Dispensationalism, again

[Susan_Mary]

I’m one of those people who can never think of the right thing to say until the next day. But, this is not one of those times, I’m still drawing a blank.

One of my friends from work is a Evangelical Protestant. She is a strong believer in dispensationalism. For her, most everything in the news is a biblical prophesy of the end times. She goes on about a one world government and the antichrist, etc. It’s her favorite topic. I just politely smile and half listen to her until the subject changes. That is until today.

She was rambling on about something in Revelations as a prophecy of some current event. Then she asked me if I believe in the end times prophesy of Revelations and could I see those prophecies coming true in what’s going on today. I usually avoid this kind of conversation because I’m not a very good apologist. I stumbled along the best I could saying something about Revelation being written in symbolic language and people living during the war or some other catastrophe might have argued at the time that that was the ‘end times’ etc. I repeated 1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief at night.”

She said, “It was prophesied that Jesus will come again and he hasn’t yet. That’s proves prophecy is still going on.” I didn’t know what to say to that one and I still don’t. It just seems like a really weird thing to say.

She was obviously disappointed and became indignant and left. I know her well enough to say with certainty this topic will come up again and she’ll try to convert me to her way of thinking.

That’s were you guys come in. Thoughts?

 

[Luke65]

I stumbled along the best I could saying something about Revelation being written in symbolic language and people living during the war or some other catastrophe might have argued at the time that that was the ‘end times’ etc. I repeated 1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief at night.”

Ooh, well you’re lucky she didn’t catch you on that one, or maybe she didn’t know what the next verses say…

“While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thessalonians 5:3-4)

Yes, our Lord commands us to watch for the signs (Matt. 24:42, Luke 12:56). Unfortunately, our Catholic teachers leave much to be desired, and quote verses like the one you knew, but not the most important part!

She said, “It was prophesied that Jesus will come again and he hasn’t yet. That’s proves prophecy is still going on.” I didn’t know what to say to that one and I still don’t. It just seems like a really weird thing to say.

Well, she’s actually right about that…

“Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21)

“But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

Of course, the main problem, for your friend, is that true prophecy is to be found in the true Church. As a dispensationalist, she is probably far from correctly understanding the end-time prophecies. But it will be a lot of work for you to try and keep up with her, or refute her errors. I can make a number of recommendations, or you can PM me if you have any specific questions. God bless.

 

[North_of_Nod]

I don’t really know what the Catholic Church teaches about the End Times, to be honest. What your friend says is fascinating, but it’s all speculation at best. I would be interested to hear what our understanding of the End Times are, though.

 

[Luke65]

Well, the Catholic Church doesn’t have a whole lot of official interpretations on the end-time prophecies. This page and this page (and the next page) in the Catechism pretty well covers it, but that is the stuff most Catholics know. The main points, opposed to various Protestant beliefs, is that Millenialism is condemned, and the “Rapture”, where we will be “caught up” with our Lord “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), will happen on Judgment Day - not before. And before that will come the “Great Apostasy”, that Antichrist will capitalize on, and he will persecute all those who stay faithful to Christ. Before that is mostly speculation, but there are many prophecies from our Saints, Blesseds, and Venerables, along with Church approved private revelations like Fatima, that can help us prepare for what is to come.

There’s a long series of threads here that discuss this topic: End Times Speculation Part V (incl. links to the previous parts). And they have a lot of good resources too. The one book I recommend for Catholic prophecy is “Trial, Tribulation, and Triumph” by Desmond Birch. Read that book, and stay tuned here, and you’ll be set!

 

[promethius]

Ooh, well you’re lucky she didn’t catch you on that one, or maybe she didn’t know what the next verses say…

“While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thessalonians 5:3-4)

Yes, our Lord commands us to watch for the signs (Matt. 24:42, Luke 12:56). Unfortunately, our Catholic teachers leave much to be desired, and quote verses like the one you knew, but not the most important part!

You have personally interpreted the following verses, and I think that explains why you believe the church leaves something to be desired. 1 Thes 5:3-4 does not tell us to look for the end times in some sort of paranoia driven, news mongering, near panic. What the whole of it says to us is that the day and time of the second coming are unknown… but that as catholics we don’t HAVE to know. For us there is no theif in the night because the night is our sin, and if we live purely then we cannot be in night. In that manner, even though we do not know the time of the second coming, we are always ready for it.

The system cannot be cheated. We cannot discover that which Christ told us we cannot know with certainty. As such, we waste our time if we take our focus from living in the daylight and spend it setting up warnings against a theif we cannot predict. The church is right to encourage people to look for signs of right prophecy AND to ignore wasted effort that could be spent in keeping ourselves living in the light.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The coming of The Lord on “That Day” as a thief in the night is for 99.9999% of us the coming of the Lord at the hour of each of our deaths. No one knows when death comes and no one can change it and no one can escape it by any amount of worry. The strategy is to always be prepared and in grace and so in this manner “that Day” becomes a day of deliverance where one is taken from this earth to “The Promised Land”. If your friend wants to believe in the rapture then let her accept death as a rapture as if through the narrow door of Christ’s sufferings on the cross that we are all joined too in baptism. We must all join with Christ on that cross to enter through the door into heaven.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. The easy proof apart from scripture is to apply the simple logic that Jesus would never deny His People an opportunity to attain their highest honor of being a martyr. Why would Jesus pull us away into heaven just as the executioners axe was at hand when that is a moment of saintly glory to die for Christ and be rewarded a martyers reward? No, there is no pattern in history of Jesus ever denying his most beloved from the honor of being his martyrs. Just as John The Baptist, St. Stephen, St. Paul, St. Peter and the first 18 or so martyred popes. To be accounted among this company should be an honor of the higest esteem.

Goodness gracious - let us hope there is no rapture - only a Protestant could desire to escape the means to achieve a work that brings one the higest eternal glory. It is truly amazing grace indeed that can save such wretched and wanting thinking.

The other .0001% of us who somehow manage to escape every opportunity to be a martyr and are alive at the last tick of time get to witness the closing curtain and turn off the lights on the old way. I feel sorry for these since everyone else in the family will already have been dead to this world and been partying early in heaven.

If your friend wants to feel secure in her paranoia offer to sell her a ticket on the rapture bus to relieve her fears and then donate the proceeds to Peter’s Pence as a penance for the sin of paying her so much attention. At worst that will get her mind of the whole matter and change the topic so she can feel comfort in whining about Catholics and their systems of indulgences. Putting up with that might actually save you some purgatory time.

James

 

[JustaServant]

Ask these questions:

Let’s start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).

Quote:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

?

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Disys say that there is a ‘church age gap’ between verse 26 and 27.
Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.

2. Dispys say that the ‘prince that shall come’ in verse 26 is different than ‘Messiah the Prince’ of verse 25.
How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.

Also:

**3.**Please find ANY referance of the ‘rapture’ in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.

4. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.

5. Find ‘seven year tribulation’ in the Bible.

6. Find ‘revived Roman Empire’ anywhere in the Bible.

7. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.

I have NEVER found a dispensationalist who has ever been able to answer ANY of these simple questions.
You might want to back off several feet as they self-destruct.

 

[JustaServant]

Dispensationalism creates two classes of God’s people, yet God’s people are truly one in all ages.
Dispensationalism is built on the false dichotomy of physical (“Israel”) vs. spiritual (church).
Dispensationalism would rather keep the partition wall between Jews and Gentiles up, rather than see Christ who has torn it down.
Dispensationalism is inherently Marcionite, considering the Scriptures of the OT to be for Israel and not us.
Thus Dispensationalism is inherently antinomian, seeing the law for Israel but grace for the church.

 

[Luke65]

You have personally interpreted the following verses, and I think that explains why you believe the church leaves something to be desired.

I did NOT say “the church leaves something to be desired.” Why in the world would you twist my words like that? I said that “our Catholic teachers leave much to be desired,” and if you can’t recognize the difference between those two statements, well then, thank you for proving my point.

 

[Axion]

Catholic end-times belief is largely based on Jesus’s teachings in Matthew. A time of apostasy, a short period of extreme tribulation (kept short because Christians remain on earth and are NOT “raptured” away), and the unmistakable coming of Christ in Glory with his angels.

Unofficially the messages of Fatima have been considered by many to have end-times relevance.

 

[North_of_Nod]

Well, the Catholic Church doesn’t have a whole lot of official interpretations on the end-time prophecies. This page and this page (and the next page) in the Catechism pretty well covers it, but that is the stuff most Catholics know. The main points, opposed to various Protestant beliefs, is that Millenialism is condemned, and the “Rapture”, where we will be “caught up” with our Lord “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), will happen on Judgment Day - not before. And before that will come the “Great Apostasy”, that Antichrist will capitalize on, and he will persecute all those who stay faithful to Christ. Before that is mostly speculation, but there are many prophecies from our Saints, Blesseds, and Venerables, along with Church approved private revelations like Fatima, that can help us prepare for what is to come.

There’s a long series of threads here that discuss this topic: End Times Speculation Part V (incl. links to the previous parts). And they have a lot of good resources too. The one book I recommend for Catholic prophecy is “Trial, Tribulation, and Triumph” by Desmond Birch. Read that book, and stay tuned here, and you’ll be set!

Cool beans. Thanks for the info! I know we shouldn’t be fixated on the End Times, but it’s so interesting! Hehe.

 

[promethius]

I did NOT say “the church leaves something to be desired.” Why in the world would you twist my words like that? I said that “our Catholic teachers leave much to be desired,” and if you can’t recognize the difference between those two statements, well then, thank you for proving my point.

There is nothing for them to leave to be desired, however. What is taught is what the church teaches: we should live in the daylight because we cannot know the hour. That is contrary to what you’re seeming to imply here: that we both can and are commanded to try and look for signs of the end of the world.

This woman the OP is dealing with is paranoid. I’m certainly unwilling to accept that our faith should be about sharing in her paranoia rather than in God’s ordination of us to good works of faith and charity.

 

[CentralFLJames]

What is laughable about the whole rapture thing is that the fundamentalist completly REVERSE the bible interpretation in some of the popular verses that they think support “the rapture”. It’s all very poor scripture comprehension.

for example Luke 17:32-37 is a popular verse the pre-tribbers use.

Luke 17:32-37
“Remember Lot’s wife. 33 “Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 “I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 “There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 “Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.” 37 And answering they said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”

But all of the pre-tribbers misinterpret the context of the verse in reference to Lot’s wife and what happens to those who think they can save their life - they get “caught up” all right - but its exactly the opposite of what one wants. The person left behind is the one who survives NOT the one who is taken. The people who are taken are those that are destroyed and their carcass placed where the vultures are - hell.

The scripture convention is the wicked are the ones who are removed or annihilated and the just are preserved.

Here are just a few examples of scripture proofs:

Reference the Parable of the wheat and tares:

Matthew 13:24-30
Gather together first the tares. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity…

Examine just a few of the many proverbs and psalms:
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take away the dross from the silver…Take away the wicked from before the King…

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever.

there are dozens more…​

I never in my life imagined so many people could get so wealthy writing books with such incompetent scripture interpretation. In the old days they would fail the incompetent out of theology school. But these days of no child left behind there seems to be plenty of people willing to throw a lot of money at the C- and D theology level students writing paperback fictions while imagining them scholarly works. It’s insanely laughable.

“There’s a sucker born every minute”
– P.T. Barnum (1810 – 1891).

James

 

[Zooey]

What is laughable about the whole rapture thing is that the fundamentalist completly REVERSE the bible interpretation in some of the popular verses that they think support “the rapture”. It’s all very poor scripture comprehension.

for example Luke 17:32-37 is a popular verse the pre-tribbers use.

Luke 17:32-37
“Remember Lot’s wife. 33 “Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 “I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 “There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 “Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.” 37 And answering they said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”

But all of the pre-tribbers misinterpret the context of the verse in reference to Lot’s wife and what happens to those who think they can save their life - they get “caught up” all right - but its exactly the opposite of what one wants. The person left behind is the one who survives NOT the one who is taken. The people who are taken are those that are destroyed and their carcass placed where the vultures are - hell.

The scripture convention is the wicked are the ones who are removed or annihilated and the just are preserved.

Here are just a few examples of scripture proofs:

Reference the Parable of the wheat and tares:

Matthew 13:24-30
Gather together first the tares. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity…

Examine just a few of the many proverbs and psalms:
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed.

Proverbs 25:4,5 Take away the dross from the silver…Take away the wicked from before the King…

Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever.

there are dozens more…​

I never in my life imagined so many people could get so wealthy writing books with such incompetent scripture interpretation. In the old days they would fail the incompetent out of theology school. But these days of no child left behind there seems to be plenty of people willing to throw a lot of money at the C- and D theology level students writing paperback fictions while imagining them scholarly works. It’s insanely laughable.

*“There’s a sucker born every minute” *
– P.T. Barnum (1810 – 1891).

James

What James said.
Really, I used to be a dispensationalist…until I read the Scriptures without my “dispensational glasses” on.
That was then I discovered that, indeed, the Bible does not support dispensationalism. In order to find it in the Scriptures, you had to read with a book on the subject sitting there, at my side, checking to see what this verse “really means”…except of course, that when you looked at it logically, the Bible said no such thing.
But if, as most of my former fellows do, you read LaHaye or Lindsay or [insert popular dispensationalist of choice] first, and then look into the Bible, you will see exactly what they want you to see.
I kinda hesitate to say this about fellow believers in Christ, but they really are using misdirection like a stage magician…

 

[Lev23]

I’m one of those people who can never think of the right thing to say until the next day. But, this is not one of those times, I’m still drawing a blank.

One of my friends from work is a Evangelical Protestant. She is a strong believer in dispensationalism. For her, most everything in the news is a biblical prophesy of the end times. She goes on about a one world government and the antichrist, etc. It’s her favorite topic. I just politely smile and half listen to her until the subject changes. That is until today.

She was rambling on about something in Revelations as a prophecy of some current event. Then she asked me if I believe in the end times prophesy of Revelations and could I see those prophecies coming true in what’s going on today. I usually avoid this kind of conversation because I’m not a very good apologist. I stumbled along the best I could saying something about Revelation being written in symbolic language and people living during the war or some other catastrophe might have argued at the time that that was the ‘end times’ etc. I repeated 1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief at night.”

She said, “It was prophesied that Jesus will come again and he hasn’t yet. That’s proves prophecy is still going on.” I didn’t know what to say to that one and I still don’t. It just seems like a really weird thing to say.

She was obviously disappointed and became indignant and left. I know her well enough to say with certainty this topic will come up again and she’ll try to convert me to her way of thinking.

That’s were you guys come in. Thoughts?

Maybe if you do more than just “half-listen” to your friend, you will know how to respond better and avoid a possible rift between you two.

Some of these responses on this thread that you requested find your friend’s view “laughable”, she is “paranoid”, etc. Make sure you find a mature and charitable catholic apologetic to help you out.

One thing your friend believes(as I do) is going on in the news and prophecy, is Israel. Scripture says that Israel will be regathered in the last days which will ultimately to her full restoration. Israel is going through alot of labor pains, starting from her ongoing regathering to the land in unbelief, to the nations attacking, and attempting to divide her from the land and ultimately Jerusalem.

Google “dividing Jerusalem”(or anything similar) in the “news” search.

Looking around you to determine the prophetic season is not being “paranoid”.

St.Peter on the transfiguration, the second coming of Christ, the “word of the prophets made more certain” to pay more attention to, and the origin of prophecy-
**2 Peter 1:12-21
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.**

 

[Lev23]

What is laughable about the whole rapture thing is that the fundamentalist completly REVERSE the bible interpretation in some of the popular verses that they think support “the rapture”. It’s all very poor scripture comprehension.

“There’s a sucker born every minute”
– P.T. Barnum (1810 – 1891).

James

I find it amazing(and sad) how much hate and falsehood is throw at pre-tribulation rapture view. Not surprising, but at the base of this view is the disbelief that Israel will be used by God and ultimately restored by the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Whenever “pre-trib rapture” is discussed, false hoods like “escapism”, “keeping the wall of partition up between Jews and Gentiles”, are listed. Then there are the links to blogs, articles, etc., etc. to wipe the floor of the pre-trib rapture view.

But just recently, one catholic forum member(1600+ posts) continues their posting of how the gentiles are solely the chosen people, and the Jews of old where used just to bring Messiah to the gentile nations. Very few members here ever try to correct this view.

I find it is “all very poor scripture comprehension” to remove Israel from the prophecy of scripture.

 

[JustaServant]

I find it amazing(and sad) how much hate and falsehood is throw at pre-tribulation rapture view. Not surprising, but at the base of this view is the disbelief that Israel will be used by God and ultimately restored by the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Whenever “pre-trib rapture” is discussed, false hoods like “escapism”, “keeping the wall of partition up between Jews and Gentiles”, are listed. Then there are the links to blogs, articles, etc., etc. to wipe the floor of the pre-trib rapture view.

But just recently, one catholic forum member(1600+ posts) continues their posting of how the gentiles are solely the chosen people, and the Jews of old where used just to bring Messiah to the gentile nations. Very few members here ever try to correct this view.

I find it is “all very poor scripture comprehension” to remove Israel from the prophecy of scripture.

Interested in answering these questions?

Let’s start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).

Quote:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

?

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Disys say that there is a ‘church age gap’ between verse 26 and 27.
   Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.
2. Dispys say that the ‘prince that shall come’ in verse 26 is different than ‘Messiah the Prince’ of verse 25.
   How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.

Also:

3.Please find ANY referance of the ‘rapture’ in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.

1. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
   PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.
2. Find ‘seven year tribulation’ in the Bible.
3. Find ‘revived Roman Empire’ anywhere in the Bible.
4. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I find it amazing(and sad) how much hate and falsehood is throw at pre-tribulation rapture view. Not surprising, but at the base of this view is the disbelief that Israel will be used by God and ultimately restored by the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Whenever “pre-trib rapture” is discussed, false hoods like “escapism”, “keeping the wall of partition up between Jews and Gentiles”, are listed. Then there are the links to blogs, articles, etc., etc. to wipe the floor of the pre-trib rapture view.

But just recently, one catholic forum member(1600+ posts) continues their posting of how the gentiles are solely the chosen people, and the Jews of old where used just to bring Messiah to the gentile nations. Very few members here ever try to correct this view.

I find it is “all very poor scripture comprehension” to remove Israel from the prophecy of scripture.

1. For the record I hate no one - there is way too much entertainment value and opportunity lost on hatred. Those who will jump through every hoop to make themselves appear conspicuously foolish deserve an audience for the labors as well as their just wage (laughter and applause for the show).
2. If there is any falsehood being put out about what pre-tribbers believe it is only because there are a legion of competing purveyors of this new neo-Christian theory (never taught by a single apostle) who are all trying tell us what the bible is “teaching us”. Don’t blame me for that. That is the nature and effect of the free-range simony-market that is hawking “private interpretation for fee” in the same manner that vendors sell fennel cakes at the flea-market.

The neo-Christians are afraid of actually being held to the necessity of suffering in Christ as an obligation of baptism. So some enterprising opportunists in their ranks want to profit by that and do so by selling “rapture insurance” by professing to have unlocked secret knowledge (a form of gnosticism) to escape that unpleasantness. The falsehood is in the nature of the beast and in the cacophony of opinions emanating from the new leaning tower of babel. A new construct they are trying to manufacture as a replacement to the monolithic and sound structure of The One Holy Catholic Church - the Church that is aligned on the cornerstone of Christ and built firmly on the bedrock of Peter.

1. Your base assessment that Catholics disbelief that Israel will be used by God and ultimately restored by the second coming of Jesus Christ is just plain silly. Catholics KNOW that a remnant of the Jews will be saved, repent and become converts to Catholicism in the last days and have been teaching this from long ago.

I can’t speak for the fact that one Catholic spoke out in error and was not corrected since I didn’t see it. I always correct fellow Catholics when I see them making errors. Perhaps it was a poor thread that had few participants?

James

 

[promethius]

But just recently, one catholic forum member(1600+ posts) continues their posting of how the gentiles are solely the chosen people, and the Jews of old where used just to bring Messiah to the gentile nations. Very few members here ever try to correct this view.

No one tried to correct it because that’s not what was actually said. Should I send a link to that member so that he can defend his word here against what you’re portraying it as?

 

[JustaServant]

I still await a dispensationalist who has the answers to the questions I posed.