Disrespect toward Islam on this Forum

[heathernoel]

YOu are correct. On that, I misspoke, and I humbly apologize.

 

[Kevin42]

But there were other times where He debated ferociously with the Pharisees. There was the notable time when He drove the money changers from the Temple with violent force.

Yes, he debated with the Pharisees, but considering He is God, he still treated them with great respect, just as He showed respect towards Pontius Pilot, and towards the people who were about to stone the lady that had commited adultery (and he respected the woman herself). He was God, and no one deserved His respect, or compassion, or love, or the dignity He showed towards them, yet He did it anyways because Jesus is perfect in love.

From my knowledge of the Gospel, which I will admit is probably not as complete as it could be, I see Jesus as being incredibly submissive and peaceful towards every person He came into contact with. The world is made up of sinners…people infinitely separated from God by their sins. Yet, He loved us, who are infinitely unworthy of His love so much that He became man, allowed Himself to be fathered by a sinner, allowed Himself to be persecuted by sinners, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, allowed Himself to be spat upon, submitted to the authority of Pontius Pilot, submitted to the point of being crucified on a cross, all so that Jesus, in His infinite glory, could be the perfect sacrifice that allows us to be loved and cherished in the sight of God. I believe that we are called to imitate this attitude, even towards those who have been separated from us by false religion.

Again, I’m certainly not trying to say that we should “just accept” Islam, or that we should not try to help those who follow a false religion. I am not saying that we should be ok with terrorism, or just ignore it. I just believe that in addressing all of these things, there is a way to do so that maintains the Truth and is firm, but is still respectful of the individual person and is loving towards them. That’s just my thoughts though. Peace .

 

[cestusdei]

First, I must apologise for the use of the small case ‘m’ which I have quoted above. That is because it is quoted verbatim. It is obvious that the name of a religion is a proper noun which in English requires a large case prefix.

It is done in small case to deny them their identity. It is a very subtle and sublime form of bullying which is forbidden in forum rules.

I cite that as the way that some on this forum insult Muslims. It irritates me that some non-Catholics use the large case ‘P’ in Protestant and the small case ‘c’ for Catholic in the same sentence. It is done that way to be offensive. Above it is done likewise for the SAME reasons and that is the very attitude which underpins my criticisms of the way that Muslims are treated by some.

That is done purely to provoke a reaction so that it can then be said ‘look how they react to criticism’. It is goading Muslims to a fight. That is un-Christian. I denounce such conduct and distance myself from it.

There is no record of either Pope Benedict or his late holiness John Paul 2, ever spoke to any one individual Muslim in a fetious condescending and offensive way.

If following the teachings of Christ and our first Pontiff, is ‘desring martyrdom’ so be it.

But I do not consider ‘treating others as I would like to be treated’, speaking to others in respect for their individual human dignity’ and doing all that can be done by dialogue, is desiring martyrdom.

I would argue that to prevaricate ‘intentionaly provoke’ to show disrespect for both the individual, their religion and forum rules, is far more likely to be counter productive than the one advocated by Christ, the by forum mods and those of us with a brotherly [and sisterly] love of neighbour.

I do not apologise for being orthodox Catholic. I shall pray that you may be too!

So Sixtus can read my mind. Wow, impressive. He also is now the interpreter of the rules eh? It is nice that you care so deeply for Osama et al. I do wish you expressed even a tiny amount of concern for Catholics being butchered by muslims. But I see that I wait in vain. I do remember this behavior during the cold war. I actually saw a group of clergy applaud the Soviets on their enlightened religious policies. I have often wished I could confront those clergy now. Sixtus, the blood of the martyrs cries out and you only hear the cries of joy of the murderers. How about some compassion for the victims?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Do Christians believe Islam is the path to salvation?

If Yes, then you should become Muslims.

If No, then you should not prevent Muslims from seeking personal salvation by sticking to an ‘un-salvation’ belief system.

If you see a person drowning you can either let him drown or help him. What are you going to do? Do you let him drown in the ‘unsalvation’ path of Islam or do you help him to what you believe is the path to salvation?

The talk about ‘love and respect’ for Islam is nonsense because it means that you are leaving the Muslims to follow the path of Islam which is ‘un-salvation’.

If you are true to the tenets of your beliefs you should be helping Muslims to seek personal salvation, not wallow in the pits of ‘un-salvation’.

So what is your position? Is Islam the path to personal salvation or is it not?

If it is not the path of personal salvation surely your conscience as a Christian should tell you to led them back to the right path. Do you wash your hands like Pontius Pilate or do you do what is right and true?

Will you lead Muslims to the path of personal salvation or will you let them remain in thrall to the Devil?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What is the right way to engage Muslims?

Knowing Muhammad, their founder, killed people and enslaved people and butchered innocents and robbed and committed polygamy and rape and lied and committed pedophilia, do we step aside and say, ‘okay, Muhammad, Sir, your teachings are from the One True God and your God is Our God’?

Do we ‘respect’ Islam so much that we are willing to let Muslims be in thrall to a ‘God’ that promotes killing and rape and robbery and polygamy and slavery and paedophila?

Do you even understand just how evil enslaving someone is? How would you feel like being the one enslaved? Have we lost our sense of justice and empathy? Have we lost touch with the real victims here?

How can we stand back and applaud Muslims for BELIEVING IN THE SAME GOD AS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM? When this supposed god sanctioned killing and robbery and genocide and ethnic-cleansing and slavery and polygamy and pedophilia?

Is there no depths of human immorality that we do not RESPECT?

Wake up, people. There are things worth respecting and things unworthy of respect. The line is clear. Which side are you on?

 

[Montalban]

Peace,

Visiting I find much disrespect toward Islam among the member of this forum.

I desire to address what appears to be an uncharacteristic relationship between Christians and Muslims, insha’allah.

Peace.

Can you respect evil?

 

[Montalban]

Quote the references for the allegation that the Koran requires a Muslim to lie.

If the proof is forthcoming, I will apologise. If it is not, I will cite this instance as the final and abolute proof

Although you have limited the scope to the Koran, here’s something from Hadith…

Here’s an example from the Hadith of Muhammad allowing a lie… where Muhammad allowed a man to use a falsity in order to kill someone…

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

 

[shadow_fire]

Peace,

Visiting I find much disrespect toward Islam among the member of this forum.

I desire to address what appears to be an uncharacteristic relationship between Christians and Muslims, insha’allah.

Peace.

Th

Peace,

Visiting I find much disrespect toward Islam among the member of this forum.

I desire to address what appears to be an uncharacteristic relationship between Christians and Muslims, insha’allah.

Peace.

Many of these people disrespect because they think they are correct when in reality all religions are just as credible as the next but they think much of there actions are justed because of there religion. This however applies to many many religions and not just Catholicism.

 

[Montalban]

Many of these people disrespect because they think they are correct when in reality all religions are just as credible as the next but they think much of there actions are justed because of there religion. This however applies to many many religions and not just Catholicism.

all religions are just as credible as the next
ROFL

So a religion that preaches peace, and one that preaches war are just as credible?

 

[shadow_fire]

all religions are just as credible as the next
ROFL

So a religion that preaches peace, and one that preaches war are just as credible?

And Catholicism doesn’t preach violence? homosexuals have died from church ministers preaching against them and insighting violence into youth.
And how do the preachings change the credibility? a religion may preach violence but that doesn’t result in a decline in there credibility it results in a loss of moral.

Most religions only credibility is there preaching of what they feel God wishes, some may write it down into a gospel but that does nothing for credibility because I could write down my beliefs right now into a book but that would not make the beliefs true.

The bottom line is religions cred comes from a “you can’t prove us wrong” factor.

 

[jack_hawkins]

all religions are just as credible as the next
ROFL

So a religion that preaches peace, and one that preaches war are just as credible?

yes, the comment that people think their actions are justified by their faith would appear far more pertinent to Islam where unfortunately violence is acceptable as exemplified by jihad - we see the results on the front pages of the newspapers in the UK

 

[Urf]

Stating the truth is not disrespect.

 

[Montalban]

And Catholicism doesn’t preach violence? homosexuals have died from church ministers preaching against them and insighting violence into youth.

Although I’m not a Catholic, show me the Catholic teaching that preaches violence towards gays

And how do the preachings change the credibility? a religion may preach violence but that doesn’t result in a decline in there credibility it results in a loss of moral.

It’s less credible that a religion teach violence because its nature is destructive. Islam teaches conquest. There’s nothing credible about a negative god… for you’ve got a god that ‘created’ only to have people destroy

The bottom line is religions cred comes from a “you can’t prove us wrong” factor.

There can be proof based on contradictions within the religion.

If for instance I said I believed in a green god named U34-Bxr and had pictures of a yellow god and yet claimed this was my green god, then you’d start to question my beliefs.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

This is the current state of affairs in the Middle East.

Muslim alleges: Palestine is ours! All the Middle East should be Muslim (and then the whole world).

Christian alleges: But I and my Jewish neighbors were there before you, so therefore your claim can’t be 100% correct, but we’re willing to consider, you can have Palestine if we can have Israel.

Muslim alleges: We will take this back by force if we have to and will drive Israel into the sea! Then we will go after any country that supported this “roadmap to peace”.

Christian alleges: Let’s try to make a roadmap to peace so the Jewish, Christian and Muslim neighbors/cousins can live together in harmony.

Muslim questions this: Under an Islamic form of government?



What’s to respect about that?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

And Catholicism doesn’t preach violence? homosexuals have died from church ministers preaching against them and insighting violence into youth…

I think you’re confusing Catholicism with Islam, or Protestantism. Many homosexuals die in Islamic countries and at the hand of Protestants.

 

[Montalban]

I think you’re confusing Catholicism with Islam, or Protestantism. Many homosexuals die in Islamic countries and at the hand of Protestants.

I hope we see him forward evidence about Catholic teaching to back up his claims

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I hope we see him forward evidence about Catholic teaching to back up his claims

Hey bro, he can’t. It’s a red herring. Many liberals use the same red herring.

 

[SPH1]

Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence

• 1 Peter 3:15-1* NAB

…

and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fearand be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. KJV

Peter’s words should be the guiding principle.

Note that one is ALWAYS to defend the faith, and defending the faith is never disrespect in itself.

“Respect” does not mean acceptance.*

 

[Montalban]

“Respect” does not mean acceptance.

Indeed, but with Islam, people think that pointing out the evils Muhammed did is to be disrespectful. It’s to be factual. I note that often the same people are confused between the two - hence they don’t themselves offer up facts when pressed.

 

[birdsong]

If martyrdom is so good and desirable, why don’t you take the first plane to Saudi Arabia to preach Christianity in an open place and make a martyr of yourself (don’t bother buying a return ticket, your “muslim brothers and sisters” there will make sure it is a one-way trip ) ….

Apparently, martyrdom is all good and fine, as long as you are not the one who is martyred, right? ….

since I can not say what I really think about people like you Sixtus, I just will say that your mentality and (lack of) logic really baffles me ……

If following the teachings of Christ and our first Pontiff, is ‘desring martyrdom’ so be it.

But I do not consider ‘treating others as I would like to be treated’, speaking to others in respect for their individual human dignity’ and doing all that can be done by dialogue, is desiring martyrdom.

I would argue that to prevaricate ‘intentionaly provoke’ to show disrespect for both the individual, their religion and forum rules, is far more likely to be counter productive than the one advocated by Christ, the by forum mods and those of us with a brotherly [and sisterly] love of neighbour.

I do not apologise for being orthodox Catholic. I shall pray that you may be too!