Dispensationalism, again

[JustaServant]

Let’s start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).

Quote:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

?

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Disys say that there is a ‘church age gap’ between verse 26 and 27.
Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.
It’s not there.

2. Dispys say that the ‘prince that shall come’ in verse 26 is different than ‘Messiah the Prince’ of verse 25.
How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.
It is an assumption. Daniel did not change the subject, he is still talking about the same Person. To ‘assume’ makes no grammanical or logical sense. It cannot be drawn out of the text.
Also:

**3.**Please find ANY referance of the ‘rapture’ in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.
One cannot.

4. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.
One cannot.

5. Find ‘seven year tribulation’ in the Bible.
One cannot.

6. Find ‘revived Roman Empire’ anywhere in the Bible.
One cannot.

7. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.
One cannot.

 

[Writer]

How can you say Christ is lost in discussions when the topic at hand is when Jesus Christ is coming for his Church?

I can understand your confusion, but as a former Protestant these discussions were often ultimately distracting from what it meant to live as a follower of Christ, or as “little Christs” as a friend of mine likes to put it. That’s one of the reasons that the Catholic emphasis is more balanced, calm, and reasoned than much of thinking in the Fundamentalist churches we attended (as well as the Free Methodist university my wife and I attended in Seattle). It’s also interesting to note what an endtimes focus can ultimately lead to in the matter of faith. Take the Jehova Witnesses, for example. While I would characterize them as closer to a cult than any kind of Christian denomination, it can be instructive to see where this excited focus on endtimes theology has led those misguided believers.

The bottom line is that we need have a good foundational knowledge in this area of theology, but, if we find ourselves too concerned with these matters on a daily basis, we can wind-up compromising our walk with Christ–because we’re not really looking at Him, but debating the interpretations of men. It’s really a matter of trust in Christ. We trust that He will return, but looking for the signs around every corner and adopting endtimes theology which is not based on Scripture or tradition, just opens ourselves up to being the target of the enemy.

(For good resources regarding the Catholic concept of endtimes, see my previous posts. Understanding the historical history of the different endtimes views was also very helpful for our family to begin to move towards a more balanced view.)

 

[Lev23]

Lev you are preaching to the choir here and making strawman arguments.

How many times do we Catholics have to tell you that the remnant of the Jews will be converted in the last days before the 2nd comming? THIS has been a Catholic teaching from the beginning. What you don’t seem willing to acknowledge is that the conversion means that the Jews enter into the Catholic Church. It may be that Jews get their own rite but will embrace the same faith as do Catholics. Those who do not will not be part of the elect.

James

Nice try, but I’m not preaching to the whole choir or “we catholics”. Im just looking at “you”, the one choir member who made such a boast over the branches. I don’t think you will find anything remotely close to this in your sheet music, I mean the catechism(or the scriptures for that matter)-

Start Blessing The Lord who in His Mercy has not entirely obliterated The Jews for rejecting Him and breaking His covenants.

James

 

[Luke65]

Nice try, but I’m not preaching to the whole choir or “we catholics”. Im just looking at “you”, the one choir member who made such a boast over the branches. I don’t think you will find anything remotely close to this in your sheet music, I mean the catechism(or the scriptures for that matter)-

That’s strange, I thought he was referring to scriptures like this:

Deuteronomy 32 (NIV)

26 I said I would scatter them
and blot out their memory from mankind,

27 but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,
lest the adversary misunderstand
and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;
the LORD has not done all this.’ "

28 They are a nation without sense,
there is no discernment in them.

29 If only they were wise and would understand this
and discern what their end will be!

If only you were wise and could discern what their end will be. Oh, the resurrection of Israel was prophesied in the Bible all right, its just too bad you don’t know where.

 

[Lev23]

Let’s start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).

Quote:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

?

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Disys say that there is a ‘church age gap’ between verse 26 and 27.
Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.
It’s not there.

2. Dispys say that the ‘prince that shall come’ in verse 26 is different than ‘Messiah the Prince’ of verse 25.
How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.
It is an assumption. Daniel did not change the subject, he is still talking about the same Person. To ‘assume’ makes no grammanical or logical sense. It cannot be drawn out of the text.
Also:

**3.**Please find ANY referance of the ‘rapture’ in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.
One cannot.

4. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.
One cannot.

5. Find ‘seven year tribulation’ in the Bible.
One cannot.

6. Find ‘revived Roman Empire’ anywhere in the Bible.
One cannot.

7. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.
One cannot.

Again, childish questions. Remove Israel(the land and people) from prophecy and you come away with one-liner answers of “one cannot”.

What makes me say this, your point #7 gives it away. You see nothing prophetic about the ongoing restoration of the land and people of Israel today.

 

[Lev23]

That’s strange, I thought he was referring to scriptures like this:

If only you were wise and could discern what their end will be. Oh, the resurrection of Israel was prophesied in the Bible all right, its just too bad you don’t know where.

Here is another one that takes a one-liner of Jewish literature to say the Jewish nation of Israel is no more.

Keep reading on in the prophets.

 

[Lev23]

I’m one of those people who can never think of the right thing to say until the next day. But, this is not one of those times, I’m still drawing a blank.

For her, most everything in the news is a biblical prophesy of the end times.

That’s were you guys come in. Thoughts?

So far the people in the “That’s were you guys come in.” are going after Israel’s importance in prophecy to undermine what has been happening in the present day. So far what I have gathered from their recommendations is to remove Israel from prophecy, cover your eyes and ears from the facts of what is happenening in Israel and the world today, and say “it cannot be found” in the bible.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Nice try, but I’m not preaching to the whole choir or “we catholics”. Im just looking at “you”, the one choir member who made such a boast over the branches. I don’t think you will find anything remotely close to this in your sheet music, I mean the catechism(or the scriptures for that matter)-

Right back at ya Lev. Nice try to alienate me in my own home. Here’s the rest of the choir bro - the catechism and the scripture references to back it and papal bulls and encyclicals as well - brass, woodwind and percussion.

Catholic Catechism

*674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. 568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” 569 St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” 570 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, 571 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”. 572

568 Rom 11:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39; 569 Acts 3:19-21; 570 Rom 11:15; 571 Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24;572 Eph 4:13; I Cor 15:28

755 "The Church is a cultivated field, the tillage of God. On that land the ancient olive tree grows whose holy roots were the prophets and in which the reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles has been brought about and will be brought about again. That land, like a choice vineyard, has been planted by the heavenly cultivator. Yet the true vine is Christ who gives life and fruitfulness to the branches, that is, to us, who through the Church remain in Christ, without whom we can do nothing. 147

147 LG 6; Cf. I Cor 3:9; Rom 11:13-26; Mt 21:32-43 and parallels; Isa 51-7; Jn 15:1-5.

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” 325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 326 “the first to hear the Word of God.” 327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, 328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” 329

325 LG 16;326 Cf. NA 4.;327 Roman Missal, Good Friday 13: General Intercessions, VI.; 328 Rom 9:4-5.*

---

I’d recommend you try to seperate your rage against people who disagree with you from the facts of the message they speak - you just might learn something that might benefit YOU personally some day - since not all the Jews will make it just like not all the Gentiles will. And if you do not come into the Catholic Church yourself and partake of the apostolic sacraments - you might be on the wrong bus youself.

If you would like to read a good Catholic book of Prophecy on Jews in the end times and in other minor Catholic prophecies I’d recommend:
Trial, Tribulation & Triumph: Before, During, and After Antichrist (Desmond A. Birch)

James

 

[Paul3144]

A good book that debunks this wacky Rapture theology is The Rapture Exposed by the Rev. Barbara Rossing.

What Rapture people do is they pick and choose Bible verses out of context and then put them together. For example, they’ll take the passage in Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians about rising and meeting Christ in the air, and the passage about one being taken and the other left, throw in a little Rev. 20 and Dan. 9, strip it of all context, and use it to support their views.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I did some more research on the matter concerning the Jews and the end-time conversion and have a few corrections to make.

I made comments previously that a remnant of the Jews will be saved in mass at the 2nd comming. I wish to retract this. This is NOT the consensus interpretation of the Church Fathers. Only around 12 of the 100 Church fathers who comment on the eschatological period believe that a large scale conversion of the Jews and a restoration of the nation of Israel and temple worship will take place. This is WRONG. There is no restoration of Temple Worship - it is GONE forever. God put an end to it and advanced His covenant with the Catholic Church and her perfect sacrifice of the representation of Christ Crucified in its daily masses.

The notion of restoring the Jewish nation at the 2nd comming is utterly WRONG - it is a Zionist fantasy. The Catholic Church is God’s focus now and the principal vehicle by which God apportions saving grace to His People. Jews just like all Gentiles MUST become Catholic before they die and before the 2nd comming or they are at substantial risk of not being among the elect.

The Jews were the first to be saved in the early Church. The Jews were the apostles and were the initial partakers in the NT Church. So God HAS been converting Jews to The Church from day one and is continuing to save them to this very day. Thus a remnant of the Jews will be saved by converting to Catholicism - even up to right before the 2nd comming. But those Jews and Gentiles who are not converted to Catholicism by the 2nd comming are going to have to face Jesus as just Judge and it will go very bad for those who did not take advantage of this period of Mercy and Reconciliation.

So, while God certainly could do a mass conversion of the Jews before the 2nd comming this view can’t be demonstrated from Scripture. Further only a very few patristics support this view. It is much more consistent with Scripture to believe that God is saving the Jews currently, who accept Jesus Christ, “in the same manner” as the Gentiles, that is, through the grace of the New Covenant. There is NO favoritism in the NT covenant of grace.

It is Zionists who forward the fantasy dream in a restoration of Temple worship and sacrifice in Jerusalem during the millennium. There is NO millennium. There is NO restoration of Israel as a Nation except through conversion individually into the Catholic Church. Jews MUST individually convert. The Zionist view is not only anti-Scriptural, it is anti-Christian. Paul repeatedly condemned the observance of Jewish rituals throughout his epistles (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians). The Church has also declared that any observance of the Jewish law is “alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation” (Council of Florence). God would not create a new universal nation of God that is formed on a covenant of grace and have a double standard where the Jews can continue under the OT ways. Nope.

In fact, at the first sign of the restoration of the Jewish Temple we can be sure anti-Christ is incarnate since it is anti-Christian to revert to Judaic practices. Thus Zionism is Satanic and pure anti-Christ - and this would be in the same pattern of Judas the betrayer AKA the **Son of Perdition **(see John 17:12. See this man’s interesting theory: THE ANTICHRIST WILL BE JUDAS REINCARNATED ). The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia states that the future Antichrist would be “of Jewish extraction, from the tribe of Dan”. The 1936 edition stated that he would “rebuild Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple, in which he will set himself up as God.” Paul warned us of this very event when he said “the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God” (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

Zionism thinking has worked itself into the pre-tribber rapture camps and these confused souls are actually aiding and abetting the advancement of a Zionist agenda that is pure anti-Catholic and anti-Scriptural. Thus Zionism viz Dispensationalism is an anti-Catholic movement that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies.

Catholics must never loose focus that God’s divine plan is focused on the Catholic Church as the new arc which carries “the elect” of God to the promised land. Jews must convert and get on board or be left behind.

James