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o_mlly
Guest
Another wannabee moderator? Lighten up, my dear.
Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican
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tafan2
Guest
Who holds that view? Straw man argument as the the Church’s teaching on an employers responsibility to pay a just wage.
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graciew
Guest
They do.
That doesn’t mean that if sharing fairly what one can and it is better for a person than nothing and it helps both a bit, the Church won’t go chasing you.
Now if I buy a palace that requires ten persons to clean it and I can afford 3 well paid, and abuse the need of the people and hire ten for a miser, then why did I buy a palace in the first place?
If 3 persons is what I can afford fairly, then I ll have to clean myself also or deal with some dirt, but not underpay persons because my whim or bad idea of something bigger than was reasonable justifies it.
That is why I don’t understand when people complain if they have an enterprise objectively bigger than what was reasonable. Let more people own smaller ones but don’t abuse the need of the people.
On the other hand, it is true that sometimes some unions complicate things unnecessarily in some places, same as some taxes for the sake of catching up with their own administrative faults…
So at a personal level,I don’t believe it is so difficult to understand…as a general conversation.
The minimum wage gives a bottom line of the basics. I don’t remember personally to have paid the minimum because it is normally a bit low and not realistic say in my area. So really one has to use the head and the heart …as if the other person were you
Thinking with you…
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o_mlly
Guest
What is “well enough”?
If the parish budget does not give priority to paying a just wage then the sin falls on the parish administrator.
If the parish budget or diocesan budget records a surplus and some employees are not paid a just wage then the sin falls on the administrators.
On average most parishes run an operating budget with a surplus:
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The accumulation of vast amounts of capital by the Church whether in the diocese (the bishop nominally owns all diocesan property) or in the Vatican seems not only disordered but a source of temptation to those who control such large sums.
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Annie
Guest
As I said earlier, I think that society’s provision of a safety net is a substitute for what used to be socially provided by “the commons.”
When it comes to minimum wage, that would be an entry-level amount, ie, a “training” amount. That should not be a living wage because the people at that level are learning as well as working.
And a lot of them are living at home and so do not need a “living wage,” and those who are not living at home should be able to tap into “the commons,” ie, the social safety net.
Most people are able to rise above that entry level, but some are not, for example, a mentally challenged person may never be able to move out of that level. But that person will also never be able to increase his contribution, either.
Society should make up the difference when it is needed, so that everyone can have access to employment.
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Crocus
Guest
Though every line is relevant, we shouldn’t have to quote the entire document to pick out the meat & potatoes. Think dignity, sustenance.
The following perhaps?
Anything less than a living wage violates the premise of justice as written here, worth contemplating.
Also, Matthew 20:10-16
The master of the vineyard gave a denarius (wage for a day’s work) also to the workers hired late in the day, respecting their need for a living wage.
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Crocus
Guest
Rather, society should give priority to the worker in recognition of his dignity as a human being, who makes his rightful claim on the goods of the earth through the labour of his hands. Anything less is cheating him.
I started a couple of times to respond to your points but find I cannot reproduce the beauty contained in the encyclicals, as they describe work, society, and the human person. I believe you are a caring person who sees existing programs in their best light.
A lot of people are content with the system as you describe. It’s not perfect, no system is perfect, that’s why the papal encyclicals come out time and again, urging societies to seek better solutions, that more faithfully serve the dignity of the human person.
The best way to give velocity to money is to make sure that everybody has some of it leftover to spend.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
Let me take that and spin it slightly askew.
The ideal situation is where people have money left over that they can choose to spend or choose to save.
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Annie
Guest
Wait! I have also (iirc) described problems in the current US system which do not recognize the dignity of persons receiving welfare, most blatant (afaik) being that of making a transition to higher levels of employment difficult or impossible due to premature loss of benefits.
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pnewton
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IsaiahSpirit
Guest
Reading from Holy Scripture, of course, and Encyclicals for the last 170 years, or so - Catholic Social Teaching does not condone getting behind policies that separate the natural law, which includes objective morality nor licensed human laws aimed at marginalizing the weak and helpless.
When equal opportunity laws developed the concept of justice was high jacked gradually in a vast way to associate economic justice and autonomy exalted with moral relativism. In addition, there is much talk associating the concepts of free enterprise with greed and marginalizing the poor, even
heartlessness toward the poor.
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Just like the anesthetizing effect of decades, even centuries of institutional
slavery, recent decades anesthetized the immense injustice of indoctrinating children at younger and younger ages against the just laws of nature, along side the acceptance of a vast human sanctioned victimology of helpless tiny human beings. The justification that many use is that if we have more economic justice then the cause of families perceiving the disordered grave moral evil of murdering helpless children for earthly needs for the rest will be diminished then made illegal.
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The Holy Bible, like the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Gospel, Epistles never condoned a dichotomy of economic justice being complacent with complacency toward human legalized depravity. And Catholic Social Teaching taken as a whole does not, either. In our day every single level of stewardship has groups conveying these things one way or another. Like over congeniality regarding an entrenched policy of moral relativistic culture of death because of a perceived by the decades long communication of one group is for social programs caring for the poor and the other side doesn’t care about justice for the poor very much.
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Thank God for the Bishops, Priests, learned accomplished laity and others who teach and convey with clarity on these things. So many convey with so much abstract concepts it comes across as a cloud of ambiguity.
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It took decades to gradually fall into the current mind set that Leo xiii warned was happening during his pontificate. John Paul ii gave a lot of clarity in his, for example, Evangelium Vitae which called for a vast sustained visible sign of charity and life for the world.
Peace.
When equal opportunity laws developed the concept of justice was high jacked gradually in a vast way to associate economic justice and autonomy exalted with moral relativism. In addition, there is much talk associating the concepts of free enterprise with greed and marginalizing the poor, even
heartlessness toward the poor.
~
Just like the anesthetizing effect of decades, even centuries of institutional
slavery, recent decades anesthetized the immense injustice of indoctrinating children at younger and younger ages against the just laws of nature, along side the acceptance of a vast human sanctioned victimology of helpless tiny human beings. The justification that many use is that if we have more economic justice then the cause of families perceiving the disordered grave moral evil of murdering helpless children for earthly needs for the rest will be diminished then made illegal.
~
The Holy Bible, like the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Gospel, Epistles never condoned a dichotomy of economic justice being complacent with complacency toward human legalized depravity. And Catholic Social Teaching taken as a whole does not, either. In our day every single level of stewardship has groups conveying these things one way or another. Like over congeniality regarding an entrenched policy of moral relativistic culture of death because of a perceived by the decades long communication of one group is for social programs caring for the poor and the other side doesn’t care about justice for the poor very much.
~
Thank God for the Bishops, Priests, learned accomplished laity and others who teach and convey with clarity on these things. So many convey with so much abstract concepts it comes across as a cloud of ambiguity.
~
It took decades to gradually fall into the current mind set that Leo xiii warned was happening during his pontificate. John Paul ii gave a lot of clarity in his, for example, Evangelium Vitae which called for a vast sustained visible sign of charity and life for the world.
Peace.
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Annie
Guest
Welcome to CAF
Double returns make paragraphs easier to see and the entire post easier to read, esp. for those of us reading tiny type on cell phones
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Ender
Guest
No, the assertion I was responding to is that they owe an employee a living wage, which is not the same as a just wage. A just wage is is determined by the working conditions, the nature of the job, the uniqueness of the skill; a living wage is determined by the needs of the worker independent of the value of his work.
No, I reject this interpretation. Nor is there anything explicitly said by the church in any document that says this. Where is the justice in paying a high school kid $10/hr to flip burgers and paying a father with a family $40/hr for the same job? The church does not require this. She repeatedly stresses just wages, but she never says a living wage is a moral obligation.
What two sentences are you referring to? There is nothing in the OP suggesting that the specific interpretations of Catholic Social Doctrine give by any one group are accurate. In particular there is no support for the claim that a just wage is the same as a living wage.
The assertion that “so many American Catholic thinkers dissent from magisterial teaching on social and economic issues” is generic. Demonstrating that it is true in a particular instance requires an argument to support it, and so far nothing convincing has been presented.
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IsaiahSpirit
Guest
Thank you.
I’m sorry, I do try to separate paragraphs, I re-edited to make up for my mistake.
Personally, I find it extremely difficult to fathom discussions on cell phone in comment forums. I almost never do it.
Peace.
I’m sorry, I do try to separate paragraphs, I re-edited to make up for my mistake.
Personally, I find it extremely difficult to fathom discussions on cell phone in comment forums. I almost never do it.
Peace.
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Annie
Guest
I go online during short breaks, so I almost always read on my cell phone! If I used my computer, I would just stay online…
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Crocus
Guest
I would not characterize as accumulation of “vast amounts of capital.” Numbers seem well within measures of good business management.
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pnewton
Guest
The sum total of the OP’s topic is, “In your experience, are Catholics aware of Catholic Social Teaching? If they know of it, why would they not agree with it?” That is two sentences.
I won’t argue this, but only say that it is my opinion, and my experience here that many do, often under the excuse of prudential judgement, something that would never fly if applied to abortion legislation.
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Maximus1
Guest
It is hard to reconcile naked Capitalism with Catholic Social and ethical theology. It seems there are many authors and theologians who have layed secularism rise at the feet of Capitalism. But this is another OP.
THE account I provided comes directly from the case record of the Ford Pinto case. The actuarial calculation, everything. The lawyers were handed a smoking gun in that case( rare, but fortunate in giving a glimpse into practice). A document that literally layed out the figures and decision. It served to proove the elements of manslaughter.
THE account I provided comes directly from the case record of the Ford Pinto case. The actuarial calculation, everything. The lawyers were handed a smoking gun in that case( rare, but fortunate in giving a glimpse into practice). A document that literally layed out the figures and decision. It served to proove the elements of manslaughter.
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IsaiahSpirit
Guest
Unbridled capitalism would let free enterprise totally govern itself and be the flip side of a socialistic communistic economy. Selling a culture of death with promises of governmental over governance of the economy is far more removed from catholic social teaching and conveys a certain abstraction from seeing the most weak and helpless as worthy as anyone else for the Creator given inalienable right to life, the atmosphere of these children being seen as expendable for some other social justice grows or maintains the status quo. Not to mention by virtual silence on these grave moral evils by immense factions aids and abets the ability for those seeking power to legally force education on the young more and more toward a moral relativistic culture of death with thousand upon thousands of victims.
Thank God we have equal opportunity laws, pollution laws and such things to help deter free enterprise. Like all fallible human institutions, their will be those who find ways to abuse no matter what type of economy there is.
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Just like the institution of slavery lasted so long by complacency. The collectivist claims have always failed, for example, the ‘bread’ and/or ‘circuses’ of The Roman Empire. Its just wrapped up in more palatable playing at heart strings palpable terminology and rhetoric aimed at the emotions. The purveyors speak for themselves, and so many teach complacency of giving consent to the status quo, with many of these purveyors stating positions for policies and laws to make it worse.
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It a radio address before 1950, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen gave an address,
that seemed so unthinkable at the time. There won’t be a red caped devil with horns. It will be a so called ‘new’ humanitarian soft on conveying objective moral virtue for inner peace and the common good mimic Church that so many would be unaware while immersed within it; practically eclipsing sound Teaching by a remnant Church. He described a pastoral social justice humanitarian pastoral Church with most unaware because of it coming about so slowly it would be almost imperceptible. A non Catholic Evangelist David Wilkerson described our days decades ago, when it seemed the extreme things veiled in ‘congenial’ so called ‘non judgmental’ language today could not happen. He did not even want to give the sermon because it was so shocking. Now a days, it has no shock value, we are immersed in what he described.
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Well, Bishop Sheen also said keep joyful hope and strength from The Lord while The Church under goes the trials of these days; that so many will not be aware of it happening.
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Peace.
Thank God we have equal opportunity laws, pollution laws and such things to help deter free enterprise. Like all fallible human institutions, their will be those who find ways to abuse no matter what type of economy there is.
~
Just like the institution of slavery lasted so long by complacency. The collectivist claims have always failed, for example, the ‘bread’ and/or ‘circuses’ of The Roman Empire. Its just wrapped up in more palatable playing at heart strings palpable terminology and rhetoric aimed at the emotions. The purveyors speak for themselves, and so many teach complacency of giving consent to the status quo, with many of these purveyors stating positions for policies and laws to make it worse.
~
It a radio address before 1950, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen gave an address,
that seemed so unthinkable at the time. There won’t be a red caped devil with horns. It will be a so called ‘new’ humanitarian soft on conveying objective moral virtue for inner peace and the common good mimic Church that so many would be unaware while immersed within it; practically eclipsing sound Teaching by a remnant Church. He described a pastoral social justice humanitarian pastoral Church with most unaware because of it coming about so slowly it would be almost imperceptible. A non Catholic Evangelist David Wilkerson described our days decades ago, when it seemed the extreme things veiled in ‘congenial’ so called ‘non judgmental’ language today could not happen. He did not even want to give the sermon because it was so shocking. Now a days, it has no shock value, we are immersed in what he described.
~
Well, Bishop Sheen also said keep joyful hope and strength from The Lord while The Church under goes the trials of these days; that so many will not be aware of it happening.
~
Peace.
M
Maximus1
Guest
Marxism is not Catholic social theology. I am against Marxism.
The world is not either /or.
I was making a point in response to a claim about Democrats.
The world is not either /or.
I was making a point in response to a claim about Democrats.
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