Dismissed From Deacon Formation Program

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And with that painful, insensitive, dismissive statement, ByzCath, you have pushed me away once and for all from the Roman Catholic Church. I may not have the right to ordination, but I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE REAL REASON WHY AND I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HEARD!

I am no longer a Roman Catholic.
  1. Most of the forum posters are treating this as a job - it is not a job - IT IS A VOCATION. It is not a right.
  2. For vocations God does the calling - the Church confirms that Calling. If the Church does not confirm it then it is not there.
  3. The fact that you would leave the Church because you did not get what you wanted to your satisfaction shows that there are issues. You already said in your initial posting they gave you an answer. It is not one you probably want to comment on but these kinds of reactions towards anyone who disagrees with your position do not tend to make you look any more stable.
  4. I hope that you can work out the issues they speak of and find peace and realize the calling later if you have one.
Pax et Bonum,
 
We only have one side of the story here. I am not “zealous” in any way…



My favorite SciFi show, Babylon 5 had a line. Made by the Vorlon ambassador to (I believe) Sheridian (commander of the station), it goes, "The truth is a three edge sword, your truth, his truth, and the Truth."
Truth!

(My reference to ‘zealous’ was a reference to the Carmelite motto. ;))

It is true that many people are deaf to what their superiors (or supervisors) try to tell them. But those in charge can create a roadmap, so that the discerner may come to realize that (s)he is not called, and that the superiors may be able to create a sort of paper trail, or conference/feedback trail which can lead up to the eventual expulsion, when/if it takes place. At least the discerner can see it coming. In almost all workplaces, there are well-defined practices which are set up for supervisors to follow to evaluate all individuals, especially those who are not fitting into the organization, training program, or institute. It doesn’t sound as if the program the OP was in had these practices in place.

There is a recent post on the long-running thread on women discerning religious life, in reference to the Sisters of St. Joseph of Florida and their excellent summary of their discernment process. I couldn’t help think of this thread while reading the summary.

Here is the link:

ssjfl.org/discerning.htm

Click on Spiritual Formation Process.

This is a well thought-out very thorough process with a great deal of supervision and feedback at all stages. Note that there is a great deal of concentration on the beginning–with an affiliate process, and a one OR TWO year postulancy. In this sort of setting it would be very difficult for something to happen such as what happened to the OP.
 
And with that painful, insensitive, dismissive statement, ByzCath, you have pushed me away once and for all from the Roman Catholic Church. I may not have the right to ordination, but I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE REAL REASON WHY AND I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HEARD!

I am no longer a Roman Catholic. LOL
Let me just say this: isn’t the Truth worth sacrifices? Even a little bit of your supposed ‘dignity’ or ‘pride’?

Jesus went to Golgatha for us, calumniated and denied by nearly everyone he knew–did he reject them… or the positive lessons of his ministry… out of turn? As a potential minister in God’s service, can you really except the support of your community when you are unwilling to support the Church, even if some of its ministers consider you unfit to serve in a certain congregation?

Which you probably are.

I could tell simply by the language you used in your original post that you came here pretty much looking for either unconditional affirmation or an argument. I wasn’t surprised to find that a tantrum erupted during this ‘search for truth’ (i.e., the search for the ‘truth’ that the Church is wrong, and, you–of course–are right).

If you seriously lost your ‘faith’ (i.e., allegiance to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church) because some guy on the internet gave you a piece of measured, value-neutral advice, I absolutely agree with the decisions of your spiritual directors. The more I read of this self-pity and your Wagnerian CAPS-LOCK-ed tirades, the more I think that your SDs must have been very perceptive men. Kudos to them.

Responding to your original post, the militant support for Latin Mass is a ‘rat-line’ for very strange people who have very strange ideas and want to advocate these strange ideas under the aegis of the universal Church and the Mass of the Ages. Making the Church their personal paramilitary, in effect.
Oh, and I’m not ‘one of them’… if it were up to me, every diocese would have several Catholic schools, teaching every young Catholic a solid question-and-answer catechism, and–of course–ecclesiastical Latin. Which they would use every Sunday during the EF Mass, which would have long surpassed the OF as the ‘ordinary’ or normal Mass.
At the same time, there are people who want the Latin Mass and the Motu Propio to serve as a battle standard against everything that they personally disagree with. People who feel this way, usually talk about it non-stop–and belligerently argue against those they perceive to be less zealous about its restoration. I’m not suggesting that you’re a member of this ecclesiastical Fifth Column… only that you sound like one. 👍

As for why you were ejected from the program. The only people who can answer this question for you are the people who gave you the boot.

Hope this helps. 🙂
 
… problem at all.


And why was my initial psychological evaluation brought up when there was nothing wrong with it beforehand?

**Apparently the initial evaluation didn’t detect your intense persecution complex, weak attachment to the Mother Church whose service you were applying to, and your unwillingness to accept personal responsibility.

That’d be my guess. :cool:**

…more.
 
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strgzr99:
Truth!

(My reference to ‘zealous’ was a reference to the Carmelite motto. ;))

Sorry I missed that, and its right there in my signature too, isn’t…🤷
It is true that many people are deaf to what their superiors (or supervisors) try to tell them. But those in charge can create a roadmap, so that the discerner may come to realize that (s)he is not called, and that the superiors may be able to create a sort of paper trail, or conference/feedback trail which can lead up to the eventual expulsion, when/if it takes place. At least the discerner can see it coming. In almost all workplaces, there are well-defined practices which are set up for supervisors to follow to evaluate all individuals, especially those who are not fitting into the organization, training program, or institute. It doesn’t sound as if the program the OP was in had these practices in place.
We do not know what has happened. There could be such a paper trial, as it is. It seems that they did give him a road map, counseling was suggested. It is also important to note that there was a change in the person running the program. The person who was running it may have ignored somethings that had to be dealt with by the new person. It is also a good sign that the meeting had a third party at it. This way, neither side, the program head, nor the dismissed candidate, can claim any improprieties at the meeting.
 
I have no idea why the candidate was dismissed from the program, nor do I have a right to know. However, there are some ideas floating around on this thread that come from the secular world of work, which do not apply here. It’s important that we know this.

Religious communities and dioceses do not keep a paper trail of evaluations. This is not the norm. In fact, when an evaluation of a candidate takes place, usually, no one is allowed to take notes. It may not be recorded in any way. This protects the privacy of the committee members. The voting, if there is one, is by ballot or by a show of hands. The ballots are destroyed and no tally is ever recorded. It’s either yeah or nay. This has been the practice since before the Middle Ages. There may be dioceses that have adopted the corporate system of written evaluations, but this would be an exception not the usual for the Catholic Church.

The rules are very clear. The Church is not obliged to give a candidate a reason for dismissal. Until the individual is in vows, if he’s a religious or ordained, if he is a secular, he can be dismissed at any time during the formation period and the reason may remain known only to the major superior (for religious) or to the bishop (for seculars). The only reason given may be, “We believe that you do not have a vocation.”

Bishops are not required to consult when they dismiss or when they accept to ordain someone. It is usually done, but not because it must be done. If you have a bishop who wants to use his prerogative to dismiss, he can do so without explaining to anyone why. In secular seminaries, such as the diaconate and the diocesan priesthood, no one may be dismissed without prior knowledge and consent of the bishop, but the bishop’s authority is absolute. He may delegate it to a Formation Director. It may never be questioned by anyone. This comes from the faith of the Church that teaches us that a vocation to the secular clerical state is communicated only through the local bishop. Christ does not call anyone to the secular clerical state through any other means than through the local bishop. This does not rule out that Christ can call someone to serve him in another diocese or at a later time.

Candidates for Holy Orders or religious vows may be put on probation. This is not contrary to law. The usual way is to give them a warning. The ordination can even be postponed to allow the problem to be resolved. However, there is no current law in the Church that requires such probation. It is up to the bishop, if the candidate is for the diocese and to the major superior, if the candidate is for a religious institute. This is a secular model that the Church has never adopted, though it does make use of it from time to time.

Unless the person is a religious in solemn vows, there is no right to an appeal. Only religious in solemn vows are protected by a right of appeal, before dismissal. Even religious in simple vows do not have the right to an appeal. Because a candidate for a diocese is a secular and layperson, he does not have the same rights as do religious in solemn vows. There is no appeal, unless the local bishop agrees to hear the appeal. It’s really up to him. There is currently no law in place that requires this when a layperson is involved.

There is a law in place that allows an ordained man to appeal, even if he is secular, but to the best of my knowledge, Pope Benedict is working on reducing the circumstances under which an appeal may be made. Since I’m not a secular cleric, I have no idea when it is that a secular cleric can appeal a dismissal. This would not apply in this case, because the person was not ordained.

I understand that sadness involved here. Unfortunately, there are no canons that regulate this kind of situation. It’s really up to the local diocese. Every diocese and every religious community has its own criteria for admission and dismissal. Unlike religious communities that have a constitution that all major superiors must follow, diocesan bishops are autonomous. Bishop X can use his criteria. When he leaves office and Bishop Y takes over the diocese, he can change the criteria. A diocese is not a constitutional body, as is a religious community. A diocese is a monarchal body. If something is not in Canon Law or an established ecclesial custom, every time you have a new bishop you can get new rules.

The most productive suggestion that I can offer to the OP is to discuss this with his spiritual director. If he feels that his dismissal was unjust, he does have the right to write a response, which will be kept in his permanent file for future reference by a future bishop, should he decide to apply at a later date.

I wish that I could be of more help.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
To me there is an overriding issue despite rules and regulations of ordinary down to earth Charity and care and concern for another human being surely. A sad day indeed when all rules and regulations override common decency with care and concern for another human being and fellow Catholic, not to mention Charity. Sad day indeed when the letter of the law becomes prime and the sole concern that it be carried out.

I have no idea if the OP was accurate or whether he was not and that is not at all included in my comments.

TS
 
And with that painful, insensitive, dismissive statement, ByzCath, you have pushed me away once and for all from the Roman Catholic Church. I may not have the right to ordination, but I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE REAL REASON WHY AND I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HEARD!

I am no longer a Roman Catholic.
I understand where you’re coming from, and what you feel. I have been rejected too and I understand the pain you’re feeling… but my, that was so fast. You didn’t even let ByzCath explain further. Is that how easy for you to leave our Catholic faith? This is just sad.

You may take this as a harsh judgment but I never intend you to push you out of the church, nor to hurt you.

Pagpalain ka ng Diyos.
 
I only have two comments.
  1. Due to the personal sensitive nature of this topic and the fact that we can only get one side of the story, this is not to say it is not the truth but the diocese and the diaconate program will not comment on this, this topic should not be discussed.
  2. How would the diaconate program director know of any of your preferences regarding Liturgy? If the information has no bearing on the program why are you volunteering it. Especially given the system we live and work in today?
Lastly, (I know I said two comments but…) no one has a right to ordination.
And with that painful, insensitive, dismissive statement, ByzCath, you have pushed me away once and for all from the Roman Catholic Church. I may not have the right to ordination, but I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE REAL REASON WHY AND I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HEARD!

I am no longer a Roman Catholic.
I have to say that what ByzCath said was factual true. No one does have the right to ordination and we really do have only one side of the story. If what some poster says here is a reason for you leaving the Church, then perhaps you should consider the possibility that the director had a point and sees something you do not.
 
How can people recommend this man should try to go into formation somewhere else? Not to be insensitive, but only dedicated people should receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. We’ve got enough problems already that we don’t need people who cut and run as soon as things get difficult. He’s willing to leave the Church over a posting on a forum (the one by ByzCath)? Really? His willingness to throw away all the truths and everything he believed prior to this happening, makes me seriously question his faith. Anyone who is ordained or seeking ordination should be in love with Christ and His Church. In effect, they are a representative of Christ (the bridegroom), and they are to show unconditional love for the Church (the Bride). Leaving the one true Church is not a display of love, but of anger and resentment. Perhaps there really was something wrong with his evaluation, and we are seeing the fruits of it in this post. What’s sad is that Benedictine will find no peace by leaving the Church, only more struggle. Humility and obedience need to find their way to this man’s heart.

"If my superiors ordered me to jump out of the window, I would not argue" -St. Pio

Benedictine, you are in my prayers.
 
To me there is an overriding issue despite rules and regulations of ordinary down to earth Charity and care and concern for another human being surely. A sad day indeed when all rules and regulations override common decency with care and concern for another human being and fellow Catholic, not to mention Charity. Sad day indeed when the letter of the law becomes prime and the sole concern that it be carried out.

I have no idea if the OP was accurate or whether he was not and that is not at all included in my comments.

TS
“This has been the practice since before the middle ages.”

This says it all. Brother JR summarizes some of the best reasons for not entering religious life. There is no process established in canon law for dismissal, of the type that is well established across the working world. No recourse, no trail, no feedback, no explanations. You enter, giving up many things, quitting a good job, selling a well-running car, giving up your cherished apartment, and enter religious life–in any form, then find out weeks/months/years and in the case of the Carthusian monk I described, decades later–are told to leave. You don’t have a vocation. You have issues–what issues? Issues. This sort of treatment has no parallel in the modern working world in the western hemisphere. Women’s religious communities, and I suspect many men’s communities also, appear to have well-established guidelines for formation, with a lot of supervision and feedback, which, however, appear to be optional, something that they have developed over the years, but which were not required.

The door swings both ways. Candidates can apparently go through formation with insufficient supervision and feedback such as what the OP may have received. I was appalled at the recent post by a religious who stated that it isn’t unusual for religious to leave after final profession. Apparently the superiors didn’t know their younger religious very well. They discovered that it is possible to walk away.

“Why are you leaving?”

“I changed my mind.”
 
Things in the world can often seem ironic or unfair. In the case of the Church, it seems odd that heretics like Hans Kung are given a slap on the wrist (he is still a Catholic priest in good standing; only his license to teach theology has been revoked), while others in the past have been excommunicated or laicized for lesser or seemingly imaginary offenses. I just hope that such a thing never happens to me. If it happened to a Carthusian priest under solemn vows, then it can happen to anyone. At the same time, there have been clerics and religious who have requested to leave their state in life for ridiculous reasons(take the politically ambitious bishop Fernando Lugo as an example).
 
I don’t doubt you, but why?
Code:
Because when you become holy as he was holy, there are virtues that manifest themselves just by being holy. One of them is doing God’s will and not even thinking of one’s own will at all. His will was totally meshed into the will of God…and that meant as a religious priest, whatever the superior would tell them what to do, he would do it…as long as it was not a sin. The Vatican, because of his extraordinary manifestations of spiritual gifts, enclosed him in his cell…he obeyed without murmur. He was tested and passed the test. His being stuck in his cell did not stop the gifts from being manifested…because his life was totally enraptured in God. He knew that being humilated as he was, that he was following his Christ. And there is no other human being humiliated as much as Jesus Himself was.

Does that help?😊
 
There is no process established in canon law for dismissal, of the type that is well established across the working world.
This is not true. Look at canons 694-704, which indicate a complex procedure for the dismissal of professed religious:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2C.HTM
No recourse, no trail, no feedback, no explanations.
As the above canons show, not so. And remember that those canons have to be read in the light of the more extensive provisions of the code regarding process and dialogue, as well as in the context of the proper law of the religious institute. The totality of which clearly indicates that there is an expectation of such niceties since the 1983 Code came into force.
You enter, giving up many things, quitting a good job, selling a well-running car, giving up your cherished apartment,
Actually, you are advised to give up as little as possible until you reach solemn vows. I decided to sell my house and keep the money in an account, but it remains mine unless I am accepted for solemn profession, at which time it must be surrendered.
and enter religious life–in any form, then find out weeks/months/years and in the case of the Carthusian monk I described, decades later–are told to leave.
Again, the dismissal of a solemnly professed religious could not be accomplished so summarily under the terms of the 1983 Code. Any attempt at same should be met with a request for proper process - which it must be acknowledged, can end with dismissal. Process does not guarantee a happy ending, but it should guarantee fairness. If process was not followed in the case of this Carthusian, what appeals were made? Because contrary to your assertion here, dismissal of a solemnly professed religious is not easy to accomplish.
Women’s religious communities, and I suspect many men’s communities also, appear to have well-established guidelines for formation, with a lot of supervision and feedback, which, however, appear to be optional, something that they have developed over the years, but which were not required.
They are required, and are not optional.

We are mixing apples and oranges here. Rights are necessarily limited when in formation - which is what I believe Brother JR was specifically addressing - precisely because the candidate has no automatic right to admission nor to profession, hence the institute has greater latitude. This is no different to someone presenting themselves to a prospective spouse but being turned down. No paperwork would be forthcoming in that circumstance, either. And religious life is about relationship, not employment.

However, a responsible institute would offer support and guidance, and in my experience they always do (I accept my experience isn’t universal, obviously): my own province has always stayed in contact with ex-novices and students who left in recent decades, and when contact is broken it is invariably by the ex-novice.
The door swings both ways. Candidates can apparently go through formation with insufficient supervision and feedback such as what the OP may have received.
Certainly that can happen. More often, candidates can go through formation misrepresenting themselves convincingly enough that they get by, most especially when - in contradiction of your central premise - the institute is keen to give them a chance rather than casually dismiss them.

The bottom line is that both parties are human and flawed and mistakes are made on both sides. Anyone expecting their religious community to be omniscient or perfect will be sadly disappointed.
Apparently the superiors didn’t know their younger religious very well. They discovered that it is possible to walk away.

“Why are you leaving?”

“I changed my mind.”
Personally I’ve never seen or heard of it happening that way. Usually its much more protracted, and is characterised by deep sadness in both parties, not a shrug of the shoulders.

Moving on, I think this thread is an object lesson in why the forum is not a good place to discuss the minutiae of personal hurts. Asking for prayers, certainly. But asking for commentary always seems to invite high levels of expressed emotion and a spiralling sense of subjectivity in which abstract fears and suspicions are first confirmed as likely, then as definite, and finally as typical of what we should expect. This is unhelpful at best, and hysterical at worst. It certainly doesn’t aid the troubled individual.

Benedictine’s experience may have been abusive, or it may have been simply very hurtful. In either event I am sorry for his distress and crisis of faith. But let’s keep this in proportion. Such sad occasions are not the norm. And being under authority is simply something that religious have to get used to. The vast majority of the time, that authority will be exercised without malice or harmful effect. It may be useful to hear about the times when things go wrong, but we shouldn’t assume they are common or even normal.
 
Code:
Because when you become holy as he was holy, there are virtues that manifest themselves just by being holy. One of them is doing God’s will and not even thinking of one’s own will at all. His will was totally meshed into the will of God…and that meant as a religious priest, whatever the superior would tell them what to do, he would do it…as long as it was not a sin. The Vatican, because of his extraordinary manifestations of spiritual gifts, enclosed him in his cell…he obeyed without murmur. He was tested and passed the test. His being stuck in his cell did not stop the gifts from being manifested…because his life was totally enraptured in God. He knew that being humilated as he was, that he was following his Christ. And there is no other human being humiliated as much as Jesus Himself was.

Does that help?😊
AMEN!

I have resisted the temptation to post for a little while, I can’t take it anymore. This was well said, but most of us will not see the truth in this because living in the world is different from where Padre Pio lived. He lived his life in Christ.

The thing I wanted to add but resisted, was about our formation and a guy who was asked to leave during our third year. Still to this day, almost three years later, does not go to Church or speak to the deacon leader whom he was close friends with beforehand; or the bishop for that matter.

See, his being removed from formation was all their fault. It was their doing which led to his dismissal. It didn’t matter that he was not conforming to this very concept that Padre Pio exemplified. None of us who are still in the class will ever be the type of example Padre Pio was, but none the less, “die to self” is the key phrase used throughout formation.

There is no right to holy orders; it is a calling of a person by God, and the calling of the Church as stated already.

I would say that I agree with the few who have stated that if the OP has left the RCC because of this, the “die to self” mentality has not sunken in; therefore I can say from my experience in formation for what is 3 days left of a five year process, he would not make a good deacon. Some will disagree with that statement, but I would bet that the ones who do have never been through a formation process like the one required to become a deacon.

And by the way, one cannot simply choose to no longer be Catholic. If you are baptized into the Church you will always be Catholic, maybe not in good standing or maybe excommunicated, but still Catholic none the less.👍
 
His will was totally meshed into the will of God…and that meant as a religious priest, whatever the superior would tell them what to do, he would do it…as long as it was not a sin.
Jumping out of the window would be a sin, Shoshana. It would be an act of deliberate self-harm, as surely as if the superior gave him a gun and asked him to shoot himself.

Staying in a cell when one would rather be out and about, however, is ‘merely’ a penance.

I think the saint was using hyperbole, and nothing wrong with that. Jesus often did the same in his preaching, too, so St Pio is in good company. 🙂
 
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