Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican

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OK; I don’t understand why you quoted something unrelated to what you were saying, but these things happen.
Crocus said:
Cross my heart, disagreement is not my reason for promoting the encyclicals; I truly want to share an learn about them together. Truly, we cannot discuss them if either of us haven’t read them. Otherwise we’re just speaking politics.
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I know, it just amused me that the question kept popping up 🙂
 
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Annie said:
OK; I don’t understand why you quoted something unrelated to what you were saying
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Sometimes you have to back up 2 or 3 or more posts to follow the conversation to get the meaning. :woman_shrugging:t2: And on this one, IsaiahSpirit referred to food, clothing etc as a worthy goal but …
in prudential judgment to pursue these goals is it ok to keep giving consent to legislating mass murder of children,
and government mandates for children to be taught grave moral evils contrary to objective moral in The Kingdom of God even against parental conscience gradually happening all around us?
I don’t know anyone’s heart, but socialism and secular humanism each make claims, never fulfilled except in temporary ways, and often entice with some type of moral relativism in history.
I don’t know the reap what we sow end result of the intense focus on philosophies of material justice along side helping foster an atmosphere of objective morality, but the sources I sited from the twentieth century warned of these days. And some who know it today trying to foster knowledge are sometimes painted subtly or openly as old fashioned stodgy hard liners.
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I’m so glad I became educated by the likes of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, Dietrich & Alice von Hildebrand, Mother Teresa, John Cardinal O’Connor, and Mother Angelica as to what was transpiring. I can only inform, I cannot convince. This is not a ‘judgment’ on anyone’s conscience. God allowed this development for God’s purposes, and in the end the things I conveyed, apart from my mistakes, will be revealed as true.
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So, “but socialism and secular humanism,” is the active part of his/her post which again is saying social justice is socialism, which it’s not, and which RN says it’s not.

That’s kinda why, I quoted something that seemed to be unrelated to what I was saying.
 
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Crocus said:
So, “but socialism and secular humanism,” is the active part of his/her post which again is saying social justice is socialism, which it’s not, and which RN says it’s not.

That’s kinda why, I quoted something that seemed to be unrelated to what I was saying.
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I understand. I had read the entire sentence and thought he was against socialism, which fulfills its claims only temporarily if at all and attracted people through immorality.
 
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That is of course a difference in opinion.
At it’s core I believe the value of Hart’s idea is in recognition that Capitalism creates an appetite and persuit of values, and compromises antithetical to the Gospel values of Christ. Which I just do not think can be disputed.
And I think he leaves us at recognizing limitation to perhaps caution us against a kind of idolatry. ( Although perhaps that is my take, not his).
The temptations go beyond consumerism. We are immersed in lives where we are governed, much more than we know, by a system of esteem, shame, and self value that flows to us from without and inward. In a consumer driven relativistic and secular world, we are dependant on others that determine who we are and give us our own sense of self value. We become engaged in a persuit of maintaining esteem and staving off shame. It is only in faith that our soul, or Divine Indwelling, creates" intrinsic value" that flows from inside outwardly. A value not dependant on others. A value that fosters free will. This I think provokes the modern challenges to human dignity that the church has emphasized since Vatican II. Emphasis on restorative justice perhaps as well.
 
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Yes, I have read many Encyclicals.
But the goals are not is what I refer.
Intentions are good things, but how one goes about it is another.
Socialism has the same goals. And one of the techniques presented in a ‘Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing,’ presented on EWTN is to weaken moral fiber.
Some justify giving power to those who have those goal who deliberately change to also as stated policy and goals things like sanctioned mass murder, and justify sanctioned forced education of children, no matter what parents say, against objective moral virtue. (And it has been happening.)
The entirety of the effect in carrying out such goals coincides with the objectives of Frankfurt, Fabian, and Gramce socialism.
A tree is judged by it’s fruit.
I don’t know anyone’s heart, but I do not want Jesus Christ to say to me on judgement day, with me saying ‘I stood up for the poor and social justice’ and Him say to me, ‘I told you not all who say Lord, Lord will inherit the Kingdom of God, for you also aided at atmosphere of justifying grave moral evils poisoning the minds of children & murdering children for emotional justifications.’
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It is true invincible lack of knowledge, - sins of evil, like cooperating with it, but conscience not realizing it, can be forgiven and purified by The Lord.
But Jesus Christ also taught me, to whom much is given much is required.
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Looking at the whole picture, I don’t want it to be worse for me than a millstone put around my neck and cast into the sea on judgement day, because I aided an atmosphere for ‘little ones’ to be led astray.
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If we do not give the same God given dignity and support for children helpless, and what children get taught as anyone else; we give an overall uneven effort for everyone.
Peace.
 
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You have not given an objective argument by The Gospel nor Teachings nor writings of The Church, a condemnation of the merit based equal opportunity freed enterprise system. You showed that abuses are condemned.
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And the philosophy you tout condemns it as inherently evil, but The Church doesn’t, The Church only condemns the abuses.
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Call it opinion all you want, it’s up to you to give and objective, non personal interpretation on applications of Scripture and Church Teachings;
you, nor the philosophy you tout does this.
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It’s easy to point fingers at it, with opinions, generalities, but you have not given objective proof.
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I sited exhortations of those in the twentieth century as to the atmosphere coming upon us, and the reasons why. The atmosphere they spoke of, was diminished exhortation on objective virtues with specifics and raising up social justice and humanitarian concerns. And it is exactly what is happening being put forth by many stewardship levels in The Church. EWTN, happens to be not one of those witnessing the Gospel this way.
~
Peace.
 
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Ok, a specific example, would be someone wishing consent to carry out policies saying, ‘I am for not protecting children in the womb because they may be a burden on the family & mother, and for teaching children sins in public schools against objective moral virtues as a human right’ along side, ‘I have policies that would distribute wealth to the needy.’
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That man would not get enough support from the public in the 1950s to get consent to have power to carry out those policies. In today’s anesthetized atmosphere, there are all kinds of justifications that seem logical whereby so many are duped into supporting this or by supporting the person, even if it isn’t their intent - the fruit happens anyway. Thus the status quo of the atmosphere continues, and by attrition will get worse if we do not educate the young, because so many are duped into support those who tout those policies. This stands to reason. Contribute to something being planted, and it will grow the fruit it claims to foster.
~
Peace.
 
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IsaiahSpirit said:
And it is exactly what is happening being put forth by many stewardship levels in The Church. EWTN, happens to be not one of those witnessing the Gospel this way.
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And do you think that tossing doubts out there about “many stewardship levels” help the “ little ones”?
Does EWTN weigh so much that you keep it going with the “ Wolf” against bishops or even the Pope?
Yes… by the fruits we will be known…and by the direction…
This encyclical spells workdviews quite clearly. We can cite what Saint JPII has to say rather than our opinions.
 
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We were in a living room , just three of us and this couple.My friends were awesome sailors,a European family,so somehow they had met. Her name was Robin if I am not mistaken…
I don’t know… what I know is I just couldn’t believe that the one sitting there was me! 😁
I must have been between 15 and 19 years old . I see you are a chick 🐥 yet as me!!😁
 
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Pointing toward a credible source like EWTN, is not uncharitable.
Saul Alinsky, so called ‘community organizer’ was the wolf referred to
in ‘A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing.’ At the end, we are exhorted to pray
for him, even though he, Alinsky, spoke for himself that he chooses hell to help the ‘have nots,’ there.
In every historical setting we have those who address historical times
in specifics according to God’s Will, we must discern the many voices.
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By siting ‘stewardship levels.’ with the concepts I have asserted by things
I learned from credible witness I have sited, very apropos to now,
as we always must discern, who is conveying what The Holy Spirit
desires more, for each of our personal lives, and the good of others.
It certainly is not an uncharitable thing, considering the stakes. I’m not pointing fingers as you seem to be asking.
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You wish a quote from John Paul ii, here are some.
" Life, truth, love: words full of stimulating suggestions for human efforts in the world. They are rooted in the message of Jesus Christ, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, but they are also impressed upon the hearts and yearnings of every man and woman."
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" 3. The evidence shows with increasing clarity how policies and laws opposed to life are causing societies to decline, not only morally but demographically and economically. The Encyclical’s message can therefore be presented not only as true and authentic guidelines for moral rebirth, but also as a reference-point for civil salvation. "
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“Pastors, the faithful and people of good will, especially if they are lawmakers, are asked for a renewed and united commitment to change unjust laws that legitimize or tolerate such violence.
No effort should be spared to eliminate legalized crime or at least to limit the damage caused by these laws, but with the vivid awareness of the radical duty to respect every human being’s right to life from conception until natural death, including the life of the lowliest and the least gifted.”
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" Through joint educational activity in families and schools, efforts should be made so that these services become a “sign” and a message. Just as the community needs places of worship, it should sense the need to organize, especially at the diocesan level, educational and operational services to support human life, services that will be the fruit of charity and a sign of vitality.
6. The changing of laws must be preceded and accompanied by the changing of mentalities and morals on a vast scale, in an extensive and visible way. In this area the Church will spare no effort nor can she accept negligence or guilty silence."
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" As I trust that this commemoration will stir new and zealous efforts to defend human life and to spread the culture of life, I invoke upon you all and upon those who work with you in this sensitive area the intercession of Mary “Dawn of the new world, Mother of the living” (Evangelium Vitae n. 105), and cordially give you my Apostolic Blessing."
: - excerpt from ADDRESS OF THE HOLY FATHER JOHN PAUL II AT THE COMMEMORATION OF THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY
OF THE ENCYCLICAL “EVANGELIUM VITAE”
Monday, 14 February 2000
 
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Thank you for the quote.And the trouble it took to look it up and post it.
I honestly thought you were referring to worldviews .
It may be me who finds it hard to follow your posts.
I don’t watch that channel btw.so that you know. Only for a brief period the interviews and then no more.
Thank you.
 
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I cited written articles that systematically make the case that Capitalism leads to a secular society.
Bishop Sheen was an avid opponent of communism during the red scare. Wartime. A close friend of Hoover sharing this cause. He also spoke of the abuses of Capitalism but always viewed an either/ or of Capitalism and Communism.
I have read some of his speeches and he spoke of the existence of Unions and other realities in his time. Those realities no longer exist. We are in a second gilded age. Consumerism is rampant.
The virtues of expectation and realities of Capitalism are in conflict. You cannot keep the money lenders and root for people on to overcome their presence.
I see abortion somehow dominates even a discussion of social justice. It is a false choice as far as I can tell. I cannot help but notice the pattern: Because it might do X to abortion in America, therefore we must refrain completely. That isn’t new.
Secularism and relativism we can agree are prevalent. We might also agree they are a factor in today’s abortion crisis. My position is that capitalism spawns secularism.
 
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Maximus1 said:
I see abortion somehow dominates even a discussion of social justice. It is a false choice as far as I can tell. I cannot help but notice the pattern: Because it might do X to abortion in America, therefore we must refrain completely. That isn’t new.
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I see the issue as a ploy that keeps enough people distracted so that other evils need not be addressed. To many, it is mutually exclusive to:
a) save lives of group A
b) save lives of group B
 
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May I ask do you have a world wide source of an overview of applying
love and God and neighbor? To help discern; our Beloved Redeemer Jesus Christ,
by The Holy Spirit - not only for personal growth in letting Christ grown
within, for whole fiber of being in thoughts, words, and actions grow
more prudent in objective moral virtue - but also to read the signs of the times,
Jesus Christ wishes us to read as objectively as possible in our own foibles?
~
For this thread, sources like EWTN, for a balance perspective is invaluable.
For example, I follow Word On Fire, also, even though one of their purposes
is finding ‘Seeds of The Word,’ in culture and this particular objective leading with
objective radiant aesthetics (beauty) to help invite discernment of Jesus Christ
in His Church, has more caution for an overview of all the aspects of all the apropos
vital things happening in our world. But, if I just did that, (Word On Fire), I couldn’t
discern a more objective overview of the things I discuss, like this thread, simply
because I overly concentrate on that particular public ministry.
I also follow, Ascension Presents, Renewal Ministries, Priests For Life,
Wordnet Productions, commentaries on daily Mass Readings put out by
the U.S.C.C.B on youtube, Catholic Answers videos from Dr. David Anders,
Jimmy Akins & others, and other ministries with Biblical texts related to our time.
(I do read current Church writings which depend on apropos writings in apropos
to our times recent Church writings to be applied, also. For example,
Evangelium Vitae - and the Address I sited. Those calls simply do not get extinguished,
like the Church Teaches. Same with “Familiaris Consortio”, it applies to the
Pastoral Encyclical Amoris Laetitia, which alludes to “The Internal Form” of Annulments,
which sometimes happen in Pastoral Care. The same is true of “Laudato Si”
discussing stewardship even referenced in The Garden of Eden, along side
a small part about the Sacredness of Human Life - whereby that reference needs
the Encyclical “Evangelium Vitae” to understand a magnitude perspective;
whereby children in the womb are also our brothers and sisters, with God given
dignity for our common home.)
~
Oh yeah, I forgot New Catholic Generation, but they are not
very active these days, although Rene Shumay (a.k.a. Reborn Pure Catholic)
from time to time still puts out youtube prayer videos with a ‘gathering’ period
with songs & discussion that varies in content before The Holy Rosary.
~
With so many credible sources; - it curtails my own personal ‘take’ or even letting emotions
unknowingly distort my outlook for things that may incense me for application
of Church Teachings, especially if they are conveyed in a manner I don’t like;
  • which may prevent me from understanding what that particular ‘voice’ is saying
    for objective application of Church Teaching.
    The same is true of perspectives on how we got to the days in which we live.
    Peace.
 
Bishop Sheen spoke more generally regarding how exhorting virtue in society helps society overall.
It wasn’t just about over totalitarian Communism, it was also about the general case of agenda’s marginalizing or diminishing objective moral virtue
for over exalting humanitarian ideas at the detriment of helping foster objective moral virtue.
~
You can cite all you want, regarding a merit based, (i.e. a cook does not qualify as a doctor), equal opportunity free enterprise system, is not condemned by The Church, and therefore by Magisterial Authority,
it is a valid bartering system for families. Yes, abuses need to be addressed, whereby the abuses are condemned by The Church as objective moral evil.
~
Peace.
P.S. repeating this or that to assert a proof of capitalism as inherently evil,
doesn’t prove it. And citing person’s intentions of ‘ploys’ to decide whether the lives of one group are more important than others, while other’s definitely by expressed assertive policy objectives that one group does not deserve protection, (i.e. children in the womb) doesn’t hold water with me.
 
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I am saying “ worldviews” : Christian , Capitalist and Communist . The encyclical describes them…
The good priests in my neck of the woods are enough with me.They ve taught me a good deal,and have always been quite grateful and kind, and have been consistently pointing ☝️. No need for tv or media save for what the bishops or popes have to say.
Over styles, I prefer the dusty country roads and the radio on , with good music.Loud preferably .
I can give you a ride. Anytime.I ll turn the volume down if you wish…
 
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Maybe there should be a Baltimore Catechism equivalent for the social encyclicals. If social justice teachings cannot be explained in a straightforward manner, how can the average Catholic understand them?
 
Pope St John Paul II ,
I forgot to mention, just in case there is the slightest doubt…
 
graciew said:
That is what the Compedium of Social Doctrine of the Church is for.
And then we can follow the references there and read them in full. Plus what is added.
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Well yes, but it’s pretty far removed from a Baltimore Catechism. Just reading the table of contents is daunting. If Jesus had used the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church as a homiletic guide, I think his audience might have drifted off.
 
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