Disrespect toward Islam on this Forum

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Well, to me, John 15:17 applies to only Christians. Christians are told to love one another because Jesus was talking to his disciples.

This does not include non-believers.

Mark 11:25 also does not talk about ‘loving’ disbelievers. To forgive someone does not mean to love or respect them. It just means to ‘forgive’ them.

I forgive those who trespass against me, but heck if I’m going to respect them.

 

[Sixtus]

Mark 11:25 also does not talk about ‘loving’ disbelievers. To forgive someone does not mean to love or respect them. It just means to ‘forgive’ them.

To say ‘I forgive you but I will not love you, I will offend you and be disrespectful towards you’ is to say that I do not really love you and if I do not really love you then I have not forgiven you and if I have not done that then I am a hypocrit

Our first Pontiff bids us 'do not repay wrong with wrong , abuse with abuse, on the contrary retaiate with a blessing 1Ptr3:9

Our first Pontiff also prepares us by warning: ‘My dear friends do not be bewildered by the fiery ordeal that is upon you, as though it were something extraordinary’ 1Ptr 4: 12-13.

He goes onto say: 'If you suffer, it must not be for infringing the rights of others 1Ptr 4: 15-16.

Then our first Pontiff finishes by bidding us ‘Peace to you all’ 5:14

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

To each his own, I fear.

Forgiveness, to me, is not the same as love and respect. I may forgive someone who has trespassed against me, but that does not mean I love and respect them.

I can forgive someone and still disrespect them - they have lost my respect by doing what they have done to trespass against me.

 

[sneakers]

People no matter what religion have to earn respect. I just don’t give respect away because someone say I have to respect them.

My grandfather once told me, “Respect is earned not deserved.”
He told me that when I was 12 years old and I live by it.

I know all Islam is not bad. But the good is not standing up against the bad. If the good Islam wants to be respected then they have to take a stronger stance against the bad Islam, and I just don’t see that happening.

Very well said. You have absolutely nailed it, my friend!

God bless,
sneakers

 

[Sixtus]

I can forgive someone and still disrespect them -

That is for you my friend

I cannot, to me, love and respect are two sides of the same coin

God bless

 

[Booklover]

To say ‘I forgive you but I will not love you, I will offend you and be disrespectful towards you’ is to say that I do not really love you and if I do not really love you then I have not forgiven you and if I have not done that then I am a hypocrit

Our first Pontiff bids us 'do not repay wrong with wrong , abuse with abuse, on the contrary retaiate with a blessing 1Ptr3:9

Our first Pontiff also prepares us by warning: ‘My dear friends do not be bewildered by the fiery ordeal that is upon you, as though it were something extraordinary’ 1Ptr 4: 12-13.

He goes onto say: 'If you suffer, it must not be for infringing the rights of others 1Ptr 4: 15-16.

Then our first Pontiff finishes by bidding us ‘Peace to you all’ 5:14

It seems to me that there are people who want respect while not according it to others. Do you think that Muslims respect Christianity when they call it the religion of stupidity? I have seen it called that on an Islamic forum.

Respect has to be earned! Absurd teachings do not deserve respect either!

Vickie

 

[Sixtus]

I can forgive someone and still disrespect them -

That is for you my friend

I cannot, to me, love and respect for their human dignity are two sides of the same coin

God bless

 

[jack_hawkins]

Now Sixtus, all I have seen here from your muslim sisters and brothers in this forum is an immense and extraordinary capacity to feel offended whenever anyone dares to counter (with examples and details taken from their own muslim literature, no less!!) their propaganda and fruitless attempts at convincing us that their so-called prophet and message were from god …… the following is a very condensed version of the dynamics of these exchanges:

muslim: muhhamad and Koran are from allah, who is the same god of the bible, so you should also accept him as your true prophet ……

Christian responds: I can’t believe you, and that is in no small part because your alleged prophet did some very objectionable things (slept with a 9 year-old girl, ordered the murder of his enemies for minimal reasons, had people tortured to make them confess, raided caravans of unarmed people, etc, etc) that some entity called “allah” (clearly NOT the biblical god) condoned and even encouraged ……

muslim replies: you are offending my prophet!!! … you are offending me !!! … you are offending my religion!!! ……

so, Sixtus, is that the type of “disrespect” and insults” that you are encouraging your muslims bros and sis to report to the admins?

Exactly! This is why I have tried to clarify the application of the forum rules considering the fact that to some people simply stating the historical facts about the man who called himself “Muhammad” is offensive. we must remember many Muslim states will ban any book etc in any way criticising Muhammad, they are not used to exposing the life of their prophet to “Muhammad”. Also having presented their arguments to fellow Muslims they are possibly not used to a higher level of analysis and argument.

 

[eliasaph99]

Amidst the insults and offence I reiterate what I have said above:

It is our solemn duty commanded by Christ that we ‘love one another’ Jn15:17. Respect for those of other faiths and no faith is also a forum rule.

I would suggest that if a Moslem feel they have been insulted, it is your right to complain to the forum moderators.

I for my part as a Catholic offer my solidarity and respect to my Moslem brothers and sisters.

I also fully endorse and offer my weight to the comment by Kevin 42

solidarity - A union of interests, purposes, or sympathies among members of a group;

How can a Catholic have solidarity with Muslims?

Their interests, purposes, and sympathies are diametrically opposed to our own.

 

[eliasaph99]

I cannot imagine the horror and sum of all the suffering endured accross the world but most by my American brothers and sisters in the horror and evils visited on this great nation in 9/11.

But, in respect of the Saviour’s command as difficult as it is [and no doubt prayers through gritted teeth may be necessary, but pray we must] for the Lord said: 'This is my commandement to love one another Jn 15: 17.

Love means to respect, to wish well, to render assistance to a fellow in need, to pray for and above all to forgive.

That does not mean that we are not allowed to say how hurt we are. That is natural justice to be able to express our feelings but not in a derogatory or attacking way which lacks respect for human dignity

The text goes on: ‘as the world hated me so it will hate you, the servant is not greater than the Master’ Jn 15:20.

Further down it says: ‘they will kill you in the name of religious duty’ Jn 16:3.

We know these things will happen but the Lord does not say that we must love everyone except for psychotic mass murderers who are motivated by hatred. The Lord does not say that. No, He simply commands us to love.

I know my friend that is very difficult and sometimes it appears impossible but with and through the Power of the Advocate [Jn 15:26] all is possible not only for their sake but for our healing too!

Although I agree that Christ wants us to show love to our enemies, you are giving an interpretation to John 15:17 that simply does not exist.

The command in the referenced verse is for Christians to love one another. You are using it horribly out of context.

A more relevant verse would be Matthew 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.”

However, I think that you are taking even this concept to an extreme. Christ did not command us to lie down in front of the sword of the enemy and to smile and accept every insult and disrespect hurled our way.

The command was to show love, which we as a people do when we send aid and disaster relief to muslim countries and when we as a Church feed their hungry and clothe their children.

But Christ also fought and drove the moneychangers from the temple. He fought for the sacred. He commanded us in the Gospel to “Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.” Matthew 7:6

He also commanded us to help the poor and the meek. So what of the persecuted Christian in their lands? Shouldn’t we defend them? I think this is as much the command of Christ as the command to love our enemies.

To everything there is a time and a place. “A time to keep silence, and a time to speak. A time of love, and a time of hatred. A time of war, and a time of peace.” Ecclesiastes 3:7-8

 

[cestusdei]

I love muslims enough to tell them the truth about what is going on and not to accept their pathetic excuses for murder Christians. Love and truth go together. Love does not mean allowing someone to continue to commit evil acts. Where is the love for the Christians being persecuted? They feel alone and lost. They wonder why we don’t pay attention to their plight. Who suffers more, a muslim who sees a cartoon he doesn’t like or a Christian who is killed very slowly and painfully? Let’s have a bit of perspective here.

 

[Sixtus]

They have earned your respect because they are created by God. Jesus respected the even the worst of sinners. The only people he had harsh words towards most of the time were the people that supposedly knew the truth-the Jews. Even then, he showed a certain respect towards them. As I said earlier, false religion deserves no respect, but every person deserves respect and dignity because they were created by the One True God. Kevin 42

AMEN

What is there to respect about Islam? We can’t trust anything that flies out of a Muslim’s mouth

I am not suggesting an apologetics for Islam but asking for moderation and respect for the dignity of those who post here whether we agree with their religion or not.

That is also a forum rule: *Guidelines for posting on religious discussions

Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion,

It is fallacious reasoning to use embarrassing incidents to claim that they “prove” a particular religion is false.*

Forum Rules

We also are commanded by our Master to love Jn 15:17,

We are commanded to forgive Mk 11:25, Mt 7:1-2

We have a duty to respect and love both those who love us and those who persecute us. Matthew 5:44 love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

We are also assured that despite elements who would destroy us [and that is not only the fringe elements within Islam but also the secular world], we will not be overcome. Our Master promises to be with us always even to the end of time. Mt 28:20

Although I agree that Christ wants us to show love to our enemies, you are giving an interpretation to John 15:17 that simply does not exist.

The command in the referenced verse is for Christians to love one another. You are using it horribly out of context.

A more relevant verse would be Matthew 5:44 love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

AMEN

However, I think that you are taking even this concept to an extreme. Christ did not command us to lie down in front of the sword of the enemy and to smile

Now that is an amazing thing: I endorce the forum rules by reminding my dear brothers and sisters in Christ that it is uncharitable to attack and be fecetious of Moslems who post here and you tell me in reply that 'loving my neighbour is to lie down in front of their sword and smile! Now that is an amazing thing

Our first Pontiff bids us: ‘If you suffer, it must not be for infringing the rights of others’ 1Ptr 4:15-16

Love does not mean allowing someone to continue to commit evil acts

I am not suggesting it does. I am merely adding my weight to forum rules: that we should do not attack individual Moslems [or anyone elses] faith or religion

May the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ bless you all

 

[cestusdei]

Pope Benedict spoke rather toughly to muslims recently. I think we have ample reason to stop being so “nice” and to start asking muslims some hard questions. It is not unloving to protest the persecution and murder of Christians in muslim lands or to demand that Christians receive equal rights under the law. I am not inclined to become a dhimmi or their slave. Sixtus, if you desire martyrdom your muslim friends will give you plenty of chances.

 

[Sixtus]

Pope Benedict spoke rather toughly to muslims recently. I think we have ample reason to stop being so “nice” and to start asking muslims some hard questions. It is not unloving to protest the persecution and murder of Christians in muslim lands or to demand that Christians receive equal rights under the law…

First, I must apologise for the use of the small case ‘m’ which I have quoted above. That is because it is quoted verbatim. It is obvious that the name of a religion is a proper noun which in English requires a large case prefix.

It is done in small case to deny them their identity. It is a very subtle and sublime form of bullying which is forbidden in forum rules.

I cite that as the way that some on this forum insult Muslims. It irritates me that some non-Catholics use the large case ‘P’ in Protestant and the small case ‘c’ for Catholic in the same sentence. It is done that way to be offensive. Above it is done likewise for the SAME reasons and that is the very attitude which underpins my criticisms of the way that Muslims are treated by some.

That is done purely to provoke a reaction so that it can then be said ‘look how they react to criticism’. It is goading Muslims to a fight. That is un-Christian. I denounce such conduct and distance myself from it.

There is no record of either Pope Benedict or his late holiness John Paul 2, ever spoke to any one individual Muslim in a fetious condescending and offensive way.

Sixtus, if you desire martyrdom your muslim friends will give you plenty of chances

If following the teachings of Christ and our first Pontiff, is ‘desring martyrdom’ so be it.

But I do not consider ‘treating others as I would like to be treated’, speaking to others in respect for their individual human dignity’ and doing all that can be done by dialogue, is desiring martyrdom.

I would argue that to prevaricate ‘intentionaly provoke’ to show disrespect for both the individual, their religion and forum rules, is far more likely to be counter productive than the one advocated by Christ, the by forum mods and those of us with a brotherly [and sisterly] love of neighbour.

I do not apologise for being orthodox Catholic. I shall pray that you may be too!

 

[heathernoel]

I did not break forum rules by saying that you can’t trust what comes from a Muslim’s mouth. It is in their Koran that they must lie… Perhaps it is the Koran with which you have an issue.

I do not break rules knowingly.

Thank you for the opportunity to correct the situation.

 

[Sixtus]

Heathernoel said:

I did not break forum rules by saying that you can’t trust what comes from a Muslim’s mouth. It is in their Koran that they must lie… Perhaps it is the Koran with which you have an issue.

Ok, let’s say you are right.

Quote the references for the allegation that the Koran requires a Muslim to lie.

If the proof is forthcoming, I will apologise. If it is not, I will cite this instance as the final and abolute proof

 

[Kevin42]

Christ did not command us to lie down in front of the sword of the enemy and to smile and accept every insult and disrespect hurled our way.

Is that not what He himself did in the garden when they came to get Him, and when they slapped him and spat on Him?

 

[cor]

Heathernoel said:

Ok, let’s say you are right.

Quote the references for the allegation that the Koran requires a Muslim to lie.

If the proof is forthcoming, I will apologise. If it is not, I will cite this instance as the final and abolute proof

I don’t think the Koran requires a Muslim to lie. But read this:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/11/what_is_your_re.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

which latter references and quotes Qur’an verses 3:28 and 16:106

 

[eliasaph99]

Is that not what He himself did in the garden when they came to get Him, and when they slapped him and spat on Him?

Yes that is what He did. Because that was the time to act that way and to accept what the Father wanted.

But there were other times where He debated ferociously with the Pharisees. There was the notable time when He drove the money changers from the Temple with violent force.

You cannot look at one action in Christ’s life and claim that it is the way to act at all times and in all situations. To do so is to deny reason and the rest of Scripture.

 

[eliasaph99]

Heathernoel said:

Ok, let’s say you are right.

Quote the references for the allegation that the Koran requires a Muslim to lie.

If the proof is forthcoming, I will apologise. If it is not, I will cite this instance as the final and abolute proof

I think HeatherNoel may have spoken too strongly when she said that the Koran requires a Muslim to lie. But they are certainly permitted to lie in order to advance Islam. By different Muslim groups, this has been interpreted in various ways and to varying degrees of looseness. The basic principle is called taqiyya.

They are also permitted to lie if to do so would be the lesser of two evils.

There are also stories in the Hadith which show quite plainly that Mohammed gives permission to lie. I know that there have been discussions in this forum about this topic, so you could search for them here and find what you need.

In regards to your e-mail about cestusdei, I am amazed at your interpretation of his lowercase ‘m’. Wow.

You’re willing to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt and to claim that we must bend over backwards to show them love, but you’re not willing to do the same thing for your brother. Instead, right out of the gate, you accuse him of bullying and intentional disrespect. What about the command to love one another? That was a command to Christians about how they are to treat other Christians. Where is your love? Where is your charity towards your brother?