Disobeying God = Disavowing God?

[aperture]

Right. Everything that makes us alive - everything that experiences change - stops at the moment of death.

And God allows this to happen? Allows that people lose free will at death?

 

[jmcrae]

And God allows this to happen? Allows that people lose free will at death?

Yes - because of the free choice made by our ancestor, Adam.

What kind of God would He be, if He told Adam, if you sin, death will come into the world, and then Adam sins, and then God says, “Oh - I didn’t know you were really going to sin! Just kidding!” God can’t do that. God has to keep His promises - even those that involve negative consequences for us. Otherwise, He would not be acting fairly.

God allows many things that He doesn’t like, because of His justice. I don’t know why this particular thing is so surprising, or such a stumbling-block.

 

[aperture]

Yes - because of the free choice made by our ancestor, Adam.

What kind of God would He be, if He told Adam, if you sin, death will come into the world, and then Adam sins, and then God says, “Oh - I didn’t know you were really going to sin! Just kidding!” God can’t do that. God has to keep His promises - even those that involve negative consequences for us. Otherwise, He would not be acting fairly.

God allows many things that He doesn’t like, because of His justice. I don’t know why this particular thing is so surprising, or such a stumbling-block.

So God decided that the best way to let sinners come to Him was to make sure they couldn’t do that after he died? That doesn’t make any sense. Why would He ever even make that promise?

 

[jmcrae]

So God decided that the best way to let sinners come to Him was to make sure they couldn’t do that after he died?

After who died?

People can certainly come to Jesus, today. He rose again from the dead!

It’s we, who have to come to Jesus while we are still alive. You can’t sin your little heart out all your life, destroying other people right and left, and then expect to be able to convert your life to Jesus after you have died.

 

[aperture]

After who died?

People can certainly come to Jesus, today. He rose again from the dead!

It’s we, who have to come to Jesus while we are still alive. You can’t sin your little heart out all your life, destroying other people right and left, and then expect to be able to convert your life to Jesus after you have died.

The way I’m looking at it is like this:

God loves humans. He wants them to agree with Him and do what He says, since if humans do that then they will be able to join Him for eternal paradise. However, He must allow humans free will or else humans have no choice, and that eternal paradise is cheapened.

This free will means that humans can sin. God originally designed man so that man would not die, but also designed death as a consequence of sin.

My first issue is at this juncture. Why would God make death a consequence of sin? If God is really seeking to have as many people join Him as possible, then introducing death and thus removing a person’s ability to choose Him does not make sense.

 

[jmcrae]

The way I’m looking at it is like this:

God loves humans. He wants them to agree with Him and do what He says, since if humans do that then they will be able to join Him for eternal paradise.

Right.

However, He must allow humans free will or else humans have no choice, and that eternal paradise is cheapened.

Right, again. God doesn’t want slaves, or robots, or frightened people in Heaven. He wants people who freely love Him, without coercion.

This free will means that humans can sin. God originally designed man so that man would not die, but also designed death as a consequence of sin.

Right.

My first issue is at this juncture. Why would God make death a consequence of sin?

As a deterrent, so that people wouldn’t do it. Which is why He has to follow through on the deterrent - so that everyone else realizes that He’s not just kidding around.

If God is really seeking to have as many people join Him as possible, then introducing death and thus removing a person’s ability to choose Him does not make sense.

If we could continue to waffle along for all eternity, who would ever make a final choice for God? No - there has to be a decision point, where you’ve made your decision, and that’s it. Death is as good a time as any - and since, after death, we know what Hell is like, it wouldn’t be a free choice to choose Heaven - people would choose Heaven because they are terrified of Hell; not because they love God.

 

[WatchingMedia]

I’ve been thinking about this recently and am not quite sure how it would work. My understanding is that the Catholic church says that a mortal sin, unforgiven, condemns one to hell because one has chosen to turn away from God and made their choice to not go to Heaven.

However, I don’t “get” how doing something that displeases God is synonymous with choosing to not be with God. For example, Catholics are often encouraged to “love the sinner, hate the sin,” to separate the person from their behaviors.

Why, essentially, would we be required to love all that God loves in order to be with God? Is it not possible to love someone without loving all that they love?

Dear Doubting:
It would take up much space to discuss your question accurately.
Please read from cover to cover, the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” first printed in March 2000 in US, would be very helpful to you.
This is where you will get accurate answers on the teachings of the Catholic Church.
There are many many pages that will relate to the issue you are concerned about.

 

[curlycool89]

If we could continue to waffle along for all eternity, who would ever make a final choice for God? No - there has to be a decision point, where you’ve made your decision, and that’s it. Death is as good a time as any - and since, after death, we know what Hell is like, it wouldn’t be a free choice to choose Heaven - people would choose Heaven because they are terrified of Hell; not because they love God.

That’s pretty much what I was going to say.

It seems that my generation especially hates the idea of having iron clad deadlines. It’s coming up in the high schools now where “due dates” are being thrown out in favour of “fragile” egos. I’ve got news for those in high school: in university the dates are definite. Late homework is a 0 (for logistical reasons because it’s too hard to coordinate late homework because it’s dropped in a box and picked up once a week), late projects are very often 20% off per day and 0 after 3 (or 5) days. Midterms are non-rewritable (even for sickness, the percentage is just transfered to the final exam), and finals are only rewritable in specific circumstances (and once you start the final, you are unable to claim extenuating circumstances).

The real world works the same way. If you have a presentation next Tuesday, then it needs to be done by Monday. If you don’t get it done, you don’t get a “corporate confession”, you get fired.

God is much more forgiving than the real world, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no deadline. In salvation, it is a literal deadline. We get our one chance through life to do right. The Bible itself makes this very clear from Christ’s lips in Luke 16-31.

Please read from cover to cover, the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” first printed in March 2000 in US, would be very helpful to you.

The Catechism is a very good document, but reading it from cover to cover like a book is not recommended. I took a class on the Catechism, and there is a lot of background you need to have to understand many of the sections, stuff that a leisurely read through won’t get.

 

[aperture]

Right.
As a deterrent, so that people wouldn’t do it. Which is why He has to follow through on the deterrent - so that everyone else realizes that He’s not just kidding around.

Really? The best deterrent is to punish someone forever? That’s like training your puppy not to run into the street by shooting it whenever it does.

If we could continue to waffle along for all eternity, who would ever make a final choice for God?

Well, I’m assuming that if being with God is as amazing as it’s described, some people would make their way toward it and stay there.

No - there has to be a decision point, where you’ve made your decision, and that’s it. Death is as good a time as any - and since, after death, we know what Hell is like, it wouldn’t be a free choice to choose Heaven - people would choose Heaven because they are terrified of Hell; not because they love God.

It’s not a free choice because Heaven is so much better than Hell? So God wants to preserve free will even when a person wishes He wouldn’t? How is that loving?

 

[aperture]

That’s pretty much what I was going to say.

It seems that my generation especially hates the idea of having iron clad deadlines. It’s coming up in the high schools now where “due dates” are being thrown out in favour of “fragile” egos. I’ve got news for those in high school: in university the dates are definite. Late homework is a 0 (for logistical reasons because it’s too hard to coordinate late homework because it’s dropped in a box and picked up once a week), late projects are very often 20% off per day and 0 after 3 (or 5) days. Midterms are non-rewritable (even for sickness, the percentage is just transfered to the final exam), and finals are only rewritable in specific circumstances (and once you start the final, you are unable to claim extenuating circumstances).

The real world works the same way. If you have a presentation next Tuesday, then it needs to be done by Monday. If you don’t get it done, you don’t get a “corporate confession”, you get fired.

God is much more forgiving than the real world, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no deadline. In salvation, it is a literal deadline. We get our one chance through life to do right. The Bible itself makes this very clear from Christ’s lips in Luke 16-31.

The real-world comparisons are meaningless, because God is supposed to be infinite, as is our existence [if not our free will, apparently.] The only reason deadlines exist is because people know their lives are finite. When a being can literally exist forever deadlines don’t make any sense.

 

[curlycool89]

The real-world comparisons are meaningless, because God is supposed to be infinite, as is our existence [if not our free will, apparently.] The only reason deadlines exist is because people know their lives are finite. When a being can literally exist forever deadlines don’t make any sense.

Use some logic man, what’s the alternative. What exactly do you expect your soul to do after you die if not go to heaven/hell/(purgatory)? Just hang out? It’s not logical.

 

[aperture]

Use some logic man, what’s the alternative. What exactly do you expect your soul to do after you die if not go to heaven/hell/(purgatory)? Just hang out? It’s not logical.

I don’t think an eternal purgatory makes sense, but I don’t think eternal punishment makes sense either. The thing I most take issue with is the idea that we lose free will after death. Wouldn’t it make a lot more sense for a person to retain free will - to see that existence without God (as Hell is supposed to be) is incredibly awful and choose to exist with God? Tell me how God can be endlessly loving yet remove a person’s ability to choose. Tell me how that’s logical.

It just seems to me that the Catholic idea of God has some very human characteristics.

 

[curlycool89]

I don’t think an eternal purgatory makes sense, but I don’t think eternal punishment makes sense either. The thing I most take issue with is the idea that we lose free will after death. Wouldn’t it make a lot more sense for a person to retain free will - to see that existence without God (as Hell is supposed to be) is incredibly awful and choose to exist with God? Tell me how God can be endlessly loving yet remove a person’s ability to choose. Tell me how that’s logical.

So we’re just going to go down the path of ignoring the Bible then? I see you haven’t commented on that.

And it’s perfectly logical. Death is a major point that everyone will go through eventually, and therefore the perfectly logical place to have the choice locked in.

 

[aperture]

So we’re just going to go down the path of ignoring the Bible then? I see you haven’t commented on that.

And it’s perfectly logical. Death is a major point that everyone will go through eventually, and therefore the perfectly logical place to have the choice locked in.

My point in this thread was (or, more accurately, has become) to examine how the Catholic perception of the afterlife is logically consistent with the Catholic perception of an infinitely loving God.

What’s wrong with your second point is that there doesn’t seem to be any reason for a choice to be “locked in” at all, for free will to be removed. I can understand how a person could come to know God and simply not want anything else; I don’t understand why free will should be taken away, ever, if God really wants everyone to join Him.

 

[TedDC]

It just seems to me that the Catholic idea of God has some very human characteristics.

It sure does seem that way. In fairness, I think many religions do the same thing, projecting our human imperfections onto God and insisting that He behaves as we want our God to behave.

 

[jmcrae]

My point in this thread was (or, more accurately, has become) to examine how the Catholic perception of the afterlife is logically consistent with the Catholic perception of an infinitely loving God.

Infinitely loving is not the same as infinitely stupid. God is not your senile old Grandpa laughing toothlessly at your lame jokes in order to make you like him.

You have the opportunity to make your choice today, right now. If you blow it off, that’s not God’s problem. He isn’t going to pine around like a love-sick girl, hoping you’ll change your mind. He wants you to love Him, yes. But if you don’t, He will just move on to the next person. It’s your choice. He will not be harmed or offended if you choose to go to Hell instead. He’s not going to try to talk you into going with Him, or wait around for all eternity with His hands clasped in hope, while you waffle around and weigh your options.

 

[aperture]

Infinitely loving is not the same as infinitely stupid. God is not your senile old Grandpa laughing toothlessly at your lame jokes in order to make you like him.

You have the opportunity to make your choice today, right now. If you blow it off, that’s not God’s problem. He isn’t going to pine around like a love-sick girl, hoping you’ll change your mind. He wants you to love Him, yes. But if you don’t, He will just move on to the next person. It’s your choice. He will not be harmed or offended if you choose to go to Hell instead. He’s not going to try to talk you into going with Him, or wait around for all eternity with His hands clasped in hope, while you waffle around and weigh your options.

This is exactly what I’m talking about.

Your second paragraph portrays God as someone who’ll wait, but only for a while - He’s got other things to do. But If God is omnipotent, He doesn’t have to move on to the next person. This isn’t an omnipotent God, this is just a very powerful person.

I think that’s what happens when people try to look at something infinite through a finite lens.

 

[jmcrae]

This is exactly what I’m talking about.

Your second paragraph portrays God as someone who’ll wait, but only for a while - He’s got other things to do. But If God is omnipotent, He doesn’t have to move on to the next person. This isn’t an omnipotent God, this is just a very powerful person.

I think that’s what happens when people try to look at something infinite through a finite lens.

Look, the choice is available to you right now. It might not be there later. Don’t presume on God’s patience, nor on His mercy, nor spend your entire life dilly-dallying. Don’t invent a “nicey-nice” god for yourself who is sitting there waiting forever for you to make up your mind.

God is Love, but He is also Justice. You are not the most important thing in the Universe - He is.

 

[aperture]

Look, the choice is available to you right now. It might not be there later. Don’t presume on God’s patience, nor on His mercy, nor spend your entire life dilly-dallying. Don’t invent a “nicey-nice” god for yourself who is sitting there waiting forever for you to make up your mind.

The point is that no one’s been able [here, at least] to reconcile infinite love with infinite punishment.

God is Love, but He is also Justice. You are not the most important thing in the Universe - He is.

Again, this implies a God with limits. Someone who has to prioritize things because He can’t do everything. A God who actually, when a person dies, says “I no longer have time for you.” That is not an omnipotent, caring God.

 

[jmcrae]

The point is that no one’s been able [here, at least] to reconcile infinite love with infinite punishment.

Just because I can’t explain it to you in words of one syllable doesn’t mean that I don’t understand it. Infinite punishment isn’t from God - it’s from the person who chooses to live without God. God doesn’t force Himself upon us - it is our choice, whether to love Him or not, and our love for Him is expressed in our actions, here in this life.

Again, this implies a God with limits. Someone who has to prioritize things because He can’t do everything. A God who actually, when a person dies, says “I no longer have time for you.” That is not an omnipotent, caring God.

Yes, it is. God cares about you so much, that He will not allow you to vacillate forever, and nor will He force Himself upon you against your own will.