Disrespect

[Sister_Helena]

OH, OK. That now makes sense to me, why we have such a difference in our understanding of the role of the superior.

I noticed that Sister Helena is also O’Carm and she said that the superior sets the tone for the local community. I was wondering what does the house chapter do. If you don’t have a house chapter with juridical authority, then the superior is truly the top gun in the community.

In his rule St. Francis forbade Priors. We were never to have priors or abbots. We were to have mothers called Guardians. It is their job to make sure that Francis, the rule, constitutions and the Church are obeyed. Every month the Guardian must convoke a house chapter, which makes law for that house. It cannot overrule Francis, the rule or the constitution. It simply makes laws on areas not addressed in one of the existing documents. The Guardian is morally obliged to obey the voice of the brothers in chapter. He cannot overrule the community. The only ones who can overrule the community are the successors of St. Francis: Provincial Minister and Minister General, or their vicars. Because they have the right of succession. A local superior does not have the right of succession, because he is not elected by the brothers. He is appointed by the major superior.

We don’t really look to him to set the tone. We expect him to be responsible for making sure that everything runs smoothly so that the friars can live according to the rule. He may command anything that is in the rule, constitution or that the chapter allows him to command. That being said, some Guardians are more charismatic than others. These guys rarely have to command. The friars are eager to please them.

However, the friars also have a duty. They are never to call into question a mandate given by a Guardian or a Minister, unless it’s a sin. If it’s not in the books, you must still obey and bring it up at a chapter. There is some margin for those in authority to make decisions that can’t wait for a chapter.

As you can see, the chapter sets the tone. It’s an ancient monastic concept. That’s why there is a great deal of diversity between one house and another, because certan things are particular to that house alone.

Our nuns are governed by an abbess. Our sisters are governed by a chapter. Our seculars are governed by their own ministers general and minister provincial who may never be a friar.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

We do not hold local chapters as you described in your Congregation. We (the entire Congregation as a whole) convene a General Chapter every six years. The General Chapter elects a Superior General and Council Members. A Superior General can hold two successive terms of 6 years each term. The Superior General then appoints a local Superior for every convent we have. These convents correspond to the number of facilities the Congregation operates (18 in this case). Each Local Superior upholds whatever the Constitutions mandate. Every month we have Community Meetings to discuss Community affairs (as stated in the Rule of Carmel) ranging from the spiritual to basic convent keeping. We do not vote on new laws. A Local Superior has the explicit authority to excuse one from some Community Acts, or decide on matters of finances, health, permissions, etc. My Community (I’m sure Brother David’s too) engages in dialogues and consultations with regards important matters at a local level. If it’s not resolved at this level, it is brought to the attention of the Superior General. It is very seldom that that happens. Most of the time, the Vow of Obedience with regards the Local Superior is as operative as Obedience to the Mother General. In the Rule of Carmel, the idea of a Prioress (or Prior) means “first of many.” She is appointed to be first in authority but in the service to Community. It is to her that is entrusted the smooth operation and regular observance of Community life. I know that Teresian Carmels are autonomous of each other. Our 18 convents are autonomous only in minor local affairs, not anything pertaining to the articles of the Constitutions.

Brother David, it seems to me that we have hijacked this thread! I apologize.

 

[JReducation]

We do not hold local chapters as you described in your Congregation. We (the entire Congregation as a whole) convene a General Chapter every six years. The General Chapter elects a Superior General and Council Members. A Superior General can hold two successive terms of 6 years each term. The Superior General then appoints a local Superior for every convent we have. These convents correspond to the number of facilities the Congregation operates (18 in this case). Each Local Superior upholds whatever the Constitutions mandate. Every month we have Community Meetings to discuss Community affairs (as stated in the Rule of Carmel) ranging from the spiritual to basic convent keeping. We do not vote on new laws. A Local Superior has the explicit authority to excuse one from some Community Acts, or decide on matters of finances, health, permissions, etc. My Community (I’m sure Brother David’s too) engages in dialogues and consultations with regards important matters at a local level. If it’s not resolved at this level, it is brought to the attention of the Superior General. It is very seldom that that happens. Most of the time, the Vow of Obedience with regards the Local Superior is as operative as Obedience to the Mother General. In the Rule of Carmel, the idea of a Prioress (or Prior) means “first of many.” She is appointed to be first in authority but in the service to Community. It is to her that is entrusted the smooth operation and regular observance of Community life. I know that Teresian Carmels are autonomous of each other. Our 18 convents are autonomous only in minor local affairs, not anything pertaining to the articles of the Constitutions.

Brother David, it seems to me that we have hijacked this thread! I apologize.

Actually, I have enjoyed your (name removed by moderator)ut and I don’t consider the thread hijacked. Here’s my logic. We were talking about respect shown for religious on these threads or elsewhere. I believe that if readers who are not religiuos read about our systems, they will understand the diversity in religious life and it may save them from passing judgment and issuing condemnation before asking.

I know that I had no idea that the O’Carms did not have canonical house chapters. I just took it for granted that since they are contemporaries with the monastic movement that they had common elements. To be honest, I’m more familiar with the Teresian Carmels. They are closer to Franciscans and Benedictines in government than you guys are.

But this is good for people to know. We are all religious, but we are not cut out of the same mold. There are things that overlap and other points that are very unique to a specific order or congregation. For example, Franciscan men are all Orders. Franciscan women can be either religious orders or religious congregations. There are differences there too.

The point of the thread is to discuss disrespect. I think that much disrespect happens when expectations are not realistic. But we religious have also contributed to this. Because we speak very little about our infrastructures. The image that people have of religious is on what they see externally: habits, ministry, prayer and not much more outside of the image that Hollywood has created or the media.

We need to expose more of our internal systems and explain how they work and why they work for each of our religious families. Then, if someone wants to be rude or mean, they’ll know that they are being unfair. Others who did not realize that they were being unfair will beter understand and they will relate better with religious and have more realisitic expectations of each religious family. One way of reducing disrespect is through education.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sister_Helena]

I forgot to mention that a local Prioress holds office only for 3 years and can be re-appointed for another 3 years in succession. After that the Superior General appoints (not elect) another. Thanks Brother. I hate to be a hijacker!

 

[wina]

Dear Bro David, Bro JR and Sister Helena,

All explanations are very good and I try to understand it. But there’s something bothers my mind regarding the local superior who doesn’t follow the rule (for Carmel)?

And sister Helena, what do you mean about “A Local Superior has the explicit authority to excuse one from some Community Acts, or decide on matters of finances, health, permissions, etc”? Can he/she have authority to do whatever it takes for the reason of finances, health, permission etc? how about for this act, he/she disobey the basic rule? For how far or long that this matter will be brought to Superior General?

Thanks before

 

[wina]

And one more question, how we can bring this act to the superior general? I mean the procedure?

 

[JReducation]

I forgot to mention that a local Prioress holds office only for 3 years and can be re-appointed for another 3 years in succession. After that the Superior General appoints (not elect) another. Thanks Brother. I hate to be a hijacker!

Our local Guardians are also appointed for three years at a time. Because Franciscans are now up to 1.7 million men and women, we’re are divided into six obediences, that is six Ministers General (General Superiors) with their respective councils. This six Ministers do meet several times a year. They’re all based in Rome. But they each run their branch of the order for six years at a time and can be re-elected for another six.

They are elected by the Ministers Provincial. We have 115 provinces of friars alone. I don’t now how many of sisters. The nuns don’t have provinces. The Secular Franciscans also have 114 provinces. Each province is governed by a Minister Provincial and his council. The Minister Provincial is elected by the Guardians and one friar from each house.

That’s why we say that the Ministers have succession, but the Guardians do not. They are not elected. The Provincial Ministers appoint the Guardians. We don’t elect them. You can be a Guardian up to six years. Ministers Provincial up to six years and Minister General up to 12 years. Two consecutive terms for each.

The idea of not having a prior was Francis’ idea that all of the brothers owed obedience to each other. That’s why he set up the system with house chapters, provincial chapters, and general chapters. These chapters decide policies and procedures that are not in the rule and the superior has to obey the vote of the community, making him obedient to his brothers and the brothers obedient to him and when he enforces the decisions.

That’s why our rule says that we are bound under vow to obey each other. Other communities do not have this mandate, obedience is only for the superior and the statutes, not for each other.

The Benedictines follow the same pattern of government. Actually, Francis borrowed it from them with one modification. He got rid of the Abbot.

I hope we get other religious to share about their communities. This is good for people to know how we operate and dispel misunderstandings.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Wina,

I’ll let Sister Helena or Br. David answer the question from the Carmelite perspective. But I will share this with you. Canon law allows the local superior to dispense with certain obligations for just reasons. He or she is also the financial administrator of the house. Therefore, he or she can make contracts, distribute monies, spend, beg, etc. Canon law does not allow local superiors to buy and sell property such as buildings and land. Canon law also allows local superiors to dispense with certain parts of the rule for just reasons. But this must always be an exception. For example, a local superior can allow a member of the community to miss morninng prayer every day because he has to go on duty at the hospital. But he still has to pray it alone.

We went to a retreat and had a seven hour drive home. We got home at midnight. I told the brothers that they did not have to be in chapel for morning prayer at 5:30. They could sleep in and pray independently when they got up. Canon law allows you to do these kind of things. I couldn’t just cancel community prayer indefinitely. That’s not allowed.

However, even if canon law allows something, if the rule or the constitution prohibits it, then you follow the rule and constitution. In this case I have no idea what the Carmelite constitutions say on such matters.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sister_Helena]

Dear Bro David, Bro JR and Sister Helena,

All explanations are very good and I try to understand it. But there’s something bothers my mind regarding the local superior who doesn’t follow the rule (for Carmel)?

And sister Helena, what do you mean about “A Local Superior has the explicit authority to excuse one from some Community Acts, or decide on matters of finances, health, permissions, etc”? Can he/she have authority to do whatever it takes for the reason of finances, health, permission etc? how about for this act, he/she disobey the basic rule? For how far or long that this matter will be brought to Superior General?

Thanks before

A local Superior cannot order any Sister anything against the Rule and Constitutions, and a Sister is not bound by Obedience to follow a command violating the Rule and Constitutions. If a Sister is not feeling well but she may have some scruples about not going to Community Prayers (which is a community act), the Superior can tell her not to come to prayers but instead say them in private. Or if the local community needs a new microwave or furniture or celebrate birthdays which may involve spending money, the local Superior will have to approve all that. Or if a senior Sister needs to be admitted to a nursing home for long term care, the Sister concerned and the Superior will have to sit and discuss options. If a Sister needs to be away from the convent for an overnight outside the day designated for a day-off permission is obtained from the local Superior. Local Superior is bound to the articles of the Constitutions. If an action is required that is an exception, the local Superior will inform the Superior General who will decide or make exceptions. A Sister can contact the Mother General herself, without a local Superior’s permission, if she has concerns. A periodic local Visitation by the Mother General and her Council Members are conducted. During this time each Sister spends time with the Visitatrix (the Sister visiting) in private to discuss regular observance and whatever issues /concerns come up. In all things though, the spirit of dialogue and fraternal charity are utilized first before drastically bringing every matter of concern to the attention of the Mother General or Council.

 

[wina]

Wina,

I’ll let Sister Helena or Br. David answer the question from the Carmelite perspective. But I will share this with you. Canon law allows the local superior to dispense with certain obligations for just reasons. He or she is also the financial administrator of the house. Therefore, he or she can make contracts, distribute monies, spend, beg, etc. Canon law does not allow local superiors to buy and sell property such as buildings and land. Canon law also allows local superiors to dispense with certain parts of the rule for just reasons. But this must always be an exception. For example, a local superior can allow a member of the community to miss morninng prayer every day because he has to go on duty at the hospital. But he still has to pray it alone.

We went to a retreat and had a seven hour drive home. We got home at midnight. I told the brothers that they did not have to be in chapel for morning prayer at 5:30. They could sleep in and pray independently when they got up. Canon law allows you to do these kind of things. I couldn’t just cancel community prayer indefinitely. That’s not allowed.

However, even if canon law allows something, if the rule or the constitution prohibits it, then you follow the rule and constitution. In this case I have no idea what the Carmelite constitutions say on such matters.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks Bro.JR, I agreed what you said that you have a good reason for not getting up early morning because of retreat task. I will not comment/argue with it because you still ask your brother to pray.

And for answer for Carmel I will wait for Br David or Sr. Helena to answer that.

Oh yes, regarding Franciscan what is the different between OFM and SFO? Can I ask you something about OFM? Oops or I need to open a new thread about it.

Sorry Bro David. The conversation is getting interesting. I would like to learn more about different kind of orders.

 

[wina]

A local Superior cannot order any Sister anything against the Rule and Constitutions, and a Sister is not bound by Obedience to follow a command violating the Rule and Constitutions. If a Sister is not feeling well but she may have some scruples about not going to Community Prayers (which is a community act), the Superior can tell her not to come to prayers but instead say them in private. Or if the local community needs a new microwave or furniture or celebrate birthdays which may involve spending money, the local Superior will have to approve all that. Or if a senior Sister needs to be admitted to a nursing home for long term care, the Sister concerned and the Superior will have to sit and discuss options. If a Sister needs to be away from the convent for an overnight outside the day designated for a day-off permission is obtained from the local Superior. Local Superior is bound to the articles of the Constitutions. If an action is required that is an exception, the local Superior will inform the Superior General who will decide or make exceptions. A Sister can contact the Mother General herself, without a local Superior’s permission, if she has concerns. A periodic local Visitation by the Mother General and her Council Members are conducted. During this time each Sister spends time with the Visitatrix (the Sister visiting) in private to discuss regular observance and whatever issues /concerns come up. In all things though, the spirit of dialogue and fraternal charity are utilized first before drastically bringing every matter of concern to the attention of the Mother General or Council.

Thanks sister, will be it the same for brothers?

 

[JReducation]

Thanks Bro.JR, I agreed what you said that you have a good reason for not getting up early morning because of retreat task. I will not comment/argue with it because you still ask your brother to pray.

And for answer for Carmel I will wait for Br David or Sr. Helena to answer that.

Oh yes, regarding Franciscan what is the different between OFM and SFO? Can I ask you something about OFM? Oops or I need to open a new thread about it.

Sorry Bro David. The conversation is getting interesting. I would like to learn more about different kind of orders.

The answer is simple. St. Francis wrote three rules.

First rule:; for the Order of Friars Minor (OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv)

Second rule: for the Order of Poor Sisters (known as Poor Clares today)

Third rule: for the Order of Brothers and Sisters of Penance (this group subdivided: seculars and religious. The original religious were called TOR (Third Order Regular). Another group of religious was founded by two Capuchins and three Secular Franciscans. These came to be called Order of St. Francis (OSF).

The three rules are pretty similar, except when it comes to community living. Then they differ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wina]

The answer is simple. St. Francis wrote three rules.

First rule:; for the Order of Friars Minor (OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv)

Second rule: for the Order of Poor Sisters (known as Poor Clares today)

Third rule: for the Order of Brothers and Sisters of Penance (this group subdivided: seculars and religious. The original religious were called TOR (Third Order Regular). Another group of religious was founded by two Capuchins and three Secular Franciscans. These came to be called Order of St. Francis (OSF).

The three rules are pretty similar, except when it comes to community living. Then they differ.

Fraternally,

Thanks Bro JR. There are many things I’ve learned from your explanations

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear Bro David, Bro JR and Sister Helena,

All explanations are very good and I try to understand it. But there’s something bothers my mind regarding the local superior who doesn’t follow the rule (for Carmel)?

And sister Helena, what do you mean about “A Local Superior has the explicit authority to excuse one from some Community Acts, or decide on matters of finances, health, permissions, etc”? Can he/she have authority to do whatever it takes for the reason of finances, health, permission etc? how about for this act, he/she disobey the basic rule? For how far or long that this matter will be brought to Superior General?

Thanks before

The local superior would be the prior provincial, who is delegated by the prior general, to appoint the prioresses in the convents. The prior provincial also appoints the priors in his province though he may allow a large house to vote he is not bound by that vote.

The constitutions of the order detail what a prior provincial can do and what he can excuse from, we also have our own particular constitutions for the province that spell out somethings that are only vaguely laid out in the constitutions of the order or spell out special items for our province.

And one more question, how we can bring this act to the superior general? I mean the procedure?

As for issues with ministries within the province, the first person to contact is the prior of the house involved, then the prior provincial (local superior), before contacting the prior general.

 

[JReducation]

The local superior would be the prior provincial, who is delegated by the prior general, to appoint the prioresses in the convents.

In other orders the friars are not allowedd to interfere with the convents of nuns. The Dominicans and Franciscans have different rules and constitutions for the nuns. The nuns govern themselves and elect their own abbess. The friars are not allowed to interfere, because Dominic and Francis founded the friars and the nuns as autonomous orders subject only to them.

This is another important difference. In some orders you are going to find a closer relationship between the men and women and in others there is very little contact. For example, St. Francis wrote in the rule that he gave St. Clare that the friars were not obliged to provide for their spiritual and sacramental needs, nor for their financial needs. They abbess had to provide for those needs. He wrote into the friars’ rule and the rule of the Brothers of Penance “The brothers are forbidden to have susupicious intercourse with nuns.” We are not allowed to talk to nuns unless there is another nun or another brother.

Then you have communities like the Jesuits who never had female counterparts. Each family is very unique.

The prior provincial also appoints the priors in his province though he may allow a large house to vote he is not bound by that vote.

These are important differences folks. In most orders of mendicants the local superior is the superior of the house and he is always appointed, never elected. There is not option, like the Carmelites have.

The constitutions of the order detail what a prior provincial can do and what he can excuse from, we also have our own particular constitutions for the province that spell out somethings that are only vaguely laid out in the constitutions of the order or spell out special items for our province.

This is important. Just because you’re dealing with Carmelites does not necessarilly mean that they have the same statutes for every region. It would be unfair to expect total uniformity. Just as the Franciscans and Benedictines have diversity between houses.

As for issues with ministries within the province, the first person to contact is the prior of the house involved, then the prior provincial (local superior), before contacting the prior general.

This is pretty standard for orders of men, but not for congregations of men. Congregations of men are governed differently and have a different hierarchical system.

For example, everyone wanted to kill Fr. Jenkins of ND. Everyone wanted to know why the Brothers of the Holy Cross did not move Fr. Jenkins. Congregations of men rarely own their colleges and schools. They are not allowed to make up more than 1/3 of the Board of Trustees. The rest of the Board must be secular. Therefore, the congregation has no voice over what goes on there. The male religious work there under contract and they can get sued if they break the contract. The Brothers of the Holy Cross could not move Fr. Jenkins, because they did not have the legal authority to do so. Canon law does not allow them to violate civil contracts. They must be terminated by mutual agreement.

Orders of men usually own their colleges. For example the Franciscan own Franciscan University. We have no contracts. The friars are assigned by the Minister Provincial. Had ND been run by an order, the situation may have been handled differently. The Minister Provincial would have had a voice over the university.

Before we open our mouths and say something disrespectful or mean, we should always ask questions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wina]

In other orders the friars are not allowedd to interfere with the convents of nuns. The Dominicans and Franciscans have different rules and constitutions for the nuns. The nuns govern themselves and elect their own abbess. The friars are not allowed to interfere, because Dominic and Francis founded the friars and the nuns as autonomous orders subject only to them.

This is another important difference. In some orders you are going to find a closer relationship between the men and women and in others there is very little contact. For example, St. Francis wrote in the rule that he gave St. Clare that the friars were not obliged to provide for their spiritual and sacramental needs, nor for their financial needs. They abbess had to provide for those needs. He wrote into the friars’ rule and the rule of the Brothers of Penance “The brothers are forbidden to have susupicious intercourse with nuns.” We are not allowed to talk to nuns unless there is another nun or another brother.

Then you have communities like the Jesuits who never had female counterparts. Each family is very unique.

These are important differences folks. In most orders of mendicants the local superior is the superior of the house and he is always appointed, never elected. There is not option, like the Carmelites have.

This is important. Just because you’re dealing with Carmelites does not necessarilly mean that they have the same statutes for every region. It would be unfair to expect total uniformity. Just as the Franciscans and Benedictines have diversity between houses.

This is pretty standard for orders of men, but not for congregations of men. Congregations of men are governed differently and have a different hierarchical system.

For example, everyone wanted to kill Fr. Jenkins of ND. Everyone wanted to know why the Brothers of the Holy Cross did not move Fr. Jenkins. Congregations of men rarely own their colleges and schools. They are not allowed to make up more than 1/3 of the Board of Trustees. The rest of the Board must be secular. Therefore, the congregation has no voice over what goes on there. The male religious work there under contract and they can get sued if they break the contract. The Brothers of the Holy Cross could not move Fr. Jenkins, because they did not have the legal authority to do so. Canon law does not allow them to violate civil contracts. They must be terminated by mutual agreement.

Orders of men usually own their colleges. For example the Franciscan own Franciscan University. We have no contracts. The friars are assigned by the Minister Provincial. Had ND been run by an order, the situation may have been handled differently. The Minister Provincial would have had a voice over the university.

Before we open our mouths and say something disrespectful or mean, we should always ask questions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks Bro.

So every region will have their own statutes. And each region will not interfere for other region? If yes, no wonder that although the order is the same but the way of life for each region are different.

 

[joandarc2008]

I really don’t want to hijack the thread but since there is so much experience on here from different orders I am discerning a third order. My husband is very supportive and encouraging but I was wondering if any of you would mind PM’ing with any comments you might have on your own third orders of your religious orders. Thank you and God bless.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks Bro.

So every region will have their own statutes. And each region will not interfere for other region? If yes, no wonder that although the order is the same but the way of life for each region are different.

We also have to remember that in international orders suchas Carmelites, Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits and so forth, you’re also going to have cultural differences. Therefore you need to have some guidelines for the region or province. In the USA five friars having to share two cars is austerity, because we come from homes where everyone has a car. In some countries of South America having two cars is a luxury since only the wealthy can afford cars. So you have sit down and discuss what is poverty in the context where you are. That’s just one example of variations within one order.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

These are important differences folks. In most orders of mendicants the local superior is the superior of the house and he is always appointed, never elected. There is not option, like the Carmelites have.

Technically even if the prior provincial allows a house to vote for prior it is only a consultative vote and is not binding. No matter what the prior is appointed.

I only am of aware of one case where this was done in my province. If what I hear is correct.

 

[JReducation]

Technically even if the prior provincial allows a house to vote for prior it is only a consultative vote and is not binding. No matter what the prior is appointed.

I only am of aware of one case where this was done in my province. If what I hear is correct.

But there is some room for consultation, if the Provincial wants to use it. In the other mendicant orders, consultation on this matter is not allowed. You get who you get as local superior and you’re told about it a month in advance. I was just trying to point out that we’re not all cut out of the same mold.

Since the thread starts with the topic of disrespect, I believe that sometimes disrespect comes from not understanding. When people don’t understand the differences between religious communities or between religious and diocesan, etc etc, people have expectations that are unreasonable.

We had one just las month. We (not me personally) serve in a parish where there are six lay friars and one friar priest. The priest cannot be appointed pastor. He is the parish administrator. The reason that he cannot be appointed pastor is because the Guardian and the Vicar of the house are lay brothers. If he were appointed pastor that would create a conflict with two authorities in one house, since the Guardian works in the parish as a pastoral associate and the Vicar is the parish’s financial administrator.

Someone had a complaint about the confession schedul and went to the Guardian who referred the person to the Parish Administrator who explained that confessions have to stop at 5:00 because he has to leave to go to Vespers and community meal. This person was incensed because “No one can do anything around here since we don’t have a real pastor.”

The issue is not a pastor, the issue is the conflict in schedules. Confessions go from 3:30 to 5:00. If you’re late, you have to come next Saturday or make an appointment…

But people get very disrespectful, mostly Catholics, because they don’t understand that the Carmelites up the street are not Franciscans and the Franciscans are not diocesans down the road. Part of that is our fault. We rarely talk about our way of life in our parishes, from the pulpit or in catechesis. Part of the disrespect simply comes from people who shoot first and ask questions later.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Since the thread starts with the topic of disrespect, I believe that sometimes disrespect comes from not understanding. When people don’t understand the differences between religious communities or between religious and diocesan, etc etc, people have expectations that are unreasonable.

I know what you are talking about here and what everyone else on the thread so far is discussing disrespect.

But what prompted this thread is the out right disrespect of religious, some examples are one uses stated that he doubts that those who are self identifying as religious on this forum are not really such. Or where a user resorts to a personal attack rather than discussing what was said, such as when a response to one of my posts on celibacy was that I sound like a medieval monk or where I pointed out statistics on sexual abuse I was accused of saying it is ok.