENTLY ACCUSED HIM-Lk 23:7,9,10. AND HEROD WITH HIS MEN OF WAR SET HIM AT NOUGHT, AND MOCKED HIM, AND ARRAYED HIM IN A GORGEOUS ROBE, AND SENT HIM AGAIN TO PILATE-Lk 23:11.
FOR OF A TRUTH AGAINST THY HOLY CHILD JESUS, WHOM THOU HAST ANOINTED, BOTH HEROD, AND PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES, AND THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, WERE GATHERED TOGETHER-Acts 4:27. And THE CHIEF PRIESTS AND THE RULERS AND THE PEOPLE…CRIED…CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM-Lk 23:13,21. THEN…THE PEOPLE…SAID, HIS BLOOD BE ON US, AND ON OUR CHILDREN-Mt 27:25. AND PILATE GAVE SENTENCE THAT IT SHOULD BE AS THEY REQUIRED-Lk 23:24. And HE (Pilate) HAD JESUS FLOGGED, AND HANDED HIM OVER TO BE CRUCIFIED-Mk 15:15 NIV.
THE SOLDIERS TWISTED TOGETHER A CROWN OF THORNS AND PUT IT ON HIS HEAD…AND…STRUCK HIM IN THE FACE-Jn 19:2,3 NIV. AGAIN AND AGAIN THEY STRUCK HIM ON THE HEAD WITH A STAFF AND SPIT ON HIM-Mk 15:19 NIV."
source;
parentalguide.com/Documents/Jesus_Desk/Jesus_birth_life_death_res.htm

Thanks for this thorough list of fulfilled prophecies. But I still have the problems that I mentioned earlier. Which of these do you think are prophecies that have decent evidence that they were fulfilled and are unlikely to be fulfilled merely by chance? If you want to establish the New Testament as a whole or parts of the New Testament as a reliable historical account, I’d like to know why.

 

[Cinette]

anEvilAtheist!

In order to understand you better “Evil Atheist” do tell us (I have not read all the postings, sorry) how you became Atheist and what is your profession?

You don’t need to write the story of your life but just enough for us to know and understand you.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

I’ll look into Genesis and the Big Bang. I bet that happens a lot with Christian/atheist marriages, where one eventually persuades the other. And yeah, who knows what will happen. But I don’t think I would be as easily convinced by experiences that could easily happen whether or not God exists.

• my husband was a cinic, atheist, revolutionary, communist. I had turned my back on the Church for 27 years, was a revolutionary and didn’t think communism was such a bad thing until I experienced a revolution etc etc…

I came back to the Church one day just like that!! I felt the need to pray for peace and that is when it began. We then built something and there were so many “coincidences” and things began to happen that coincided with my prayers that my husband was astounded. He would sometimes remind me that I had to get ready for Mass!!!

I did not have any influence. I was learning myself and he never read any of the books I read - his books were more scientific. I never prayed with him - in fact I was “shy” to pray in front of him.

What he learned through his readings made him curious and one day he came to Mass with me and the priest had revolutionary ideas and he liked that. What also attracted him was observing the people around us, their reverence, their devotion - there was the music and the homilies. So for years he accompanied me to Mass until one day a woman who was sitting nearby came up to him and asked him “When are you going to become Catholic”. It was then that I said “why not?” He went for instruction but did not become Catholic with the others - that took another 4 years. By then we had started to pray together. He never read any of my books until the end!

So sweetheart, there you have it! Recently he said that I did have an influence but it was probably my silence. St Francis used to say “Preach the Gospel always and, if necessary, use words”! Great stuff.

For me - just observing creation and the development and growth of my grandchildren brings the wonder and beauty of God before me - poetry, music, science, LOVE…these things all point to God. We are not a thing or creature or dust - we think, create, love, - friendship, community, love…

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Great, I agree.

That’s certainly true. My only point was that even if it was all lifeless, that is no evidence that God does not exist.

Yeah, I briefly addressed this earlier in the thread. I don’t want to rehash it here, but if interested you can check out my earlier post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5194884#post5194884.

I don’t see how your reasoning makes sense. You are making the implicit assumption that man could not do those things if God did not exist, but I do not understand why he couldn’t.

I’m glad to hear that you were able to make the Catholic/atheist relationship work. There seem like there would be a lot of hurdles and congratulations for making it work.

I am reading these postings backwards.

I think my marriage worked because we were “made for each other”. We were always crazy about each other - our children used to tease us about it! Also I was away from the Church and thought that only weak people needed the Church. God was tucked away - he was a distant thought I am sorry to say. Now I thank Him for taking care of me when I was not even thinking of Him.

There is no concrete evidence to prove or disprove the existance of God. But I believe in instinct, I believe in that which is implicit in things. I feel God, I am overshelmed by God. I feel the Love.

I am not the kind of person who is taken in by rumours. I have never been to a fortune teller or been attracted by “seances” (I am not sure I can spell it) - don’t believe in ghosts and didn’t even believe in the devil!!! (ouch - I have spoken to people who have had experiences with attacks by the devil and am inclined to look out for these things - the devil is not a little guy with horns and a pointed tail LOL! I think evil is very real and manifests itself is many different ways)

“Atheist” (I have decided to drop the evil) I think 90% of journalists are evil atheists and probably devils too! The media are responsible for a lot of the lies and evil in this world. They are dangerous and do not realise the enormous responsibility they have. but that would be for another thread.

I do believe in miracles - oh YES! I believe in the power of prayer!

Cheers - I’m off
Cinette

 

[Lampo]

I took a look at the page, but it describes a number of different definitions of good. Would you be able to just say how you think good should be defined, either in your own words, or in a short quote from that link?

I guess maybe a good way to define good would be to give examples. Here are ones that come to mind:

1. The healing of someone sick
2. The beauty in nature and art
3. People helping those that need help
4. The birth of a child
5. A big, juicy steak
6. A cold beer
7. A relaxing vacation
8. Bach
9. Ohio State beating Mchg*n in any sport!

 

[Lampo]

I know. I had also read that paragraph. Just because some of the arguments were flawed, I did not assume that all of them were. I read each one and tried to see if his logic made sense. I came to the conclusion that there were problems with each of them. Although he recognizes that some are flawed, he does claim that some of the arguments do work.

I believe he said each one has its own flaw(s), but all of them taken as a whole presents a very strong argument for God’s existence.

 

[Lampo]

I’d be interested in hearing your feedback on my responses to his first and fifth arguments. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know it. After hearing so many flawed arguments that attempt to show that God probably exists, I doubt that there is a good one. But if I find one, I’ll definitely have to reevaluate my religious beliefs.

For some it is hard to believe and have faith in God. To those, I guess, He is no more real than Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. For others that choose to believe and have faith in God, whether it is hard or easy for them, is a grace from God. For those that find it very difficult to believe in God, they choose to tsubmit to their own explanation of the universe because it is easier for them. It is hard for them to go against the grain of their natural way of explaining the universe, so they look for and agree with the arguments that make most since to them without causing them to leave their comfort zone. I guess there are also people that find it easy to believe in God but choose not to. For them we should pray for as well.

If I’m wrong, I’d like to know it.

You will know it one way or the other. Hopefully, before you die. It is good that you truly want to know if you are wrong. Don’t give up on asking God to reveal Himself to you. It may not come as soon as you’d like, but just keep asking. “Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never give up.” - Winston Churchill

 

[Lampo]

What evidence do we have that the New Testament’s account of any of this is true?

One piece of evidence is the martyrdom of His Apostles.