Dismissed From Deacon Formation Program

[Orogeny]

It is the thinking of today that self-harm is a sin, yes. And the thinking of yesterday too.

What if it was a ground-floor window? Just sayin…

Peace

Tim

 

[Annsy]

Congratulations!! Join the club! Many great saints were “kicked out” of their own orders. St. John of the Cross the greatest Doctor of the Church was imprisoned by his own order for 2 1/2 years. St. Francis of Assisi was kicked out of the order he founded (the Franciscans) and made to roam in the woods. Blessed Charles de Foucald was never accepted into any order and he was homeless on the streets preaching God’s word. And. don’t forget that Jesus, Himself, was hated by the very people He chose to save. They hated Him so much that they crucified Him. All He did was to love them.

You are in good company! Please understand that God has entrusted you with this indignity. He knows you can handle it, and it will make you a great saint!

 

[JReducation]

WHOAH! Slow down. There are some inaccuracies here.

St. John of the Cross the greatest Doctor of the Church was imprisoned by his own order for 2 1/2 years.

The situation with John of the Cross has to be understood in its historical context. There was a great penitential movement that was heretical. It was feared that John could be part of that.

St. Francis of Assisi was kicked out of the order he founded (the Franciscans) and made to roam in the woods.

This never happened. Our Holy Father died as the Superior General of the Order. He never abdicated or was asked to leave. We have his Testament that he wrote a month before he died.

What is true, is that he became a hermit during the last two years of life life. However, he was never separated from the order. There were two friars who lived with him on Mt. LaVerna: Brother Leo, who penned the Canticle of the Creatures in 1224 and Br. Illuminato who was his nurse and squire. When he became too ill to care for himself, he was brought to San Damiano where the nuns cared for him until he died. He was burried with all of the honors that go with the rank, General Minister. During his entire period of hermitage life, he rewrote the Rule of the Friars Minor in 1223. He rewrote the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance in 1223. He wrote the Canticle of the Creatures in 1224 or 25. He finished it in 1226, just before his death. he wrote the admonitions that he ordered to be appended to the rule, in 1225. He wrote his Testament in which he commands obedience to him and his successors in 1226, about one month before he dies. He was very much the General Minister of the three orders.

Blessed Charles de Foucald was never accepted into any order and he was homeless on the streets preaching God’s word.

Bl. Charles of Jesus did not want to join any order. He was originally a Jesuit. He asked for a dispensation from the Jesuits, but to remain in vows. This was granted, just like Mother Teresa’s case. He then moved to the Arab world to live as the Holy Family lived. It was his hope to found a new religious community. He was murdered and the community was never founded during his lifetime. Today, the Little Brothers of Jesus and the Little Sisters of Jesus follow the spirit of Br. Charles. He left the Society of Jesus of his own free will and with permission from the Holy See. He was not sent away or abandoned. Once you make solemn vows in a religious order, you may not be dismissed without a canonical process. Br. Charles was a solemnly professed religious in the Society of Jesus. Br. Charles chose to live abject poverty, as did Mother Teresa, Francis of Assisi and Mother Elizabeth Ann Seton. A vocation to live this way is not the same as being evicted from one’s religious family. This was not the case here.

Other founders were separated from their communities for different reasons, but all of them were canonical.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[strgzr99]

Actually, JR, I was addressing the remarks of other posters, OCarm in particular.

The foundresses of the women’s congregations in the US usually did not stipulate that they or their designated superiors have to be obeyed blindly. The degree and nature of the obedience are prescribed in the statutes and constitutions, which are updated from time to time. It is not my impression that today’s women’s apostolic communities in the US encourage blind obedience. Many if not most women’s apostolic congregations in the US engage in complex, responsible work with might be compromised by such a policy.

The finally professed members of women’s apostolic communities elect their superiors, who are either individuals or members of a committee that oversees the congregation or its branches. It is my understanding that it is the tradition in most if not all communities for fully professed members to elect their superiors, and also vote on candidates for profession, and therefore these communities function as a democracy. They are families who *elect *their ‘authority figures’, whether these are individuals or committees.

Regarding the apostolic visitation, there is a report of an interview by John Allen with Archbishop Tobin, a Redemptorist from Detroit, twice a Secretary General of the order, now secretary of the Congregations for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, which is overseeing the visitation. The Archbishop was decidedly conciliatory in tone during that interview.

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vatican-must-hear-anger-and-hurt-american-nuns-official-says

Some quotes: The Archbishop is speaking. The interviewer is in Italics.
**
"…Yes, although I can say that I would be very surprised if anybody would purport to give any punitive or overly prescriptive norms as a result of this visitation. If the visitors, in dialogue with the sisters, have identified some specific issues that need to be dealt with, okay. But forcing people into habits or something like that? That’s not what this is about.**

There’s another side to this, which is that if anybody needed to be convinced of the complexity of the United States, just do an apostolic visit! There are stereotypes of Americans in the air sometimes, and there’s a risk of falling victim to those stereotypes among people who don’t know the country.

In other words, this visitation could be a learning experience for Rome as well?

Sure, that’s what I’m saying.

You don’t anticipate that the visitation is going to trigger an earthquake in women’s religious life in America?
**
No, I don’t. I think that would be really disrespectful of what women religious in America have accomplished. Anyway, earthquakes in religious life generally don’t work out very well. Pope Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits, for example, and in retrospect that wasn’t a very good idea!**

We’re not likely to see anything like that?

No…"

The full interview is in this Friday’s NCR, in the column “All Things Catholic”.

 

[cargau]

I was admitted to my diocese’s deacon formation program and was doing very well. I received excellent grades in the course work, was very active in my parish’s ministries, attended and participated in daily mass, and even did things outside the parish such as visiting the needy and teaching the faith outside the parish (all approved). The parish pastor completely supported me and told me frequently that he looked forward to the day that I was ordained! My program reviews were all excellent and there was absolutely no indication of a problem at all.

Then about halfway through the program we got a new formation director and something seriously changed. He took this instant disliking towards me, which I could not understand at all. Everything I did was wrong to him and he became very critical. My course work continued to excel and I had the admiration and support of all the guys in the program, but this new director seemed to be really out to “get me”. There may have been two possible reasons for this: 1. My support for the Tridentine Latin Mass as per Pope Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum motu proprio, though of course I complete support and promote the modern Mass as well as Vatican II, and 2. My weight. I have been seriously overweight, but have since trimmed down. The director is a serious health nut, always talking about his workouts and nutrition.

Then on my first review with him, I was brought into a room with another priest there (I had no idea why he was there) and told that there was “recently discovered discrepancy” in my initial psychological evaluation at the beginning of the program! He then suggested I “get counseling” and dismissed me from the program! I was horribly shocked! And the worst part is that my neither my pastor or bishop (who is very liberal) would hear me, ignoring my requests to talk to them about this. I was then treated like a pariah by the parish staff and the diocesan chancery, and have been the laughingstock of my parish and diocese ever since.

I have no idea what happened to me and have been completely numb ever since. It has been months now and I have tried to move on, but cannot. I am so wounded by what happened that I have been seriously considering to finally leave the Catholic Church all together. I am sick and tired of the patronizing statement “Well, you can still be a GREAT layperson!” I have always believed that I am called to clerical ministry, but if the church rejects me for no reason given or no chance to work out whatever is the problem, then how can I go on? Was it my support of the Latin Mass? And why was my initial psychological evaluation brought up when there was nothing wrong with it beforehand? I was admitted to the program with this evaluation reviewed and approved, was I not? If there was a problem, then why was I admitted to the program? I cannot talk to my pastor about this, and the other guys in the program, who were so supportive and loving, now avoid me like the plague, for fear of being associated with me and finding themselves kicked out so close to ordination.

I just don’t know what to do or say. Has anyone else had this experience, and if so how did you move on? I just do not understand what happened. I really want to leave the Roman Catholic Church, but only stay for my wife and family. I have no love for the church any more.

I am in formation for the Diaconate. I would be very devastated if I was told I was no longer invited to pursue ordination. Still, I would be grateful for the opportunity and the formation that I did experience.

I would never leave the Church under any circumstances. In fact, your position (reaction) is one that calls into question your suitability for the Diaconate in the first place. Perhaps, the formation director detected a defect that would have made you unsuitable for ordination.

I know this is painful for you. But, this really isn’t about you. It’s about Christ and His Church. He may be calling you to a mission that he has chosen uniquely for you. If you close the door on Him, you will never know.

May God bless and keep you.

You are in my prayers as you carry this cross.

 

[Lapey]

I am in formation for the Diaconate. I would be very devastated if I was told I was no longer invited to pursue ordination. Still, I would be grateful for the opportunity and the formation that I did experience.

I would never leave the Church under any circumstances. In fact, your position (reaction) is one that calls into question your suitability for the Diaconate in the first place. Perhaps, the formation director detected a defect that would have made you unsuitable for ordination.

I know this is painful for you. But, this really isn’t about you. It’s about Christ and His Church. He may be calling you to a mission that he has chosen uniquely for you. If you close the door on Him, you will never know.

May God bless and keep you.

You are in my prayers as you carry this cross.

What stage are you in formation? I will be ordained Saturday at 10 AM mass. Five years of work coming to fruition!

 

[cargau]

What stage are you in formation? I will be ordained Saturday at 10 AM mass. Five years of work coming to fruition!

That’s wonderful, Lapey. May God bless your ministry…

I am an Aspirant…3.5 years to go. Lot’s of time for the powers to discover my flaws…

 

[Joshua_P]

Bl. Charles of Jesus…was originally a Jesuit…He asked for a dispensation from the Jesuits, but to remain in vows. He left the Society of Jesus of his own free will and with permission from the Holy See…He was not sent away or abandoned. Once you make solemn vows in a religious order, you may not be dismissed without a canonical process. Br. Charles was a solemnly professed religious in the Society of Jesus.

Just a minor correction…Charles de Foucauld was actually a Trappist and not a Jesuit, but the story as you relate it is accurate aside from the particular Order.

 

[TiggerS]

I am in formation for the Diaconate. I would be very devastated if I was told I was no longer invited to pursue ordination. Still, I would be grateful for the opportunity and the formation that I did experience.

I would never leave the Church under any circumstances. In fact, your position (reaction) is one that calls into question your suitability for the Diaconate in the first place. Perhaps, the formation director detected a defect that would have made you unsuitable for ordination.

I know this is painful for you. But, this really isn’t about you. It’s about Christ and His Church. He may be calling you to a mission that he has chosen uniquely for you. If you close the door on Him, you will never know.

May God bless and keep you.

You are in my prayers as you carry this cross.

Hi cargau and excellent comments, I thought, and I hope that our OP is still reading this thread, although I really would not blame him if he was not
When I left monastic life I was totally disillusioned and confused. I knew for sure where I was not called but had no idea at all to what God was calling me and at first this felt like “not calling nowhere at all!”. I was hurt, a bit angry back then too I think, most of all I was deeply saddened verging on depressed if not depression itself. As time rolled by and I worked through these feelings - and it did take time, a lot of time, I began to see some light about to what God just might be calling me. More time, this call became clearer and I set out on a way of life that was just unfolding in my path and totally and absolutely unexpected, let alone imagined in any way. Nowadays, nothing and no one could ever convince me that I am not following my vocation - that I am not following God’s Call for my life although it probably defies definition under current terms. Since all that and still rather defying definition - and by that I mean putting it into some predetermined category, I have received affirmation that I am indeed following God’s Call and by those I respect as wise, holy and informed, educated in the Faith - and one affirmation in writing from heirarchy.

But it all takes time and it can be a painful journey. While I left unasked and by my own decision, I still had a painful and long journey ahead. I made decisions, that I later corrected realizing I had made the wrong decision. And, I confess, some of those decisions and the consequences, I just have to live with and cannot change. Yet we are always being guided and informed by God’s Loving Will, either His Direct or His Permissive Will and I think that this is an important theology to insight for a life of Peace and Trust in God leading to Joy in Him who is Ultimate Reality and Love - we do not pray in the Hail Holy Queen “this valley of tears” for naught -

CCC #311 (in part) : God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

I really do feel for the OP and I can understand him feeling angry on a few scores and not only his dismissal from the Diaconate and apparently with no explanation - at least I knew why I was leaving and no one told me to leave. If he does indeed leave The Church and a bit of knee jerk reaction I think to a very painful overall situation - and entirely understandable - and even to my mind a somewhat unjust painful situation on a few unfolding scores, then my hope and prayer is that he will come to realize he has made a wrong decision and change that decision. And honestly, who amongst us has not made a bad decision, and regretted it and in most cases, bad decisions can be corrected. There are some that we cannot change and need to live with the consequences with Peace and Tranquility and trust in God and His Divine Providence forever with us always in all things.

It may take time and a perhaps long journey before our OP can realize that possibly only he may not have a vocation to the Diaconate - that God is calling him elsewhere and it may take time and perhaps a lot of time before he realizes what God’s Call actually is for his life. He may have many even negative feelings to work through and a journey ahead in doing so and it may lead to a very deep insight into his Faith. It can be difficult for some discerners to separate what God is asking from what they personally want and envisage for their lives. I just think it is sad and damaging to pound a person all around the place, if we do, and because of a situation they find themselves painfully dealing with and even with much personal non understanding and confusion. If I am not confused and can understand as one on the outside, looking in as it were, then this is simply God’s Gift to me and always rather easy to not be confused nor lack understanding when it is not my personal problem. We share a common faulted and fallible humanity.
I will be keeping our OP in prayer.

TS

 

[Shoshana]

Hi cargau and excellent comments, I thought, and I hope that our OP is still reading this thread, although I really would not blame him if he was not
When I left monastic life I was totally disillusioned and confused. I knew for sure where I was not called but had no idea at all to what God was calling me and at first this felt like “not calling nowhere at all!”. I was hurt, a bit angry back then too I think, most of all I was deeply saddened verging on depressed if not depression itself. As time rolled by and I worked through these feelings - and it did take time, a lot of time, I began to see some light about to what God just might be calling me. More time, this call became clearer and I set out on a way of life that was just unfolding in my path and totally and absolutely unexpected, let alone imagined in any way. Nowadays, nothing and no one could ever convince me that I am not following my vocation - that I am not following God’s Call for my life although it probably defies definition under current terms. Since all that and still rather defying definition - and by that I mean putting it into some predetermined category, I have received affirmation that I am indeed following God’s Call and by those I respect as wise, holy and informed, educated in the Faith - and one affirmation in writing from heirarchy.

But it all takes time and it can be a painful journey. While I left unasked and by my own decision, I still had a painful and long journey ahead. I made decisions, that I later corrected realizing I had made the wrong decision. And, I confess, some of those decisions and the consequences, I just have to live with and cannot change. Yet we are always being guided and informed by God’s Loving Will, either His Direct or His Permissive Will and I think that this is an important theology to insight for a life of Peace and Trust in God leading to Joy in Him who is Ultimate Reality and Love - we do not pray in the Hail Holy Queen “this valley of tears” for naught -

I really do feel for the OP and I can understand him feeling angry on a few scores and not only his dismissal from the Diaconate and apparently with no explanation - at least I knew why I was leaving and no one told me to leave. If he does indeed leave The Church and a bit of knee jerk reaction I think to a very painful overall situation - and entirely understandable - and even to my mind a somewhat unjust painful situation on a few unfolding scores, then my hope and prayer is that he will come to realize he has made a wrong decision and change that decision. And honestly, who amongst us has not made a bad decision, and regretted it and in most cases, bad decisions can be corrected. There are some that we cannot change and need to live with the consequences with Peace and Tranquility and trust in God and His Divine Providence forever with us always in all things.

It may take time and a perhaps long journey before our OP can realize that possibly only he may not have a vocation to the Diaconate - that God is calling him elsewhere and it may take time and perhaps a lot of time before he realizes what God’s Call actually is for his life. He may have many even negative feelings to work through and a journey ahead in doing so and it may lead to a very deep insight into his Faith. It can be difficult for some discerners to separate what God is asking from what they personally want and envisage for their lives. I just think it is sad and damaging to pound a person all around the place, if we do, and because of a situation they find themselves painfully dealing with and even with much personal non understanding and confusion. If I am not confused and can understand as one on the outside, looking in as it were, then this is simply God’s Gift to me and always rather easy to not be confused nor lack understanding when it is not my personal problem. We share a common faulted and fallible humanity.
I will be keeping our OP in prayer.

TS

Thank you…I am so very inspired by your testimony! Only one who has been through this would truly understand…people like you make advice real and holy!

 

[TiggerS]

Thank you…I am so very inspired by your testimony! Only one who has been through this would truly understand…people like you make advice real and holy!

God is Good:thumbsup: - and may you also kiss The Face of God with all of us!

TS

 

[ThomasEugene]

Bl. Charles of Jesus did not want to join any order. He was originally a Jesuit. He asked for a dispensation from the Jesuits, but to remain in vows. This was granted, just like Mother Teresa’s case. He then moved to the Arab world to live as the Holy Family lived. It was his hope to found a new religious community. He was murdered and the community was never founded during his lifetime. Today, the Little Brothers of Jesus and the Little Sisters of Jesus follow the spirit of Br. Charles. He left the Society of Jesus of his own free will and with permission from the Holy See. He was not sent away or abandoned. Once you make solemn vows in a religious order, you may not be dismissed without a canonical process. Br. Charles was a solemnly professed religious in the Society of Jesus. Br. Charles chose to live abject poverty, as did Mother Teresa, Francis of Assisi and Mother Elizabeth Ann Seton. A vocation to live this way is not the same as being evicted from one’s religious family. This was not the case here.

Brother, what you said about Blessed Charles is correct. but i don’t think he joined the Jesuits. he joined the Trappists rather.

God bless you!

 

[asnate]

Brother Jr,

I do value your postings, but this one is a bit inaccurate:
Charles de Foucald was with Trappists for 7 years, but he never was a Jesuit.

Asnate

Bl. Charles of Jesus did not want to join any order. He was originally a Jesuit. He asked for a dispensation from the Jesuits, but to remain in vows. This was granted, just like Mother Teresa’s case. He then moved to the Arab world to live as the Holy Family lived. It was his hope to found a new religious community. He was murdered and the community was never founded during his lifetime. Today, the Little Brothers of Jesus and the Little Sisters of Jesus follow the spirit of Br. Charles. He left the Society of Jesus of his own free will and with permission from the Holy See. He was not sent away or abandoned. Once you make solemn vows in a religious order, you may not be dismissed without a canonical process. Br. Charles was a solemnly professed religious in the Society of Jesus. Br. Charles chose to live abject poverty, as did Mother Teresa, Francis of Assisi and Mother Elizabeth Ann Seton. A vocation to live this way is not the same as being evicted from one’s religious family. This was not the case here.

Other founders were separated from their communities for different reasons, but all of them were canonical.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Just a minor correction…Charles de Foucauld was actually a Trappist and not a Jesuit, but the story as you relate it is accurate aside from the particular Order.

Thanks for the correction. I knew that he was a religious. I put him in the wrong order.

Thanks,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[IrishJoe]

OP is probably angry at a corrupt church, it’s a sinking ship get out while you can.

Unless something amazing happens like restoring reverence at Mass (or better yet restoring TR) and people are actually catechised properly Roman Catholicsm will become just an pseudo-ethnicity like judaism.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

[bibledrb]Matthew 16:18[/bibledrb]

The Church is made up of human beings, it is not perfect, it will never be perfect but as has been pointed out, the reactions of the OP show that there might be something to the dismissal and the reasons he was given though he does not wish to see this.

 

[IrishJoe]

Corrupt Church? So you deny Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:18?

[bibledrb]Matthew 16:18[/bibledrb]

The Church is made up of human beings, it is not perfect, it will never be perfect but as has been pointed out, the reactions of the OP show that there might be something to the dismissal and the reasons he was given though he does not wish to see this.

Firstly the bible as having being compiled by the RCC?, no not exactly something I believe blindly.

Second hell mightn’t prevail against it but it can still fall apart from within.

 

[jmcrae]

Firstly the bible as having being compiled by the RCC?, no not exactly something I believe blindly.

What’s “blind” is to think that it came from anywhere else.

The three Councils that gave us the canon of the New Testament were staffed with Catholic Bishops. The Pope who ratified their findings, and made the final infallible declaration that closed the canon also held the title of “Bishop of Rome.” They were also the ones who made the decision to include the Old Testament in it.

It takes quite a lot of willful blindness to avoid the fact that the Bible is a Catholic book.

 

[IrishJoe]

What’s “blind” is to think that it came from anywhere else.

The three Councils that gave us the canon of the New Testament were staffed with Catholic Bishops. The Pope who ratified their findings, and made the final infallible declaration that closed the canon also held the title of “Bishop of Rome.” They were also the ones who made the decision to include the Old Testament in it.

It takes quite a lot of willful blindness to avoid the fact that the Bible is a Catholic book.

Perhaps I was not articulate enough - the FACT that the bible was compiled by the RCC is why it’s the last think I would believe to verify their claims.

If I write a book or even gather a lot of books that say ‘Irish Joe is incharge’, and then say that the collection of books is correct/inspired/canon/whatever because I’m incharge then it seems a bit circular to me.

The bible is inherently catholic, I agree 1000000% with you on that, it’s also why I think protestantism is a bit short sighted. ‘Lets base our faith on a book that some dude* mangled that a church we think is wrong compiled’

*the dude being Martin Luther

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps I was not articulate enough - the FACT that the bible was compiled by the RCC is why it’s the last think I would believe to verify their claims.

If I write a book or even gather a lot of books that say ‘Irish Joe is incharge’, and then say that the collection of books is correct/inspired/canon/whatever because I’m incharge then it seems a bit circular to me.

The bible is inherently catholic, I agree 1000000% with you on that, it’s also why I think protestantism is a bit short sighted. ‘Lets base our faith on a book that some dude* mangled that a church we think is wrong compiled’

*the dude being Martin Luther

OH, I see - I misread your other post. Your logic is certainly consistent. I happen to disagree with your original premise, but at least your conclusion is logically sound.