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javid
Guest
Are disputed books, such as meccabees, are words of God as Canonical Gospels & Torah, are words of God, in Church’s belief?
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Church_Militant
Guest
The only dispute is modern from the last 500 years or so. Prior to that the issue of the canon was settled in the 4th century.
See The Deuterocanonical Books of the Catholic Bible
See The Deuterocanonical Books of the Catholic Bible
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JerryZ
Guest
Uhmm I am sorry
Disputed? By whom?The Canon was decided in 350 AD or thereabouts.
1300 years later someone following the advise of the OT that was being used by the Jews in the diaspora that missed some of the ORIGINAL books in the OT decided to trust the latter rather than the former.
The Septuagiant OT was quoted extensively by St. Paul almost verbatim.
But alas the geniuses of the reformation trusted the OT in sure by the Jews at this time (the reformation) than what St Paul used.
AND decided that these books were NOT inspired.
I would ask you was a council convened of all the Bishops of the Church to discuss and approve this?
So if none was convened by what AUTHORITY they did this?
Also and as a confirmation of all of this GOD in His providence has allowed ORIGINAL manuscripts to come to us in the present day that SHOW some of those books were INDEED part of the repository of Faith from the OT. (The Dead Sea Scrolls)
Peace
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rfournier103
Guest
I don’t think there’s ANY dispute at all, is there? 
What books are disputed?
What books are disputed?
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rfournier103
Guest
Our (Catholic) OT was the Canon read by Jesus when He walked among us. The JEWS (NOT the Christians!) later decided that some of the OT books weren’t inspired. I think if those books were not inspired, Jesus would have known, and maybe even said something… I look at it this way; if that Canon was good enough for Jesus, it is CERTAINLY good enough for us!Uhmm I am sorry
The Canon was decided in 350 AD or thereabouts.
1300 years later someone following the advise of the OT that was being used by the Jews in the diaspora that missed some of the ORIGINAL books in the OT decided to trust the latter rather than the former.
The Septuagiant OT was quoted extensively by St. Paul almost verbatim.
But alas the geniuses of the reformation trusted the OT in sure by the Jews at this time (the reformation) than what St Paul used.
AND decided that these books were NOT inspired.
I would ask you was a council convened of all the Bishops of the Church to discuss and approve this?
So if none was convened by what AUTHORITY they did this?
Also and as a confirmation of all of this GOD in His providence has allowed ORIGINAL manuscripts to come to us in the present day that SHOW some of those books were INDEED part of the repository of Faith from the OT. (The Dead Sea Scrolls)
Peace
PS: There’s an exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston on the Dead Sea Scrolls. I hope to get down there before the exhibit ends in October. Can’t wait to go!
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TheDoctor
Guest
No books in the canon of scripture are disputed. Not all are accepted by those outside the faith, but that may be another thread.
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fallow_spirit
Guest
As far as the Catholic Church is concerned those books ceased to be disputed at the very least 500 years ago (if you want to be very liberal about it) so yes, she does accept them. Not as Torah though, the Torah is only the first five books of the Bible.
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Todd977
Guest
Yes. The Catholic Church believes the books of Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and longer versions of Esther and Daniel are just as much the words of the God as the canonical Gospels and the Torah.
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javid
Guest
O.K. I meant disputed among all cults.
How can we prove that these books are canonical like other holy books of Bible?
And, did ever Lord Jesus and his Apostles referred to them?
How can we prove that these books are canonical like other holy books of Bible?
And, did ever Lord Jesus and his Apostles referred to them?
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Church_Militant
Guest
You’ll find a pretty comprehensive list of the references you seek at Deuterocanon
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JerryZ
Guest
javid, If they were not inspired they would have never made it to the Canon in the first place.
The Bible was Canonized around 350 AD the “revision” that removed those books ocurred around late 1500.
Was the Church mistaken for 1500 years?
Further if we take the premise of those that removed these books to the ultimate logical consequence. WE HAVE NO BIBLE. NONE of it can be deemed infallible.
Because IF they made a mistake with them
What assurance do we have of the rest?As for the other part of your question, yes of course we can prove that Jesus and His Apostles quote passages that ONLY appear in some of those books.
These books ARE a part of the Septugiant, the OT that was IN USE at the time of Jesus by ALL the Jews that spoke greek (Which VASTLY OUTNUMBERED those that spoke Hebrew by the way).
This by the way is easely proven by the fact that the Sanhedrin at the time ALLOWED the translation of the OT INTO greek.
Why would they have done it?
To convert the gentiles??? NONSENSE
Prior to Jesus NO JEW would even EAT with a gentile never mind trying to convert him.
The Septugiant was compiled about 350 BC so not terribly old but not something “novel” either.
Hope this helps.
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fallow_spirit
Guest
Maybe I am misreading your post but are you trying to imply that you think the Catholic Church is a cult?
The Church recognized those books as scripture using the same criteria used for the recognition of the other books:
- authorship is of apostolic origin
- agrees with orthodox church doctrine
- is widely dispersed among the church at large
short answer: we have no idea, and it really doesn’t matter
long answer: Within all the documents and archeological evidence we have on our hands today, there isn’t any place where Jesus makes a direct unambiguous reference to one of the deuteros, though there are a few places where Jesus (and the NT in general) might have alluded to one or more of these books. But at the same time, none of us were alive during the time Jesus walked the earth, so we do not know all the things he said when he was alive. He very well could have referred to one of the deuterocanon but either no one saw the worth in writing it down, or the record became lost sometime between the 1st century and modern times. In the long run though, the issue of whether or not Jesus referred to these books is irrelevant because there are various of other OT books that Jesus seemingly doesn’t make reference to, and no one argues that they should be kicked out of the canon. And besides, Christ making a reference wasn’t one of the criteria used for inclusion in the biblical canon anyways.
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javid
Guest
Did Jerome( 347 – 420) believe in these book?
po18guy
Well-known member
Jerome who? You mean Saint Jerome? Well, he is a Saint for, among other things, realizing that he, by himself, was not smarter than the Church. Personally, he had his doubts, but out of obedience to the Church, included the 7 books as requested by Pope Damasus I. Do you believe, as Jerome did, in the Apostolic Church, the seven Sacraments, the Priesthood, and the Pope as head of the Church of Christ? Jerome did.
But, wait! Are you forgetting the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches? 300+ million members. They also have valid apostolic succession that traces directly to the Apostles, and yes, they have also held these 7 books as canonical since day 1.
So, it’s not just a “Catholic thing”
In truth, after the “reformers” rejected the Catholic Church, they went to the Jews and adopted the canon of the Pharisees. The Pharisees! Jesus condemned the Pharisees seven-fold in Matthew 23! That is a complete and total condemnation by our Lord. Who on earth would want anything to do with them and their decisions? Something to think about.
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