Dishonest Apologetics

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Jesus many times claims to be someone quite special. In Mark 2:28, Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10). He also claims to be greater than the Prophet Jonah (Matt 12:41), King Solomon (Matt 12:42) and even the Temple (Matt 12:6). According to Mark 2:1-12, Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is “humble in heart.” [Matt 11:29]
Jesus, while arguing with the scribes, makes an interesting statement about Himself and Abraham:

Jesus answered them: “I solemnly declare it: before Abraham came to be, I AM.” At that they picked up rocks to throw at Jesus… [John 8:58-59; NAB]

Jesus claims to have existed also before Abraham - something impossible for a mere human. Moreover the statement sounds grammatically awkward due to tense disagreement. It would sound better if He had said “I WAS” instead of “I AM.” The present tense implies Christ’s eternal existence as God.
Even though Jesus does not explicitly call Himself “God”, He does refer to Himself with a form of God’s name. The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses:

God replied, “I AM WHO AM.” Then He added, “This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.” [Exodus 3:14; NAB]

God’s name - YHWH (Yahweh) - translates as “I AM WHO AM” or simply “I AM.” In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God’s name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18).
Other people in the Gospels also bear witness to His divinity. Even before His birth, He is referred to as Lord. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth greets the pregnant Mary:

“But who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” [Luke 1:43; NAB]

Elizabeth refers to Mary as “the mother of my Lord.” Elsewhere in Luke 1, the title “Lord” refers to God, e.g. “an angel of the Lord” [Luke 1:11]. It should be noted that the name YHWH, being too sacred, could not be uttered, so the Hebrews said “Lord” instead. This passage in Luke suggests that Jesus was God while in the womb of Mary. Also when Jesus was an infant, the wise men worshipped Him according to Matthew 2:11. If the Christ Child were not divine, then this Gospel passage would present idolatry in a positive light. Later Jesus even allows people to worship-adore Him, as in John 9: 38. Finally after the Resurrection, Thomas greets Jesus as “My Lord and my God.” [John 20:28; cf. Ps 35:23] Jesus confirms this greeting without any hesitation, objection or correction. As a teacher Jesus would be obliged to correct an error, especially a blasphemous error.
regarding jesus claiming to be the son of god,

(1) DID he proclaim himself this or was this an accretion to his story added in later decades?
(2) Did the phrase “Son of God” mean to a Jew and Jewish audience then what you seem to think it means - ie God in human form?

The answer to (1) is “We really don’t know”.
The answer to (2) is “No, it didn’t”.

Even if we assume that Jesus did claim to be “the Son of God”, all the evidence indicates that this title, along with “Son of Man”, simply meant “the Messiah” and not “God in human form”. That latter interpretation didn’t arise until after the Jesus Sect had begun to well and truly drift from its Jewish roots and would have been incomprehensible and actually abhorrent to Jesus and his first followers.
 
regarding jesus claiming to be the son of god,

(1) DID he proclaim himself this or was this an accretion to his story added in later decades?
(2) Did the phrase “Son of God” mean to a Jew and Jewish audience then what you seem to think it means - ie God in human form?

The answer to (1) is “We really don’t know”.
The answer to (2) is “No, it didn’t”.

Even if we assume that Jesus did claim to be “the Son of God”, all the evidence indicates that this title, along with “Son of Man”, simply meant “the Messiah” and not “God in human form”. That latter interpretation didn’t arise until after the Jesus Sect had begun to well and truly drift from its Jewish roots and would have been incomprehensible and actually abhorrent to Jesus and his first followers.
In one of the Gospel’s book, the Gospel of John the Apostle, there were people who did not believe that Jesus Christ was God. In John 10: 33 it says “ We do not want to stone you because of any good deeds, but because of your blasphemy! You are only a man, but you are trying to make yourself God! “

Let’s verify the passages of scriptures if Jesus Christ had spoken explicitly or implicitly that He is God.
In Rev. 21: 7 it says “ Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. “
Who spoke these words? Was it the God the Father or Jesus Christ? Because in Rev. 3: 21 it says “ To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne, just as I have been victorious and now sit by my Father on His throne. “
Before Rev. 21: 7 was quoted above, verse 6 says And he said, “ It is done! I am the first and the last , the beginning and the end…”]. Who spoke these words? Let’s find out! In Rev 22: 12 – 13 it says “ Listen!” says Jesus, “ I am coming soon! I will bring my rewards with me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”]

It is now clear that Jesus Christ was the one who spoke in Rev. 21: 7. Therefore, He explicitly said that He is God!

Here is another scriptural passage spoken by Jesus Christ. In John 13: 13 it says “ You call me Teacher and Lord, and it is right that you do so, because that is what I am. “
Let us see what is the testimony of God the Father about His son. In Heb. 1; 8 it says “ About the Son, however, God said: ‘Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever!..” and in verse 10, it says “ He also said, ‘ You, Lord, in the beginning created the earth, and with your own hands you made the heavens.’ “
So, the word “ Lord “ spoken by Jesus Christ in John 13: 13 means none other but the Lord God, the creator. In Psalms 118: 27 it says “ The Lord is God…”
 
Aside from the History of the Church which was founded by the very Apostles who accompanied Jesus and witnessed His ministry, here is additional information to follow;
Even though early secular reports on Jesus may have been rare, there are still a few surviving references to Him. Not too surprisingly, the earliest non-Christian reports were made by the Jews. Flavius Josephus, who lived until 98 A.D., was a romanized Jewish historian. He wrote books on Jewish history for the Roman people. In his book, Jewish Antiquities, he made references to Jesus. In one reference he wrote:

About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Even though several different forms of this particular text have survived through the twenty centuries, they all agree with the above cited version. This version is considered to be the closest to the original - the least suspected of Christian text-tampering. Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as “the brother of Jesus who was called Christ.” It should be noted that the past tense in the clause, “Jesus who was called Christ,” argues against Christian text-tampering since a Christian would prefer to write instead, “Jesus who is called Christ.”
Another Jewish source, the Talmud, makes several historical references to Jesus. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the Talmud is "the collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism." Although not explicitly referred to by name, later rabbis identify the person as Jesus. These references to Jesus are neither sympathetic to Him or His Church. Also these writings were preserved through the centuries by Jews, so Christians cannot be accused of tampering with the text.
The Talmud makes note of Jesus’ miracles. No attempt is made to deny them, but it ascribes them to magical arts from Egypt. Also His crucifixion is dated as “on the eve of the Feast of the Passover” in agreement with the Gospel (Luke 22:1ff; John 19:31ff). Similar again to the Gospel (Matt. 27:51), the Talmud records the earthquake and the tearing in two of the Temple curtain during the time of Jesus’ death. Josephus in his book, The Jewish War, also confirmed these events.
By the beginning of the 2nd century, Romans were writing about Christians and Jesus. Pliny the Younger, proconsul in Asia Minor, in 111 A.D. wrote to Emperor Trajan in a letter:

…it was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turns a form of words to Christ as a god; and that they bound themselves with an oath, not for any crime, but not to commit theft or robbery, or adultery, not to break their word, and not to deny a deposit when demanded. After this was done, their custom was to depart, and meet again to take food… [Pliny, Epistle 97]

Special attention should be made to the phrase, “to Christ as a god,” an early secular witness to the belief in Christ’s divinity (John 20:28; Phil. 2:6). Also it is interesting to compare this passage with Acts 20:7-11, a biblical account of an early Christian Sunday celebration.
continued at;

users.binary.net/polycarp/jesus.html
I have spent some time looking into these sources in the past, but I probably should examine them more closely at some point. I do know that several of these sources have things about them that can lead us to question their reliability. However, even if I assume that they are all reliable, why would it matter? None of them contradict what I see as the most likely explanation. I think some of the apostles may indeed have believed that Jesus appeared to them based on dreams or visions.
 
I have spent some time looking into these sources in the past, but I probably should examine them more closely at some point. I do know that several of these sources have things about them that can lead us to question their reliability. However, even if I assume that they are all reliable, why would it matter? None of them contradict what I see as the most likely explanation. I think some of the apostles may indeed have believed that Jesus appeared to them based on dreams or visions.
Ah, but you see, there have been too many conditions satisfied, circumstances of human nature and reaction and individual documentations, both partial and non-partial sources to support there being historic and reliable to reason. Additionally, the Apostles could not have all had such dreams or visions at the same time. Those who were in the room together when Thomas was not present and on another occasion, those all together when Thomas was present. Thomas did not believe until our Lord physically confronted him. Others in their journey witnessed and communicated with Him, yet others who were alone and spoke with Him. At yet another time, groups such as the 500 others together witnessed Him also. These things if fraudulent would have been written historically as the scam that some tried to pull off. Others during those times would have known it to be false and quickly made a mockery of it all. Further, No man places himself in a position to die the horrid torturous deaths these men did for something they only wanted others to believe but did not know for truth themselves.
 
This is just my understanding. God has no begining and end so its not possible for someone to give His life meaning and purpose. In a relativistic society a persons worth, meaning, and purpose comes from the people around him. But in God we are all made equal and since He is the one who created us, He is the one who truly knows our purpose and thus give meaning in our life. If the purpose of our life is not from God then we are living a lie. If I am to follow that once by accident/chance the laws of nature formulated itself, and by accident/chance the forces of nature(electromagnetic, gravity, ect) were united in a singularity, and by accident/chance it became unstable and caused the big bang, and by accident/chance formed the stars, galaxies, and other heavenly bodies, and by accident/chance planet earth was formed, and by accident/chance chemicals mix to form water, and by accident/chance the biological soup was formed or by accident/chance some rock from Mars with bacteria landed on earth, and by accident/chance some of the organisms developed into multi celled organisms, and by accident/chance some of the multi celled organisms develop into plants, and by accident/chance the other multi celled organisms turned into animals, insects, and etc, and by accident/chance the dino’s had to die, and by accident/chance humans walk the earth. How lucky is the planet earth for having so much accidents considering other larger planets orbit the sun. If organisms evolve to adopt to a particular environment then no planet is that hostile. I am no scientist, philo, engineer or what so ever but I must say chance/accident does a better job than any of our great minds. Imagine engineers are copying the movement of animals to their robots and the scientist are still understanding the laws of nature. A simple act of accident/chance made everything we see possible without having to copy it from somewere or even study the laws of nature. Even if everything is a product of billions of years of accident/chance yet things came to be without being interfered by any intelligence higher or lower than man. Our great minds who claims God is not real is outdone by an accident/chance. If my existence is nothing more than a cosmic accident/chance then I do not have a purpose but only what is created by my imagination or of others. Like a man standing under a tree and a leaf lands on his head, it has no meaning and no purpose.

God has revealed to us through Adam and Eve, the Prophets, Jesus, Bible, Priest, etc. in Him alone can we find our true purpose. He is a God of love and justice and we are created in His image and likeness. Thus we are to follow His teachings and commandments of Love. God wants to replicate Himself and he wants us to be like Jesus. By being like Jesus we become one with Jesus and since Jesus and God are one we become one with God. The Father wants to share His kingdom of Joy and of no end with us.

Im now sleepy 🙂 God and His teachings are the same in the Old and New Testament. In the Old Testament we can read killings its a way that justice is achieved for the sins people made. Since God created time He knows what will happen to those people who experienced His wrath had they continued live. Most of the time God gave several warnings before showing His wrath. After all the things He has given us we continue to sin and don’t recognize Him as our God. God gave Adam and Eve everything and all God asked is not to eat the fruit of good and evil. Its like I give my child good education, car, and a house and all I ask is he do good in his studies but instead he waste his life with drugs. In the New Testament God Himself in the form of Jesus paid the price for our sins to acheive justice. In the end the choice is with the person if he wants to live forever and fulfill his purpose or not because it is boring to live forever.:cool:
 
Ah, but you see, there have been too many conditions satisfied, circumstances of human nature and reaction and individual documentations, both partial and non-partial sources to support there being historic and reliable to reason. Additionally, the Apostles could not have all had such dreams or visions at the same time. Those who were in the room together when Thomas was not present and on another occasion, those all together when Thomas was present. Thomas did not believe until our Lord physically confronted him. Others in their journey witnessed and communicated with Him, yet others who were alone and spoke with Him. At yet another time, groups such as the 500 others together witnessed Him also. These things if fraudulent would have been written historically as the scam that some tried to pull off. Others during those times would have known it to be false and quickly made a mockery of it all. Further, No man places himself in a position to die the horrid torturous deaths these men did for something they only wanted others to believe but did not know for truth themselves.
Well, obviously if you assume everything in the Bible is literal truth, then the dream/vision hypothesis does not work. I think that some of the disciples had dreams or visions, but not necessarily all of them, and not at the same time. I think that based on these experiences, they firmly believed that Jesus had appeared to them. As the story was told again and again, it may have been expanded upon and somewhat exaggerated. I think that the gospels are consistent with such an account, since later gospels show evidence of possible embellishment. Mark’s account had a small group of women seeing Jesus resurrected and then not telling anyone about it. John tells a much more vivid account of the resurrection.

Why would the statement that Jesus appeared to 500 be written off if it were false? It does not identify these 500, so there would be no way to show the story to be false. How would someone know it to be false unless they interviewed every single person in the area and all of them said it was false? And if you did that, why would anyone take your word for it? So there was no real way to prove to people that that part of the story was false. I think that some of the apostles believed that the dreams or visions they had of Jesus were real appearances. People often believe things like this. For example, people sometimes think that a dead relative came back to tell them something. So I don’t find it surprising that some of the apostles would see them as real appearances. I also don’t think it’s uncommon for people who would be willing to fight and die for a cause to sometimes exaggerate things in order to win people over to their side. For example, there were firm believers in communism or Nazism who were willing to lay down their lives for their cause (note: I’m not trying to say that Catholicism is evil). However, some of them were willing to exaggerate things a little when speaking to the general public. So I think my alternative hypothesis is perfectly plausible. And I think that if we look at these two options objectively: a man miraculously rising from the dead or a legend developing out of a few dreams and visions, the latter seems more plausible. I guess for those who grow up accepting the resurrection, it does not seem as extremely unlikely as it does to me. But if you do not start from the assumption that Christianity is true, my hypothesis, or many others like it, seem more likely than that an unprecedented miracle took place.
 
regarding jesus claiming to be the son of god,

(1) DID he proclaim himself this or was this an accretion to his story added in later decades?
(2) Did the phrase “Son of God” mean to a Jew and Jewish audience then what you seem to think it means - ie God in human form?

The answer to (1) is “We really don’t know”.
The answer to (2) is “No, it didn’t”.

Even if we assume that Jesus did claim to be “the Son of God”, all the evidence indicates that this title, along with “Son of Man”, simply meant “the Messiah” and not “God in human form”. That latter interpretation didn’t arise until after the Jesus Sect had begun to well and truly drift from its Jewish roots and would have been incomprehensible and actually abhorrent to Jesus and his first followers.
John 10:33
The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Jews very much understood Jesus to be claiming to be God himself.

michel
 
This is just my understanding. God has no begining and end so its not possible for someone to give His life meaning and purpose.
What I was trying to say is that you earlier had basically said that without a superior being to give our lives meaning and purpose, our lives are really just worthless and no different than a rock. But the same logic would apply to God, and I doubt you would see him as worthless and no different than a rock.
In a relativistic society a persons worth, meaning, and purpose comes from the people around him. But in God we are all made equal and since He is the one who created us, He is the one who truly knows our purpose and thus give meaning in our life.
I guess what I don’t understand is in what sense the value and purpose God supposedly gives us is real. I mean if I build a computer, I create it for a purpose, and I value it. But does this make the computer’s “life” valuable and purposeful in the same way that ours are?
If the purpose of our life is not from God then we are living a lie. If I am to follow that once by accident/chance the laws of nature formulated itself, and by accident/chance the forces of nature(electromagnetic, gravity, ect) were united in a singularity, and by accident/chance it became unstable and caused the big bang, and by accident/chance formed the stars, galaxies, and other heavenly bodies, and by accident/chance planet earth was formed, and by accident/chance chemicals mix to form water, and by accident/chance the biological soup was formed or by accident/chance some rock from Mars with bacteria landed on earth, and by accident/chance some of the organisms developed into multi celled organisms, and by accident/chance some of the multi celled organisms develop into plants, and by accident/chance the other multi celled organisms turned into animals, insects, and etc, and by accident/chance the dino’s had to die, and by accident/chance humans walk the earth. How lucky is the planet earth for having so much accidents considering other larger planets orbit the sun.
Well, I differ somewhat in what I think took place. For example, I do not think that a rock from Mars seeded life on earth. However, one problem with your list of accidents is that it assumes we were the ultimate goal. If life evolves for long enough, there’s probably a good chance that some intelligent being will result. Now if it was all run over again, you may have ended up with different such beings (not humans). But whenever you ran it, these beings might each have looked at their evolutionary past and thought, “Wow, what an incredible string of coincidences it took for our species to even exist. I must have been designed.”
If organisms evolve to adopt to a particular environment then no planet is that hostile. I am no scientist, philo, engineer or what so ever but I must say chance/accident does a better job than any of our great minds. Imagine engineers are copying the movement of animals to their robots and the scientist are still understanding the laws of nature. A simple act of accident/chance made everything we see possible without having to copy it from somewere or even study the laws of nature. Even if everything is a product of billions of years of accident/chance yet things came to be without being interfered by any intelligence higher or lower than man. Our great minds who claims God is not real is outdone by an accident/chance. If my existence is nothing more than a cosmic accident/chance then I do not have a purpose but only what is created by my imagination or of others. Like a man standing under a tree and a leaf lands on his head, it has no meaning and no purpose.
Well evolution is more than just chance. Natural selection ensures that only the better adapted creatures survive. After millions of generations, you get something that seems to fit its environment pretty well.
God has revealed to us through Adam and Eve, the Prophets, Jesus, Bible, Priest, etc. in Him alone can we find our true purpose. He is a God of love and justice and we are created in His image and likeness. Thus we are to follow His teachings and commandments of Love. God wants to replicate Himself and he wants us to be like Jesus. By being like Jesus we become one with Jesus and since Jesus and God are one we become one with God. The Father wants to share His kingdom of Joy and of no end with us.
I just don’t think that there’s much evidence that God exists and did reveal himself. Muslims might tell you that God revealed himself through Muhammad, but I doubt you believe that.
 
Did jesus proclaim himself this or was this an accretion to his story added in later decades?

How do you know?
I appeal to authority.
Specifically … I trust the teaching authority of the church and the scripture it compiled.
Not blindly, mind you, but I don’t require the evidence that you do.
Aside from the bible, we have the teaching witness (in writing) from Christians in every century since.
For me, personally, the evidence is strong enough that the bible is true and that the teaching authority of the church is to be trusted.

michel
 
I don’t think having a statistics on how many prayers are answered is a valid way to prove God is real. He is not some dj that plays the song we requested. In some instances God gives better things than what has been asked and perhaps it takes time. And doing such an experiment is like being the devil who tempted Jesus to jump and be saved by His Angels to prove He is the Son of God. It is in the Lord’s prayer that God’s will be done. All my prayers were answered and I can see God is always with me.

Society has been spending more than several trillions of $ to prove a theory or discover something in the name of science. Some scientist don’t live to see their theory proven correct. I am not saying it is a bad thing for it help man understand nature better. My point is God is only asking an average of 1-2hrs/day of our time to know Him and we have a choice not to donate money to the Church. I bet no one in this world is 100% efficient in using their time.
 
I don’t think having a statistics on how many prayers are answered is a valid way to prove God is real.
If studies showed that those receiving prayers from other religions recovered at the same rate as those not receiving prayers, but those receiving Catholic prayers recovered far faster, I would consider that extremely strong evidence that God exists.
He is not some dj that plays the song we requested. In some instances God gives better things than what has been asked and perhaps it takes time. And doing such an experiment is like being the devil who tempted Jesus to jump and be saved by His Angels to prove He is the Son of God. It is in the Lord’s prayer that God’s will be done.
I disagree; I think that if prayer worked, we would expect to see some kind of impact. However, I don’t think the studies show that prayer definitely does not work. One possibility is that it is incredibly rare that God answers prayers, too small to show up in studies. Another possibility is that he wants to make sure there is never good evidence that he exists. To prevent there from being evidence that he exists, he could make sure to never answer prayers if it was part of a survey, and never answer big prayers (like regenerating a limb) that would make his existence too obvious. But I don’t see why he would care about hiding himself. People would still have the free will to reject him (for example, there are people who think he exists but reject him because they are angry with him). But by making himself known, a much greater number of people would probably enter a relationship with him. I know I would become Catholic if studies showed that Catholic prayer worked. So I actually think this is some (though not conclusive) evidence against God’s existence.
All my prayers were answered and I can see God is always with me.
While I do not think a single prayer being answered is evidence that God exists, I do think that a huge number of answered prayers can be evidence for God. But I think that most people merely count the hits and ignore the misses. If someone prays for something good to happen and it happens, that’s evidence to them that God answered their prayer. However, if the good thing does not happen, that person would merely say that God must think the request isn’t reasonable or the time isn’t right. So even though no prayers are actually being answered, people remember all the good things that happened to them and see them as proof that God exists. At least that’s my opinion on prayer.
Society has been spending more than several trillions of $ to prove a theory or discover something in the name of science. Some scientist don’t live to see their theory proven correct. I am not saying it is a bad thing for it help man understand nature better. My point is God is only asking an average of 1-2hrs/day of our time to know Him and we have a choice not to donate money to the Church. I bet no one in this world is 100% efficient in using their time.
I wasn’t trying to say that I thought God was asking for an unreasonable amount of our time. I was saying that I don’t think he exists and so it makes more sense to find a better way to spend my time. Although some atheists may enjoy going to church, I think most have other things that they would rather do instead. For all I know, it could be possible that there’s a god that will give us infinite happiness if we stay completely still for twenty minutes every day. But I don’t stay still, because I think the chance of that being the case is so incredibly low that it’s not worth my time. My personal belief is that the chance of Christianity being correct is so low that it would also not be worth my time (and besides, I could not force myself to believe in it even if I wanted to).
 
Trust me I know what you are saying and your point that value can come from our self and other people and life is valuable because it does not last forever. Correct me if im wrong.

-If man and everything else in the universe is a product of the big bang which is an event with no purpose, then man has no real purpose. Unlike when God said He will create the universe for man, then the universe has a purpose and meaning. When God said He created man in His image and likeness, His purpose is to replicate Himself so that we may join Him in His Kingdom. From what I understand a purpose is how we want things to end and can serve as a guide in making our choices. God is not a product of an event without a purpose such as the big bang unlike marsian rock and humans which is a product of the big bang which has no purpose. If some come up with a God to feel comfortable about death then I guess its the same for someone born without a purpose and come up with one to make their life meaningful and with a purpose.

-If man is gone, animals and the rest of the world will continue to live and exist. If Marsian rock is gone, everything will continue to go on. God is valuable because He is the source of all life. If God is gone their will be no life. Life is valuable and meaningful because it is a gift to us from God. At home we may be very valuable but when we leave home we may have no value to others. In the same way we have no value to anything else outside our planet. If nuclear bombs had to fall all over the country I bet only leaders and people considered smart are allowed to enter the bomb shelter. Im trying to demonstrate how our value can differ with the people at home and with the world outside the house. Then we can come up with a value for ourself and believe it is our true value. We are just a tiny dot in this big universe.

If God is not real then coming up with a purpose and meaning in life and giving ourself a value is not more real than coming up with a God. A bulb is always a bulb no matter to whom you show it or where you bring it making it real. I guess we just have different way of looking at things. I look at our purpose, meaning and value beyond our home, family, friends, society, planet, universe and etc. Its your choice if you limit your standards on your purpose, meaning, and value to your friends, family, society and self and continue to believe that the truth to our being is limited within our planet. But the truth remains we are a part of a bigger universe.

If country A decided to make and fire a rocket for the purpose of sending communication satellites, but countries B, C, D can say the rocket is for sending nuclear weapons, sending spy satellites and etc. But the true purpose still remains which is for sending communication satellites. Our true purpose is the purpose God had in creating us. People can give you several purpose in life but the truth is what the Creator has given us. God is the source of life and the life we have is a gift from Him. If man and universe is a product of an event with no purpose the big bang, then same can be said to us and our works. To deny God is to deny our true purpose in life and the great things God has promised us. Since our life is from God and the computer is not then we are more valuable than the computer.

My list of accidents was just a sample, I do not know if you believe we come from biological soup or from some marsian rock with bacteria. I am not assuming we are the ultimate goal but its because I don’t know what other very significant creature came after man, I guess we can add H1N1 virus on the last part of my list. Dino’s lived longer than us but no intelligent being like us existed during their time, even reptiles and isects had been around longer than us.

A choice is made by someone with intelligence, someone must have come up with the laws of nature or programed how it makes choices. From what I understand natural selection only selects creatures but does not explain how creatures develop features to adopt in a certain environment. Perhaps its an accident/chance that mutations occur from which nature makes its selection from. Several bacterias have been around since the time of the Dino’s and some even live in the harshest of environments. Natural selection does not explain why this single organism want to be plant life 1st then become animals. A lot of single organisms have well adopted to their environment then it must have been by accident/chance that the 1st organisms evolve into something.

If you run things all over then another creature will come up then things are just by chance just like throwing several dice and come up with different combinations. However things are under the law of nature then things should come up the same if you run things all over.
I just don’t think that there’s much evidence that God exists and did reveal himself. Muslims might tell you that God revealed himself through Muhammad, but I doubt you believe that.
Read the bible, understand the bible, live the life God wanted you to live with an open heart then you will see God has always revealed Himself to you. The world is full of lies like God is a myth, Jesus is a Myth, Mosses used God for his own agenda, Jesus had a wife and children, God is evil and Satan is good, The God of the New Testament is different from the Old Testament, Jesus resurection is a myth and many more. All this lies brings us away from God to the point some people no longer believe in God. Christian and Muslim God are the same for both are the God of Moses, Christians and Muslims just have a different interpretation about the message of God. I don’t have any problem believing God revealed himself through Muhammad same as God revealing Himself through the priest everyday in mass.

I think I have already typed so much for this thread.
 
Trust me I know what you are saying and your point that value can come from our self and other people and life is valuable because it does not last forever. Correct me if im wrong.
No, you got it pretty much right.
-If man and everything else in the universe is a product of the big bang which is an event with no purpose, then man has no real purpose.
I disagree. Even if the beginning of something is without purpose, I don’t think everything that follows must be purposeless. If there is no divine being then I agree that there is no divine purpose, but I don’t see why I can’t have purpose.
Unlike when God said He will create the universe for man, then the universe has a purpose and meaning. When God said He created man in His image and likeness, His purpose is to replicate Himself so that we may join Him in His Kingdom. From what I understand a purpose is how we want things to end and can serve as a guide in making our choices. God is not a product of an event without a purpose such as the big bang unlike marsian rock and humans which is a product of the big bang which has no purpose.
But God is also not the product of a purposeful event. So what is God’s purpose, and who gave it to him?
-If man is gone, animals and the rest of the world will continue to live and exist. If Marsian rock is gone, everything will continue to go on. God is valuable because He is the source of all life. If God is gone their will be no life. Life is valuable and meaningful because it is a gift to us from God. At home we may be very valuable but when we leave home we may have no value to others. In the same way we have no value to anything else outside our planet. If nuclear bombs had to fall all over the country I bet only leaders and people considered smart are allowed to enter the bomb shelter. Im trying to demonstrate how our value can differ with the people at home and with the world outside the house. Then we can come up with a value for ourself and believe it is our true value. We are just a tiny dot in this big universe.
But this is circular. You are saying our lives have value because of God and God has value because of us. If you accept this, then why won’t you accept that, in addition to other reasons, a man’s life is valuable because of his wife, and a wife’s life is valuable because of her husband.
If God is not real then coming up with a purpose and meaning in life and giving ourself a value is not more real than coming up with a God.
Well I can say that I value happiness and bringing happiness to others. That can be my purpose in life. Now the universe itself might not see me as valuable, but I value my life. For example, to the universe as a whole, a $100 bill is just a collection of atoms. Yet the bill still has value to me. This value is very real. The same is true for my life.
A bulb is always a bulb no matter to whom you show it or where you bring it making it real. I guess we just have different way of looking at things. I look at our purpose, meaning and value beyond our home, family, friends, society, planet, universe and etc. Its your choice if you limit your standards on your purpose, meaning, and value to your friends, family, society and self and continue to believe that the truth to our being is limited within our planet. But the truth remains we are a part of a bigger universe.
We are part of a bigger universe, though a very small part of it. I see purpose, meaning, and value where it exists. I do not ask what a $100 bill means to the universe, since I don’t think that’s a useful question. I focus on situations in which terms like ‘meaning’ have meaning. 😉
 
If country A decided to make and fire a rocket for the purpose of sending communication satellites, but countries B, C, D can say the rocket is for sending nuclear weapons, sending spy satellites and etc. But the true purpose still remains which is for sending communication satellites. Our true purpose is the purpose God had in creating us. People can give you several purpose in life but the truth is what the Creator has given us. God is the source of life and the life we have is a gift from Him. If man and universe is a product of an event with no purpose the big bang, then same can be said to us and our works. To deny God is to deny our true purpose in life and the great things God has promised us. Since our life is from God and the computer is not then we are more valuable than the computer.
Well, I think a lot of people would say that sense God created everything, even the computer is from God. But it’s irrelevant. Consider an oxygen atom. This is something that God supposedly created for us to breath (in addition to other purposes). Although our purpose might be more complicated, I don’t see how our lives would have any more meaning than an oxygen atom based on what you’re saying.
A choice is made by someone with intelligence, someone must have come up with the laws of nature or programed how it makes choices.
I disagree. I think that the natural laws may have come about by chance, or some of them may have been necessary (as seems to be the case with some logical absolutes: for example, I think that even without God, something could not be both itself and not itself at the same time).
From what I understand natural selection only selects creatures but does not explain how creatures develop features to adopt in a certain environment. Perhaps its an accident/chance that mutations occur from which nature makes its selection from. Several bacterias have been around since the time of the Dino’s and some even live in the harshest of environments. Natural selection does not explain why this single organism want to be plant life 1st then become animals. A lot of single organisms have well adopted to their environment then it must have been by accident/chance that the 1st organisms evolve into something.
If a set of creatures is already well adapted to its environment, then major change is usually the result of an environmental change. For example, if an Ice Age hits, a lot of the older creatures die out and new ones evolve. If two continents move together and there are similar animals on each, an animal from one continent that is slightly better adapted could cause the less well adapted creature from the other continent to go extinct.
If you run things all over then another creature will come up then things are just by chance just like throwing several dice and come up with different combinations. However things are under the law of nature then things should come up the same if you run things all over.
Based on quantum physics, there does appear to be randomness, so things would play out differently. However, if we ever found that quantum physics was wrong and there was no randomness, we would expect it to play out the same way.
Read the bible, understand the bible, live the life God wanted you to live with an open heart then you will see God has always revealed Himself to you. The world is full of lies like God is a myth, Jesus is a Myth, Mosses used God for his own agenda, Jesus had a wife and children, God is evil and Satan is good, The God of the New Testament is different from the Old Testament, Jesus resurection is a myth and many more. All this lies brings us away from God to the point some people no longer believe in God. Christian and Muslim God are the same for both are the God of Moses, Christians and Muslims just have a different interpretation about the message of God. I don’t have any problem believing God revealed himself through Muhammad same as God revealing Himself through the priest everyday in mass.
I do not think that reading the Bible itself is a good way of understanding reality unless you accept it as true. I do not have reason to think it is true. So the Bible does not convince me that God exists, just like the Harry Potter books do not convince me that Hogwarts exists. Well there are some religions (besides Islam) that you would probably say have different gods. And I agree with you that the world is full of lies. The trick is trying to figure out which things are true and which ones aren’t. Based on what I know, it seems incredibly unlikely that Christianity is true.
I think I have already typed so much for this thread.
You have. Although I think our conversation has been interesting, you don’t need to keep responding if you don’t want to. In either case, I wish you well.
 
Hi Atheist!

Have you read the book “Answering the New Atheism” by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker??

I’ve had quite a time these last few days. My son and his wife and two of their sons were attacked at gunpoint, bound and robbed in their home by three gunmen on Friday. My husband and I pray for all our children and grandchildren daily.

The robbers took a laptop, cameras, iphone, mobile, speakers but left the motor vehicles which were locked in the garage (my sons wallet and laptop were also in his car). They took the youngest son “hostage” around the house as they ransacked. Little Jonathan turned 9 in April and is a little toughie rugby player and a stand up comic who can think on his feet and is a great entertainer. The family is doing well but we just can’t get this out of our minds!

Atheist - pray for us all please!

Cinette:)
 
Hi Atheist!

Have you read the book “Answering the New Atheism” by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker??
No, I haven’t read it yet. But I have read a couple other critiques of the new atheists. I actually do agree with a lot of criticisms of the new atheist writers and I think a lot of the arguments they use are bad. I guess that means I’m a young old atheist. 🙂 But I’ve found that the books that criticize the new atheists usually don’t deal with some of the biggest problems I have with Christianity. So maybe I’ll read it at some point, but right now I’m more interested in looking at the more advanced philosophical arguments for Christianity. I’m especially looking forward to reading The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology because I hear it presents all the best current arguments for Christianity. Given the price, I’ll probably try to borrow it from the library though. I don’t expect to be convinced by it, but at least it should challenge me to think more deeply about what I believe and why.
I’ve had quite a time these last few days. My son and his wife and two of their sons were attacked at gunpoint, bound and robbed in their home by three gunmen on Friday. My husband and I pray for all our children and grandchildren daily.

The robbers took a laptop, cameras, iphone, mobile, speakers but left the motor vehicles which were locked in the garage (my sons wallet and laptop were also in his car). They took the youngest son “hostage” around the house as they ransacked. Little Jonathan turned 9 in April and is a little toughie rugby player and a stand up comic who can think on his feet and is a great entertainer. The family is doing well but we just can’t get this out of our minds!

Atheist - pray for us all please!

Cinette:)
That’s horrible. I can’t imagine what it must have been like for them to go through that. I really hope that none of them are emotionally scarred by it and I hope Jonathan doesn’t lose his sense of humor.

I guess as an atheist I’m not supposed to do this, but I will pray for you. Though don’t expect me to start believing in God if things get better.

I wish you and your family all the best.
 
No, I haven’t read it yet. But I have read a couple other critiques of the new atheists. I actually do agree with a lot of criticisms of the new atheist writers and I think a lot of the arguments they use are bad. I guess that means I’m a young old atheist. 🙂 But I’ve found that the books that criticize the new atheists usually don’t deal with some of the biggest problems I have with Christianity. So maybe I’ll read it at some point, but right now I’m more interested in looking at the more advanced philosophical arguments for Christianity. I’m especially looking forward to reading The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology because I hear it presents all the best current arguments for Christianity. Given the price, I’ll probably try to borrow it from the library though. I don’t expect to be convinced by it, but at least it should challenge me to think more deeply about what I believe and why.

That’s horrible. I can’t imagine what it must have been like for them to go through that. I really hope that none of them are emotionally scarred by it and I hope Jonathan doesn’t lose his sense of humor.

I guess as an atheist I’m not supposed to do this, but I will pray for you. Though don’t expect me to start believing in God if things get better.

I wish you and your family all the best.
I am convinced that you will be a believer one day but it will probably not be through any book. It will happen in a way that will surprise you.

Jono is a little tyke - I think that he will get through this but one cannot take a chance - trauma counseling for the boys is necessary - and your prayers of course.

Thank you
cinette:)
 
There were plenty more arguments (on both sides) that I find very unconvincing. Since you think that St Thomas’s proofs or the Metaphysical proofs provide good evidence that a God exists (while still requiring faith that the Catholic interpretation is correct), I was wondering which proof in particular you find most persuasive. I have looked at a lot of proofs so far and have yet to find one that makes me think there is probably some sort of God.
I think along the lines of if you can prove with one argument then there is no need for others although it is good that you can approach the subject from different perspectives.

If you have read St Thomas’s proofs, what do you think of the Uncaused Cause? I am thinking that if you are still not convinced now then you must have a problem with this proof.

If so what would they be.
I don’t think I am willfully blinding myself, but of course maybe that’s just what someone willfully blinding themselves would say. I think it is unreasonable for atheists to make a demand for proof. For me to believe, I would just need to think that there probably is a God.
Would the Uncaused Cause not be a good enough proof of this probability so that you will believe? Again, this is all about a generic God (creator) rather than the God who is Love that one encounters in Scripture.

I am re-joning this discussion rather late so someone may have brought this matter up already.
 
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