Dishonest Apologetics

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Thanks for this thorough list of fulfilled prophecies. But I still have the problems that I mentioned earlier. Which of these do you think are prophecies that have decent evidence that they were fulfilled and are unlikely to be fulfilled merely by chance? If you want to establish the New Testament as a whole or parts of the New Testament as a reliable historical account, I’d like to know why.
Obviously it would be up to you to take the information presented and in greater depth make the comparisons as you seek the truth. Making the time is something you should wish to do for the simple reason if could make a difference not only in your earthly life but in your eternal life once you learn the truth. Now, as far as whether the prophecies should be taken as chance or as actual knowledge of future events, the evidence is in the facts and depths of those prophecies. You certainly are intelligent enough to know the laws of probability and once compared to the number of prophecies and the accuracy involved, chance is not possible, in fact out of the question. As I recommended before, check into the history of Saint Justin Martyr who came from the same mind frame as you but a professional philosopher in history.

Further, events regarding Christianity and the periods of Roman rule can be compared and as much as the Roman powers that were disliked the Christians, they served to provide verification of many things in their day. History doesn’t question the existence of the Christians, Christ, the apostles or events that took place. Only the possibility of the actual miracles which have been recorded.

Further still, if one studies and knows the human natural responses of man when it comes to danger and safety, death or survival and so on, one needs to also consider the reactions and paths of the apostles and their successors not to mention the faithful. Consider the fear and reaction of the Apostles when Jesus was taken into custody, brutally tortured and hung on the cross as He was to die such a horrid death. These things are historic so they are not in question even by non-partial historians. The Apostles reacted as anyone else would either then or today in that they believed their teacher and leader and Savior had been murdered and the same was probable for them. Remember He was their savior and had been murdered so to them at that time there was no hope whatsoever. They all took off abandoning Jesus to hide for their lives. Now, the big one (question), what possible occurrence could change these men fearful of a similar death as Jesus into men who would turn completely opposite in nature and set out publicly proclaiming His word if not something that would reaffirm their belief that He was the savior after all and there was more than what we know as this worldly life? It would have to be supernatural in nature because the only thing to change such fear in men into the absolute of an eventual confrontation leading to such horrid death would be for Christ’s returning to life as history refers and confirming His teaching including such eternal life. The apostles faced and suffered the deaths of beheadings, crucifixions, stoning and whippings to the point of bleeding to death, being torn apart by animals for the entertainment of others and more. Each apostle faced these things at different times and in different places so you can’t say they all were caught at once and didn’t have the opportunity to change their minds. They absolutely knew what eventually could and for most would happen but they remained steadfast in their teachings to death. Only the realization of a continued eternal life as promised could keep such devotion firm. The word kept by the master teacher to His students. Many had been martyred in the name of Christ. And the numerous prophecies that we refer to as inspired word of God spanned more than 5000 years before his birth to such detail you could never provide support to claim chance even remotely. And you know what I am saying to you. These things aren’t even half of all that exists in the name of God.

A good investigator doesn’t offer only one piece of evidence to prosecute a criminal he gathers all the evidence to make the case. You my unknowing brother will get no where only looking at one thing. You need to bring it all together and see what you find.
 
What would you make of the fact that for any one religion there are more non-believers than believers? How strong an argument is this against deciding to practice any given religion?
I find the “99.9% atheist” argument can sometimes be used to highlight hypocrisy and/or special pleading in the arguments of theists. e.g. some christians accept that if it is in the bible, it is unequivocally true, but would not accept the same argument from the quran.
 
I no longer put much stock in arguments for or against. I have come to realize the question cannot be answered definitively beyond a pretty powerful private revelation.

I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it – might be true. Some may have a problem with this but it is, if nothing else, honest.

I’ve lived my life both ways, ignoring God and His word and trying my best to follow God and His word. The latter is certainly better for me. Therefore I have faith.

I think it wise advice to stop seeking the definitive answer. Perhaps, the reason we cannot answer this question with all the advances in modern science, thousands of years of philosophers, theologians, scientists etc etc, is part of the plan. 😉

And…maybe not. 🤷 see?
 
One piece of evidence is the martyrdom of His Apostles.
Good point Lampo. Yes, these men were transformed from simple fishermem to devoted followers of Christ and then from that they were transformed at Pentecost. Peter, who was always putting his foot in his mouth was transformed into a leader and evangeliser. He no longer put his foot in his mouth where Jesus was concerned. The Apostles had witnessed Jesus’ miracles and were inspired to go out into the world and spread the teachings of Christ and to die for Him. They inspired others who were also martyred.

For the first 300 years all the Popes and many Christians died for their Faith.

That is a powerful witness.

🙂
 
What exactly is “Dishonest Apologetics”?

Should the thread not be entitled “Dishonest Apologists”?

😦
 
how specifically does this provide evidence of the truth of the NT? Can you please explain this issue in more detail?
I’ll just quote two Early Church Fathers who addressed this. They are more articulate than I.
But you do not believe these things? Yet, those who beheld them as they took place, and who saw them done before their very eyes, the best witnesses and the surest authorities, both believed them themselves and handed them down to us, their descendants, with no scanty measure of confirmation, for our belief. “and who might these be?” perhaps you will ask. Tribes, peoples, nations - indeed, that incredulous human race, which, if the matter is obvious and, as the saying goes, as plain as the day itself, would never grant the assent of its belief to events of such a kind. But shall we say that the men of that time were fools, liars, sluggards and brutes to such a degree that they pretended to have seen what they never saw? That they published with false testimony or affirmed with childish assertions things which never happened at all? And that when they could have lived in harmony with you and could have established pleasant relationships, they went out of their way to incur hatred and to be held in contempt? - Arnobius of Sicca, Against the Pagans, 305AD
But if the miracles of Christ] were lies invented according to a mutual agreement among His disciples, what a wonder it is that such a number were able to keep to their agreement about their fabrication, even in the face of death, and that no coward among them ever retired from the association and made a premature repudiation of the things agreed upon; nor did they ever announce anything in contradiction to the others, bringing to light what had been put together amongh themselves. - Eusebius Pamphilus, Proof of the Gospel, 316 AD
 
For some it is hard to believe and have faith in God. To those, I guess, He is no more real than Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. For others that choose to believe and have faith in God, whether it is hard or easy for them, is a grace from God. For those that find it very difficult to believe in God, they choose to tsubmit to their own explanation of the universe because it is easier for them. It is hard for them to go against the grain of their natural way of explaining the universe, so they look for and agree with the arguments that make most since to them without causing them to leave their comfort zone. I guess there are also people that find it easy to believe in God but choose not to. For them we should pray for as well.

You will know it one way or the other. Hopefully, before you die. It is good that you truly want to know if you are wrong. Don’t give up on asking God to reveal Himself to you. It may not come as soon as you’d like, but just keep asking. “Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never give up.” - Winston Churchill
I wanted to add what Fr. Corapi says. I’m paraphrasing here. “Empirical science is part of the truth. The truth is one. Allow those lower truths to bring you up higher to the highest truth of all who is Jesus Christ. To know the Truth is to be set free. What can you do when you are set free? You can know, love and serve God.”
 
anEvilAtheist!

In order to understand you better “Evil Atheist” do tell us (I have not read all the postings, sorry) how you became Atheist and what is your profession?

You don’t need to write the story of your life but just enough for us to know and understand you.

Thank you
Cinette:)
I guess I’m a bit reluctant to get into the details of my life since some people could try to psychoanalyze me and say that something or other must be what’s causing me to be an atheist or that my position is just a phase and I will definitely grow out of it. Still, you asked nicely, so I’ll go ahead anyway.

I’ve pretty much been an atheist my entire life. I went to church when I was really young but I don’t think I ever really believed. My parents were not very religious at that point in my life and they either stopped making me go to church or stopped taking me to church. I’ve always been someone who occasionally likes to consider philosophical questions, and just because I wasn’t going to church did not mean that I was not thinking about whether I thought there was a God. Pretty much my whole life I have been a non-believer. I was never really passionate about it, but I just saw no reason to believe. About a year ago, my now fairly religious dad really started trying to get me to consider religion. So I spent a large amount of time over the past year reading up on all the arguments for and against the existence of God, listening to debates over the existence of God, and trying to find out why people believe the things that they do. Whenever I heard an interesting argument, I tried to find out how the other side would respond and how the first side would answer that response. Now certainly no one can look at every argument ever invented, but I have looked at the ones that people think make the strongest case for the existence of God. After all of this, I am now more confident that there is no good reason to believe in God. As far as my profession, I am currently a graduate student in a field completely unrelated to religion.
 
  • my husband was a cinic, atheist, revolutionary, communist. I had turned my back on the Church for 27 years, was a revolutionary and didn’t think communism was such a bad thing until I experienced a revolution etc etc…
I came back to the Church one day just like that!! I felt the need to pray for peace and that is when it began. We then built something and there were so many “coincidences” and things began to happen that coincided with my prayers that my husband was astounded. He would sometimes remind me that I had to get ready for Mass!!!

I did not have any influence. I was learning myself and he never read any of the books I read - his books were more scientific. I never prayed with him - in fact I was “shy” to pray in front of him.

What he learned through his readings made him curious and one day he came to Mass with me and the priest had revolutionary ideas and he liked that. What also attracted him was observing the people around us, their reverence, their devotion - there was the music and the homilies. So for years he accompanied me to Mass until one day a woman who was sitting nearby came up to him and asked him “When are you going to become Catholic”. It was then that I said “why not?” He went for instruction but did not become Catholic with the others - that took another 4 years. By then we had started to pray together. He never read any of my books until the end!

So sweetheart, there you have it! Recently he said that I did have an influence but it was probably my silence. St Francis used to say “Preach the Gospel always and, if necessary, use words”! Great stuff.

For me - just observing creation and the development and growth of my grandchildren brings the wonder and beauty of God before me - poetry, music, science, LOVE…these things all point to God. We are not a thing or creature or dust - we think, create, love, - friendship, community, love…

Cinette:)
Thanks for sharing that. You two seem like you’ve had a very interesting journey.
 
I am reading these postings backwards.

I think my marriage worked because we were “made for each other”. We were always crazy about each other - our children used to tease us about it! Also I was away from the Church and thought that only weak people needed the Church. God was tucked away - he was a distant thought I am sorry to say. Now I thank Him for taking care of me when I was not even thinking of Him.

There is no concrete evidence to prove or disprove the existance of God. But I believe in instinct, I believe in that which is implicit in things. I feel God, I am overshelmed by God. I feel the Love.
I guess the difference is that I don’t feel that. I don’t have any reason to believe in God based on personal experiences and I haven’t found any reason to believe based on arguments for his existence (I don’t require proof, just a reason to believe it is probably true).
I am not the kind of person who is taken in by rumours. I have never been to a fortune teller or been attracted by “seances” (I am not sure I can spell it) - don’t believe in ghosts and didn’t even believe in the devil!!! (ouch - I have spoken to people who have had experiences with attacks by the devil and am inclined to look out for these things - the devil is not a little guy with horns and a pointed tail LOL! I think evil is very real and manifests itself is many different ways)
There are certainly plenty of smart and generally rational people who believe in God. This doesn’t really give me a reason to believe in God any more than meeting a generally levelheaded Scientologist would convince me to believe in Scientology. I care more about why people believe the things that they do.
“Atheist” (I have decided to drop the evil) I think 90% of journalists are evil atheists and probably devils too! The media are responsible for a lot of the lies and evil in this world. They are dangerous and do not realise the enormous responsibility they have. but that would be for another thread.
I agree that the media if often an unreliable way of trying to find out what’s really going on, though I suspect we have different ideas about what types of things they are covering poorly.
I do believe in miracles - oh YES! I believe in the power of prayer!
And I don’t.
 
I understand that since your God is supposedly benevolent, you want to believe that anyone who seeks him will find him, but that is not my experience. I have tried sincerely praying for a sign that he exists, and got nothing.
*“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.* - Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article 65.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/65.htm
 
I guess maybe a good way to define good would be to give examples. Here are ones that come to mind:
  1. The healing of someone sick
  2. The beauty in nature and art
  3. People helping those that need help
  4. The birth of a child
  5. A big, juicy steak
  6. A cold beer
  7. A relaxing vacation
  8. Bach
  9. Ohio State beating Mchg*n in any sport! 😃
I had to go back and try to remember how this all began:
Saint Augustine asked the questions, "If there is no God, why is there so much good?
For the examples of good that you gave, I think that they are generally pretty easy to explain if there is no God. For example, some sick people will be able to be healed by medicine and some won’t. And there is certainly a great deal of beauty in the world, as well as a great deal of ugliness, which is pretty much what I’d expect if there was no God. Also, there can be an evolutionary basis for helping others (for example, it can make it more likely that you get help when you need it, or it makes it more likely that those sharing some genes with you will survive). And there can definitely be an evolutionary basis for the birth of a child (and also for making babies look so cute). I disagree about the steak though. I’m a vegetarian because I try to avoid killing things that can think and feel pain, so I don’t think this is “good”. The last few are nice but seem like they’d exist regardless of whether there is a God. Are you really implying that Ohio State is so bad that the only way they’re ever able to beat Michigan is to have divine intervention?
 
Are you really implying that Ohio State is so bad that the only way they’re ever able to beat Michigan is to have divine intervention?
If so, they’ve had it the past FIVE YEARS!!!. (I won’t get off on a Buckeye tangent on this thread…:D)
 
I had to go back and try to remember how this all began:

For the examples of good that you gave, I think that they are generally pretty easy to explain if there is no God. For example, some sick people will be able to be healed by medicine and some won’t. And there is certainly a great deal of beauty in the world, as well as a great deal of ugliness, which is pretty much what I’d expect if there was no God. Also, there can be an evolutionary basis for helping others (for example, it can make it more likely that you get help when you need it, or it makes it more likely that those sharing some genes with you will survive). And there can definitely be an evolutionary basis for the birth of a child (and also for making babies look so cute). I disagree about the steak though. I’m a vegetarian because I try to avoid killing things that can think and feel pain, so I don’t think this is “good”. The last few are nice but seem like they’d exist regardless of whether there is a God. Are you really implying that Ohio State is so bad that the only way they’re ever able to beat Michigan is to have divine intervention?
Thanks for your response.
 
I had to go back and try to remember how this all began:
I have to do that all of the time. Do you think posts #119 and #128 are accurate? I guess you can’t really say whether #128 is accurate since it is a quote. Are you familiar with Fr. John Corapi?
 
I guess the difference is that I don’t feel that. I don’t have any reason to believe in God based on personal experiences and I haven’t found any reason to believe based on arguments for his existence (I don’t require proof, just a reason to believe it is probably true).

There are certainly plenty of smart and generally rational people who believe in God. This doesn’t really give me a reason to believe in God any more than meeting a generally levelheaded Scientologist would convince me to believe in Scientology. I care more about why people believe the things that they do.

I agree that the media if often an unreliable way of trying to find out what’s really going on, though I suspect we have different ideas about what types of things they are covering poorly.

And I don’t.
You have given me food for thought and a task. Reason to believe! Hmm! I will look into that and come back to you.

Last evening I was scanning the TV and came upon a movie 20 years old which caught my attention and decided to watch. It is called Dad with Jack Lemmon. If you can get hold of the movie I recommend it. You reminded me of the character of the son which was rather special. They don’t make movies like that these days.

Ciao
Cinette:)
 
Thanks for this thorough list of fulfilled prophecies. But I still have the problems that I mentioned earlier. Which of these do you think are prophecies that have decent evidence that they were fulfilled and are unlikely to be fulfilled merely by chance? If you want to establish the New Testament as a whole or parts of the New Testament as a reliable historical account, I’d like to know why.
I am reposting this also as you hadn’t responded and may have missed it.

Obviously it would be up to you to take the information presented and in greater depth make the comparisons as you seek the truth. Making the time is something you should wish to do for the simple reason if could make a difference not only in your earthly life but in your eternal life once you learn the truth. Now, as far as whether the prophecies should be taken as chance or as actual knowledge of future events, the evidence is in the facts and depths of those prophecies. You certainly are intelligent enough to know the laws of probability and once compared to the number of prophecies and the accuracy involved, chance is not possible, in fact out of the question. As I recommended before, check into the history of Saint Justin Martyr who came from the same mind frame as you but a professional philosopher in history.

Further, events regarding Christianity and the periods of Roman rule can be compared and as much as the Roman powers that were disliked the Christians, they served to provide verification of many things in their day. History doesn’t question the existence of the Christians, Christ, the apostles or events that took place. Only the possibility of the actual miracles which have been recorded.

Further still, if one studies and knows the human natural responses of man when it comes to danger and safety, death or survival and so on, one needs to also consider the reactions and paths of the apostles and their successors not to mention the faithful. Consider the fear and reaction of the Apostles when Jesus was taken into custody, brutally tortured and hung on the cross as He was to die such a horrid death. These things are historic so they are not in question even by non-partial historians. The Apostles reacted as anyone else would either then or today in that they believed their teacher and leader and Savior had been murdered and the same was probable for them. Remember He was their savior and had been murdered so to them at that time there was no hope whatsoever. They all took off abandoning Jesus to hide for their lives. Now, the big one (question), what possible occurrence could change these men fearful of a similar death as Jesus into men who would turn completely opposite in nature and set out publicly proclaiming His word if not something that would reaffirm their belief that He was the savior after all and there was more than what we know as this worldly life? It would have to be supernatural in nature because the only thing to change such fear in men into the absolute of an eventual confrontation leading to such horrid death would be for Christ’s returning to life as history refers and confirming His teaching including such eternal life. The apostles faced and suffered the deaths of beheadings, crucifixions, stoning and whippings to the point of bleeding to death, being torn apart by animals for the entertainment of others and more. Each apostle faced these things at different times and in different places so you can’t say they all were caught at once and didn’t have the opportunity to change their minds. They absolutely knew what eventually could and for most would happen but they remained steadfast in their teachings to death. Only the realization of a continued eternal life as promised could keep such devotion firm. The word kept by the master teacher to His students. Many had been martyred in the name of Christ. And the numerous prophecies that we refer to as inspired word of God spanned more than 5000 years before his birth to such detail you could never provide support to claim chance even remotely. And you know what I am saying to you. These things aren’t even half of all that exists in the name of God.

A good researcher or investigator doesn’t consider only one piece of evidence to prosecute a subject, he gathers all the evidence to make the case. You my unknowing brother will get no where only looking at each piece solely to itself. You need to bring it all together and see what you learn.
 
I guess I’m a bit reluctant to get into the details of my life since some people could try to psychoanalyze me and say that something or other must be what’s causing me to be an atheist or that my position is just a phase and I will definitely grow out of it. Still, you asked nicely, so I’ll go ahead anyway.

I’ve pretty much been an atheist my entire life. I went to church when I was really young but I don’t think I ever really believed. My parents were not very religious at that point in my life and they either stopped making me go to church or stopped taking me to church. I’ve always been someone who occasionally likes to consider philosophical questions, and just because I wasn’t going to church did not mean that I was not thinking about whether I thought there was a God. Pretty much my whole life I have been a non-believer. I was never really passionate about it, but I just saw no reason to believe. About a year ago, my now fairly religious dad really started trying to get me to consider religion. So I spent a large amount of time over the past year reading up on all the arguments for and against the existence of God, listening to debates over the existence of God, and trying to find out why people believe the things that they do. Whenever I heard an interesting argument, I tried to find out how the other side would respond and how the first side would answer that response. Now certainly no one can look at every argument ever invented, but I have looked at the ones that people think make the strongest case for the existence of God. After all of this, I am now more confident that there is no good reason to believe in God. As far as my profession, I am currently a graduate student in a field completely unrelated to religion.
Thank you for your honesty. No disrespect to you, but you are obviously one who requires a physical person to appear before you in order to believe because it is obvious you have no real support not to believe other than you are dependant on your limited senses. Unfortunately, what you are requiring already happened 2000 years ago for all those who couldn’t grasp it then. Jesus did appear in person and look at what we did to Him because we wouldn’t believe. And if He did appear once again for the sake of those who can’t grasp it just to show us He was real and truly loved us do you think the reaction of the people would have different results? No, the majority would once again persecute Him just as we persecute and martyr many who believe in Him today. So when He returns this time, for those who refuse to truly seek the Truth (which if one does He or She will believe) He will serve just response. What you want He did. That is fact. You weren’t there but the History and nature of man certainly offers the proof. If you haven’t found it, you haven’t looked deeply enough.
 
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