Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican

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IsaiahSpirit said:
This statement sure confuses me. I don’t classify myself as ‘conservative’ and certainly not ‘liberal’ but a proponent for Biblical justice
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This may be a surprise, but in most areas I am fiscally conservative, and prior to the tea party movement, was staunchly Republican. I still am what the Republican Party was, though I no longer support the current party. If not for abortion, I would even consider voting Democrat and supporting them, as a renewed Southern Democrat. For now, I am just one of the disenfranchised floating in the middle, what once was the right.

Also, I am concerned about the phrase “biblical justice.” It is not something the Church uses. Besides having connotations of sola scripture, it it too close to the idea of Old Testament justice. Even at the time of Christ, the social situation is too different than today, and understanding the principles behind what justice is, takes context. Jesus did not give us a book to use. He never wrote one word Himself. he left us a living, authoritative, and apostolic Church.
 
They gave it to the Church, which distributed each according to need.
Jesus said give it away and follow me.
Jesus and his deciples were apparently bankrolled, my guess is if the rich man did what Jesus said, he would not be dying of starvation. Jesus fed the multitude, he wasn’t challenging the rich man to commit suicide.
 
David Bentley Hart wrote,
“My basic argument is that a Capitalist culture is, of necessity, a secularist culture, no matter how long the QUAINT CUSTOMS AND INTUITIONS of FOLK PIETY may persist among some of its citizens; that secularism simply is capitalism IN ITS FULL CULTURAL MANIFESTATION; that late capitalism ’ consumerism’-- with it’s attendant ethos of voluntarism, exuberant and interminable inquisitiveness, self absorbtion,’ lust of the eyes’ and moral relativism-- is not an accidental accretion upon an essentially BENIGN ECONOMIC SYSTEM, , but the INEVITABLE result of the most fundemental capitalist values.”
Mr Hart’s writings in philosophy, theology and many subjects are among the most insightful and robust in modern Christianity.
I like this quote because it anticipates and addresses virtually every attempt to harmonize Capitalism ( as BENIGN) with the Gospel message. Hart goes on to support his assertion in his usual adept manner. All should read it.
That said, I offer no opinions from myself or anyone putting forth a different model. Catholic Social Doctrine does not outline for an actual economy.
I percieved the purposes of the writings on Capitalism simply to get people to recognise fundemental shortcomings of the system. And to address and dispense with ideas that somehow attempt to say the system is something it is not.
This is what makes his writings important. The relativism, consumerism and secularism realities are real. And once we can accept that and recognise these " isms" are inconsistent with our faith, then we can address a remedy consistent with the catechism.
I see that as a worthy conversation
 
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Biblical justice is my term for what was handed down from the Apostles, Early Church Fathers and to our very day through The Church.
The gradual forced education of children by government mandate against even parental conscience along side government sanctioned mass murder of helpless children are the main problems facing us today.
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Here is a thought experiment. Put the rhetoric on the mouths of those who promote these policies in the 1950s. They wouldn’t have a chance to get into office. But these things happened so gradually, we don’t see the shock value enough, whereby those who even sanction late term born children to die, as abortionists snip their necks to silence their tiny muffled screams, or left to painfully die suffocating on a medical table get into office.
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As consciences goes so goes society. So, if so many are duped into some kind of material based redistribute the wealth & other social justice concerns, with many being with since the fall of man; and these methods always fail in history - but using them as ‘prudential judgement’ to justify not turning the tide for policies ultimately ‘We The People’ are responsible for putting in place - only God knows what we will reap by continuing to sow this.
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Bishop Sheen warned of a so called ‘mimic’ Church within and along side the Remnant Church that will loose focus on promoting objective virtues for the good of everyone promoted a so called ‘new’ humanitarianism. Dietrich von Hildebrand wrote a book, I have the 1993 printing, "A Trojan Horse in The City of God: The Catholic Crises Explained,’ authorized by his wife Alice von Hildebrand, with a forward by John Cardinal O’Connor. Credible devout sweat of the brow witnesses.
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Here is a thought experiment. Put the rhetoric on the mouths of those who promote these policies in the 1950s. They wouldn’t have a chance to get into office. But these things happened so gradually, we don’t see the shock value enough, whereby those who even sanction late term born children to die, as abortionists snip their necks to silence their tiny muffled screams, or left to painfully die suffocating on a medical table get into office.
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Material based philosophical promises for practical use is nothing new along side oppression by classifying a group as not human, also along side taking away right of conscience of parents.
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The promises of better social justice with emotionally charged rhetoric in the human condition, getting power for proponents gets fuel my humankind’s thirst for justice because we are in the image and likeness of God. But clever distortion on just how grievous the magnitude of atrocities, and peer pressure & mandates against parental conscience dupe many.
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“Anyone who can appease a man’s conscience can take his freedom away from him.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, [The Grand Inquisitor]
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As we let our children’s minds be seduced so goes our future society. Our condition of what is perceived as ok to overlook, even acceptable is drastic, and it did not happen by accident.
 
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“QUAINT CUSTOMS AND INTUITIONS of FOLK PIETY” interesting comment. It was The Lord Jesus Christ that gave us the ideal of certain moral norms and ideals.
Material based ‘needs’ philosophies for better redistribution always go after this ethic in one way or another.
The heart of humankind is wicked and deceitful above all things, the free enterprise merit based equal opportunity system, is not to blame.
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Bishop Robert Barron uses a term ‘spiritual physics.’ As we the people gloss over and distort the growth of government sanctioned taking away of parental rights of conscience with forced education of children on morality referred to in the Declaration of Independence as Nature’s Laws, for some claims of economic promises by material based philosophies, we will reap what we sow.
The growth of substance abuse, depression, suicide we experience right now are just one symptom aided by these things, along side mass shootings.
I don’t buy your philosophy. Bartering systems not condemned by The Church have changed, but the abuses are due to greed in the human heart remain.
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I will agree with a ‘consumerist’ mentality, but this is fostered by the decrease in less acceptance of objective values in combination of advertisers using these things with great knowledge of human behavior.
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An example would be the gradual allowance of ‘soft porn’ right on public TV using abuses of the concept of free speech. It isn’t free enterprise as an institution that did this, it was we the people not using consent to be governed, right to peaceful assembly, and addressing our grievances that gave permission for it. And people have had consciences dulled, like with promises of some kind of economic justice by putting into power those who have gradually mandated secular education teach these grave moral evils to children. Only God knows how bad this will get.
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Its easy to attack free enterprise because of human greed abuses claiming it’s the system. This is far from new. The claims of a new redistribution of wealth according to need often coincide with a ‘new’ relativistic morality. (i.e. Marx who hated the Judaeo Christian Ethic.)
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These claims of yours do not make any sense in the face of logic that lust of the eyes is because of the free enterprise system for bartering rather than the inherent greed that humans fall into. I believe in an internal locus of control, The Kingdom of God, or corruption within as Jesus Christ taught, not the bartering system not condemned by Church Teaching.
 
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I am not saying you don’t care .Much less that thinking differently makes a person evil.
You come first. I don’t know what your life is like behind the screen and if this topic makes you uncomfortable, or miserable, that is important. The rest can wait.
We can touch base on it some other time eventually.
I don’t mind, Ender.
 
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IsaiahSpirit said:
Put the rhetoric on the mouths of those who promote these policies in the 1950s.
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It is 2019, almost 2020. That is a meaningless thought experiment, especially since you did not specify what rhetoric you speak of. The Catholic social doctrine is always applicable, though must be applied differently in each generation.
 
Interesting claim of yours.
The permission of adding to a climate of grave moral evil & atrocity ultimately falls on We The People.
The thought experiment show the stark contrast of what people give permission to happen then and now. Then it was like trying to put a frog in hot water, which would try to jump for it’s life; but there are those who put the frog in cool water and gradually heated it up to anesthetize the shock value today.
Why are they giving permission for stated policies to promote against conscience now to children now, but not then? Why permission of objective legislated grave moral atrocities now and not then?
This comparison doesn’t serve a purpose?
Because priorities are distorted by a much of a duped society to give permission.
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Isn’t it interesting that those who sell promises of better social justice, gradually do so with enticements of a climate of immorality as a ‘norm’ to be accepted as a human right. They have gradually espoused more and more policy agendas to mandate these things.
How many have said that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it?
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The mimic Church in pastoral care diminishing fostering and encouraging virtue with a so called ‘new’ humanitarianism prophesied by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen and others is upon us. It happened so gradually that most will not recognize it, as he also prophesied. Thank God he also exhorted the promise of the Remnant Church, that doesn’t distort the priorities of The Gospel and Church Teachings by The Promise of Jesus Christ will be here, and not loose hope as the Church endures this great trial.
(as I’ve noted before, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, Dietrich & Alice von Hildebrand who stood up to the emerging regime in Germany long before the obvious atrocities and attacks on religious liberty & free speech were known, even some Bishop’s criticized von Hildebrand up until the 1940s; Mother Angelica, Mother Teresa, and others warned us.)
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God knows how far mandated forced education for grave moral evils will go, along side increased peer pressure of ‘gas lighting’ free speech for objective virtues, and legislation for mandated penalties for those who use such speech. Thank God for heroes like ‘Little Sisters of The Poor,’ the baker who keeps getting sued, and others all because so many of ‘We The People’ by consent in being duped for promises of better social justice or redistribution of wealth in many forms to bring this atmosphere about.
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Many are duped into lack of shock value of consenting to be governed by those who sanction these things, and even atrocities against the least among us.
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The deception by definition is not easy to see in today’s climate. So the thought experiment is valid to contrast the atmosphere aided by consent of duped ‘We The People.’
I highly recommend watching a ‘Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing’ which airs on EWTN from time to time. There is a quote by someone which is not entirely accurate, that many use, but as a whole it shows some of the gradual duping by infiltration in The Church by many.
Peace.
 
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What are you talking about with the “Mimic “ Church pastoral whatever that means and “ new humanitarian” and who specifically are you referring to that you keep repeating it?
 
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Bishop Sheen did so in a radio address before 1950. But like the Church changes language of private revelations, (i.e. Faustina referring to Protestants as ‘heretics’ has been edited.) One must understand the metaphors Sheen used. When referring to the ‘mimic’ Church, he said it won’t be as a red caped devil with horns, but diminished focus on objective virtue and a so called new humanitarianism.
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It describes today very much. Especially with some of the subtle and sometimes open criticisms of the traditional teaching on these things painted as ‘finger wagging’ or ‘judgmental.’ In today’s heightened sensibilities we must take caution on how we convey these things compassionately yet assertive, not avoid them. The Apostles certainly did not in their Epistles.
 
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If you wish a link to a youtube video. But like I stated, he spoke in phrases current in his day. One must see the semantic metaphors to understand what he said. And while he speaks of a man, I don’t know anyone’s heart, so I avoid that part so I don’t get charged with deriding anyone in particular.
The concepts of the exhortation are extremely valid.
 
Thank you.
My mom loved Fulton Sheen(that is how she named him) and read his books.I remember “Life is worth living” which she used to mention . If there were others I don’t know…
The Church has never really gone “ cruising” really…
 
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The Church has never really gone “ cruising” really…
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I don’t know what you mean by this. But the pastoral atmosphere as changed drastically, rather then update how do exhort like the Apostles, the use of ‘avoidance’ of specifics is touted. It is a symptom which evidences the infiltration (and objective to curtail focus on objective virtue by enemies of The Church) some of the credible names I referenced referred. Many well meaning, at every stewardship of The Church simply do this because they think it is compassionate non judgmental. So the biased climate in colleges (even reports of these in Catholic ones) and media have a diminished opposition shaping conscience.
 
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Sorry… by “not cruising “ I mean that She has always had difficulties. Sometimes more than others.
I don’t see the change in the pastoral, as from the Church , where I live.
I don’t take CAF as a reference either, but maybe you are a student and that is how you perceive it in College…
Is that so?
 
I am not looking to offend you. I want to remind that I quoted Hart that is not mine. The "Quaint Custom"snippet you identified is his. And not wanting to insult you, I would only say that he was actually speaking about the points you are making. Obviously I had no idea you would be making them when I published his idea.
Kierkegaard 2 centuries ago said this:
The matter is quite simple. The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly. Take any words in the New Testiment and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly. My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined. How would I ever get on in the world?
I find this quote encapsulates the rest of the Constellation of arguments that Hart does not capture with his.
I initially did go back more centuries to Saint John Chrysostom, then Luke, then Jesus, but in fairness the modern theologians are directly discussing modern Capitalism.
You cited Bishop Barron who I really like. He likes David Bentley Hart, who arguably is the preminent philosopher/ theologian extant. Bishop Barron for example recognises that nobody makes the case for existence of God in all of Christianity than Hart today. ( Perhaps Fesser also). You should read the articles.
 
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A prayerful heartfelt well wishes for inner Peace by The Grace of Jesus Christ growing in each of us. I’m going to truly strive to stop commenting on this thread as the conversation is so circuitous. May we all receive, in our fallibility an objective understanding impartially given by The Holy Spirit and by His credible witnesses in our day.
Happy rest of Advent, and joyful holy Christmas.
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Worthy goals to pursue, but in prudential judgment to pursue these goals is it ok to keep giving consent to legislating mass murder of children,
and government mandates for children to be taught grave moral evils contrary to objective moral in The Kingdom of God even against parental conscience gradually happening all around us?
I don’t know anyone’s heart, but socialism and secular humanism each make claims, never fulfilled except in temporary ways, and often entice with some type of moral relativism in history.
I don’t know the reap what we sow end result of the intense focus on philosophies of material justice along side helping foster an atmosphere of objective morality, but the sources I sited from the twentieth century warned of these days. And some who know it today trying to foster knowledge are sometimes painted subtly or openly as old fashioned stodgy hard liners.
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I’m so glad I became educated by the likes of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, Dietrich & Alice von Hildebrand, Mother Teresa, John Cardinal O’Connor, and Mother Angelica as to what was transpiring. I can only inform, I cannot convince. This is not a ‘judgment’ on anyone’s conscience. God allowed this development for God’s purposes, and in the end the things I conveyed, apart from my mistakes, will be revealed as true.
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No, I’m 59 years old, with learning of those who came before us on the gradual shift.
 
I’m not offended. But your generalities and those philosophical claims you reference don’t fly in reference to what I learned form the credible sources I referenced.
 
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