Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican

[Crocus]

I agree with a minimum wage. But terms like ‘standard of living’ and ‘quality of life,’ present difficulties.

Do you agree with the encyclical, that says workers should share in the benefits they create? What may they expect, according to the Pope? How can this justice come about?

Justice, therefore, demands that the interests of the working classes should be carefully watched over by the administration, so that they who contribute so largely to the advantage of the community may themselves share in the benefits which they create-that being housed, clothed, and bodily fit, they may find their life less hard and more endurable. It follows that whatever shall appear to prove conducive to the well-being of those who work should obtain favorable consideration. There is no fear that solicitude of this kind will be harmful to any interest; on the contrary, it will be to the advantage of all, for it cannot but be good for the commonwealth to shield from misery those on whom it so largely depends for the things that it needs.

I do not think the Pope is talking about handouts or food cards, programs you listed in your post. I think justice is very different and is basic to freedom.

remember the outcry when a reform was introduce for a work requirement for men receiving food stamps?

This ignores actual working people who are not afforded the dignity of a wage that covers their needs. Begging, handouts do not substitute for justice of a just share in the benefits of what they create.

overburdening business with taxes which provide jobs in the end harms the business’s ability to provide job.

I agree with you about not overburdening business, however that should not exclude smart taxes that do not do so. They know how to do it, don’t need advice from me how to do it.

Hear of trickle down? It doesn’t work, yet is very popular.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Right after Jesus Christ cleansed the Temple of money changers,
who sold shekels and copper coins without images(to represent a pure heart for God without earthy images) buying coins with images at an extreme robbery exchange rate.
Jesus Christ was asked by what authority he chased the money changers out. The elders assembled their represented every institution in Israel; which had authority over children or influenced children in they admired the particular elder.
Jesus Christ our Beloved Redeemer asked, did John The Baptist teach from Heaven’s origin or from humankind origin. They would not reply because then they would be required to testify John the Baptist was from God or representing humankind’s fallible agendas.
Not only were money changers indirectly robbing the money; they were sanctioned by the ‘clergy’ of the day. Extorting money meant for heartfelt offering for Worship, Love of God, and learning God’s Ways; through The Temple and rabbi in the partly Roman Republic partly ‘Empire.’ Along side the Roman government giving ‘bread’ (social justice) and/or ‘circuses’ (recreation - even things opposed to God or torturing those representing God were involved in ‘recreation.’) Backing the money changers of our day, and elders of our day; that also do humanism social justice; but mandate sanction teaching children immorality and mass murder of mostly helpless children - robs The Real Gold from The Treasury of Heaven, to build The Kingdom of God; so children are in a much better atmosphere to desire the ways of God.
Jesus Christ addressed all of society. The destitute, the poor, the ‘middle class,’ the rulers, and elders of society. John The Baptist, nor Our Lord Jesus Christ ever taught social justice at the expense of not promoting at atmosphere for desiring objective moral virtue (unless someone takes Scripture out of context for their ‘position’. Woe to those who are found complicit (not duped) for giving power to those who teach the children by example or policies for mandated teaching against God’s Ways.
~
The prophets of the twentieth century, even before in the 1800s; even those who stood up the many false philosophies of the middle ages that seemed appealing for ideologies to govern people warned this day was coming upon us and why.
~
I deeply care for children families and the poor, the way John Cardinal O’Connor and Mother Teresa’s example said to care about the poor.
~
" Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap; they have no storehouse or barn, yet God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than the birds!
Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? So if you cannot do such a small thing, why do you worry about the rest?" - Luke 12:22-26

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

“And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s , and to God the things that are God’s.” - Mark 12:17 We are responsible to render unto God what are tax money does to all of society; like children should not be forced enticing emotionally justified teaching against objective moral virtue. God help us!
~
The Lord Jesus Christ put Grace filled compassion in my heart in the signs of the times; do aid in anyway the atmosphere enticements against The Ways of God (objective moral virtue - part of The Treasury of Heaven; because some promise humanism social justice backing up policies that lure children (and un-knowledgeable adults) away from teach a desire for God’s Ways - part of Gold from Heaven for children.
~
Peace.

 

[Crocus]

Sorry, I am having a little trouble making sense of some of your sentences and whether you are commenting on the social justice encyclicals.

I am familiar with the scripture. St Paul tells us it is useful for teaching. The Church tells us also to listen to Tradition and the Magisterium.

Did you answer my question about agreement with what Pope Leo XIII said? I made quotes from the encyclical Rerum Novarum, which itself references scripture 28 times, plus doctors of the Church.

Edit: Just a thought, maybe you are not Catholic and don’t accept all that the Church teaches? (Your user profile does not state a religion.)

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Yes, I am Catholic.
I’ve read the Encyclicals.
I’m not getting into this or that statement and any long discussions in particular points. By the Grace of God, by Jesus The Christ, what I wrote can be prayerfully discerned. The Lord Jesus Christ is King, and taught how to govern by His Gospel. Teach the children virtue, and bearing fruit of The Holy Spirit. This brings about fruit from The Treasury from Heaven, and more success in families. Fostering an atmosphere for mandated teaching contrary that uses emotionalism to lure against God’s Ways because of material social justice brings less success for our main purpose; - which is to help children and adults desire to receive Grace to live by God’s Ways.
The use of encyclicals, commentaries, homilies, and all instructions main purpose is to foster a desire to receive Grace to desire God’s Ways.
I’m not getting into a pick this or that part of an encyclical.
I believe Jesus The Christ, not someone’s interpretation of part of a writing on Church Teaching. I accept Church Teaching Holistically.
I’m sorry the sentence structure of the particular post regarding these things,
whereby one referenced the cleansing of The Temple, and they would not reply when asked if John The Baptist was representing Heaven; or representing mere human teaching. But what I wrote point by point and holistically makes sense.
A prayerful heartfelt well wishes for a happy Advent, the rejoicing set apart time, to anticipate Jesus Christ coming; and as always make straight the way of The Lord; and help children and adults desire to learn the way of The Lord. Peace.
Peace.

 

[Crocus]

I’m not getting into this or that statement and any long discussions in particular points. …

I’m not getting into a pick this or that part of an encyclical.
I believe Jesus The Christ, not someone’s interpretation of part of a writing on Church Teaching. I accept Church Teaching Holistically. …

regarding these things,
whereby one referenced the cleansing of The Temple, and they would not reply when asked if John The Baptist was representing Heaven; or representing mere human teaching. But what I wrote point by point and holistically makes sense. …

John The Baptist, nor Our Lord Jesus Christ ever taught social justice at the expense of not promoting at atmosphere for desiring objective moral virtue (unless someone takes Scripture out of context for their ‘position’.

Jesus cleansed the temple because the money changers were taking advantage of the poor who were required to purchase animals for the sacrifice to give to the priests to atone for their sins. Then the money changers took the sacrificial animals around back then to the front of the temple again, to be resold, to increase their financial gain.

Why do we receive the papal encyclicals if not to read and understand them, in whole? Rerum Novarum clearly states an imperative to give the worker his due share of the work of his hands, in respect of rights and responsibilities and human dignity.

Successive encyclicals repeat the morality of this concept, over and over, citing the range of scripture. That tells me that Christ, through the teaching of the Church, desires our attention, and our assent.

This thread asks whether Catholics assent or dissent from this teaching.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Prayerful heartfelt well wishes for joyful self giving harmony
with Godly compassion for others; impartially known To God objectively.
Each of us needs this Christlike understanding to open our eyes
to self giving understanding to the depths of our being, with every fiber
of our being.
The Teachings of The Church I accept. Private interpretations I do not necessarily accept.
Applications of Holy Scriptural (Word of God Written) in Teachings;
for Application must agree with Jesus Christs Words.
Tax money used to mandate emotionally luring immorality; or mandate
right of conscience against Church Teaching, or put limits on free speech,
which defends children with objective moral values learning to try to understand objective morality; is tax money spent to teach against the Kingdom of God.
~
This luring atmosphere contributes to delinquency of minors.
This is not social (the domestic Church is part of ‘social’) justice.
The duress caused by this enmity with God atmosphere, damaging
the charitable bonds of relationships, cries to heaven for vindication.
~
Blessing this advent.

 

[o_mlly]

Yours was the claim that vast amounts of capital were being collected. I do not think the source you cited supported that.

No. The point I made refutes the poster’s claim that the church which underpays staff results from a lack of contributions by parishioners.

Any surplus indicates the funds are available but not allocated.

It is the parishes, not the Church, that pays the wages. Instances were mentioned. It was also stated that the parishes should be paying a decent wage and that is their responsibility to look at, if they are not. I don’t see any disagreement there.

No. The diocese sets salaries and provides benefits for all employees in conformance with the rules set out in the financial guidelines of the USCCB.

 

[Crocus]

No. The diocese sets salaries and provides benefits for all employees in conformance with the rules set out in the financial guidelines of the USCCB.

All good then. Thanks.

 

[Crocus]

The Teachings of The Church I accept. Private interpretations I do not necessarily accept.
Applications of Holy Scriptural (Word of God Written) in Teachings;
for Application must agree with Jesus Christs Words.

This is what the Church asks of us, to hear, see, and do. Peace to you, and to all people of good will this Advent and Christmas season.

 

[EndTimes]

In your experience, are Catholics aware of Catholic Social Teaching? If they know of it, why would they not agree with it?

there seems to be differing forms: Acceptable and UnAcceptable …
such as - according to some - those which become infused with Marxism…

 

[Crocus]

there seems to be differing forms: Acceptable and UnAcceptable …
such as - according to some - those which become infused with Marxism…

Whaat! Catholic teaching, infused with :crazy_face: Marxism? Jesus’ teaching was radical, but never political. But I see your point that some teaching is judged unacceptable, according to some. Often, political arguments are made, that can distract from the moral ones contained in the teaching.

 

[EndTimes]

Whaat! Catholic teaching, infused with :crazy_face: Marxism? Jesus’ teaching was radical, but never political.

I’m not speaking of Jesus…

I’m speaking of False Theologians who’ve incorporated and peddle Marxism into “Liberation Theology”
under a false guise of their being compatible with Church Social Teachings,
… They are not compatible …

Are you unaware of them?

 

[Crocus]

Pretty sure JPII chastised them, so we are called to follow the encyclicals with care. This thread is about following the truth of the encyclicals on social justice, aside from making charges against some others (a pursuit that only leads to distraction).

 

[EndTimes]

Pretty sure JPII chastised them, so we are called to follow the encyclicals with care. This thread is about following the truth of the encyclicals on social justice, aside from making charges against some others (a pursuit that only leads to distraction).

I understand and appreciate the reasons behind where and why you’re going with that.
I’m fairly versed with some topical Encyclicals…

My only concern/caveat is that TODAY
it appears that those ‘chastised’ - are more actively than ever,
ignoring Church Teachings - which was why I’d brought them up.

Peace In JESUS

 

[Crocus]

My only concern/caveat is that TODAY
it appears that those ‘chastised’ - are more actively than ever,
ignoring Church Teachings - which was why I’d brought them up.

Where today you see some ignoring social justice teachings, would you describe the moral concept, as given in the encyclicals, that they (or more personally, we ourselves) should instead be following? This would give a more positive directive on how we should act.

 

[EndTimes]

Where today you see some ignoring social justice teachings, would you describe the moral concept, as given in the encyclicals, that they (or more personally, we ourselves) should instead be following? This would give a more positive directive on how we should act.

I understand and respect where you’re going with that…

1000’s of times I’ve directly posted and lent additional understanding to:
Sacred Scriptures and Church Magisterium - for that very purpose

Where we differ perhaps - lies in what we may deem as being most important / appropriate for this current TIME - at least as that would reflect upon our individual call it missions … which could include both directions - or even more

As for me… Now… It’s time to protect people - Catholics and More -
from the Prophecied Gross Loss of Faith Itself!

It’s been happening Big Time and it’s not about to Stop… Not according to Church Teachings.

It’s growing.

Are we following or am I sounding like a crank?

_

 

[Crocus]

As for me… Now… It’s time to protect people - Catholics and More -
from the Prophecied Gross Loss of Faith Itself!

It’s been happening Big Time and it’s not about to Stop… Not according to Church Teachings.

It’s growing.

I agree 100%. We are in crisis times. We have slept far too long. We need to quit fiddling in secular pursuits, read and absorb all the teachings of the Church, and be ready with an answer for struggling faithful and challengers alike.

 

[HarryStotle]

You do know, don’t you, that the worthy goals are taken from papal encyclicals of the Church?

It is not socialism or humanism, it is social justice the Church asks for: to give the worker his due share of the common goods of the earth. This is what this thread discussion is concerned with.

Would giving to the worker “his due share” imply without any reference to having earned that share?

You say “due share” as if what is due is assumed. Do you mean “due” as a function of his mere existence as a human being without any reference to having done something to earn that share?

What “social justice” implies is primarily justice. That would mean “due share” has more to do with what is earned being what is due, and what is not earned is not to be assumed to be due.

Paul seems quite clear regarding what is due to those who work and those who do not.

Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, and we did not eat anyone’s bread without paying for it; but with toil and labor we worked night and day, so that we might not burden any of you. This was not because we do not have that right, but in order to give you an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: Anyone unwilling to work should not eat. For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. Brothers and sisters, do not be weary in doing what is right. (2 Thessalonians 3:6-13)

 

[pnewton]

I’m speaking of False Theologians who’ve incorporated and peddle Marxism into “Liberation Theology”

Those are too different ideas. Marxism has been condemned by the Catholic Church. However, in the rhetoric of conservative pundits today, Marxism, communism, and socialism do not mean what it means when the Church has addressed these issues. So, before you declare some theologians as false, make sure you use terms as they should be defined.

Liberation theology has its own issues with orthodox doctrine, but it is not the same issue Marxism has.