Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican

[Crocus]

Where is the discussion of what is involved in creating the wealth in the first place?

The Pope started it with The Rights and Duties of Capital and Labor

“Each needs the other: capital cannot do without labor, nor labor without capital. Mutual agreement results in the beauty of good order, while perpetual conflict necessarily produces confusion and savage barbarity.”

I do not accept the implication that because someone has gotten rich he did it at the expense of someone else.

Of course he did, no one can create wealth on his own, in a vacuum.

The best we can do is create conditions such that individuals can use their ingenuity and drive to create more wealth, coupled with social programs to assist those who cannot.

Now you’re talking like the Pope!
The State has a responsibility to create conditions conducive to justice; the better it does that, the less need there will be for social programs. (paraphrased)

unemployment at all time lows

Not relevant to the social justice issue of meaningful work and just wages. Instead you cite unemployment as a social program: meaning payments made, rather than recognize the people whose benefits ran out, and have not found new employment. The people of concern are those who want to work but cannot find work.

What is the argument that it is unjust for one person to create more wealth than another?

No one has made such a claim.

 

[EndTimes]

Those are too different ideas. Marxism has been condemned by the Catholic Church. However, in the rhetoric of conservative pundits today, Marxism, communism, and socialism do not mean what it means when the Church has addressed these issues. So, before you declare some theologians as false, make sure you use terms as they should be defined.

Liberation theology has its own issues with orthodox doctrine, but it is not the same issue Marxism has.

Conservative - you mean in Full Communion with Catholic Teachings - Catholics?

They’re orthodox, obedient…

_

 

[Ender]

The Pope started it with The Rights and Duties of Capital and Labor

No, there is nothing there that addresses how wealth is created.

Of course he did, no one can create wealth on his own, in a vacuum.

You’re saying that one person gets wealthy at the expense of others? Really? That’s what you think? If wealth is actually created then how does that created wealth come at the expense of someone else?

The State has a responsibility to create conditions conducive to justice; the better it does that, the less need there will be for social programs.
No one has ever argued this point. What has been argued is the suggesting that disagreeing with the social plans of SJW’s is somehow to dissent from church teaching.

Not relevant to the social justice issue of meaningful work and just wages.

The perennial complaint: not every problem has been solved so the world is unjust.

No one has made such a claim.

Then at what point is it unjust for one person to have more wealth than another? 10x? 100x? 1Mx? Why?

 

[Crocus]

What is the argument that it is unjust for one person to create more wealth than another?

Then at what point is it unjust for one person to have more wealth than another?

No one has made either claim. The encyclicals acknowledge and approve of differences. The encyclicals agree with you on this. Why do you seem to be provoking argument?

No one has ever argued this point. What has been argued is the suggesting that disagreeing with the social plans of SJW’s is somehow to dissent from church teaching.

I was agreeing with you when you said:
“The best we can do is create conditions such that individuals can use their ingenuity and drive to create more wealth, coupled with social programs to assist those who cannot.”

I am looking for common ground, agreement. Even when we agree, you seem to want to argue.

And that’s 3 times now, you revert to name calling.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

The dignity of the human being or person is extremely important
and promoting an atmosphere of clarity in this is part of social justice.
~
It is unjust, therefore not the social justice of The Holy Bible,
nor Church Teaching; to help those who promote a sinful life is ok;
along side social programs.
The gradual process over the decades to water this down
in pastoral care obscures this.
Giving power to those who convey this to our children, creates
an atmosphere of ‘acceptability’ of child killing by abortion because
helpless children are inconvenient to living conditions.
~
Just because many great and small have fallen into this
false Gospel, doesn’t mean to do it one’s self.
The Gospel brings social justice that helps create an atmosphere
where we each, and families solve problems creating inner turmoil,
because of resisting Grace. And they convey this is acceptable
to others.
Social justice is not legalized child killing along side material goods and service sharing. Nor legalized teaching children against moral virtue.
It is decidedly not justice. It is injustice that cries to Heaven for vindication.
And doing this specifically in the Name of Jesus Christ, distorts
The Good News, it promotes an atmosphere of acceptability that
The Good News focuses on material justice - which is contrary to The Good News. This is an accursed thing to do.
The Lord Jesus Christ, nor Church Teaching ever taught to do this.
~
Woe to us, as we each will be held accountable.
Peace.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

If income was in fact “ distributed ” then inequality probably would be unjust, but in those cases

Doesn’t the enactment of private safety nets warrant some form of redistribution though?

 

[o_mlly]

Would you say that all the 80% who share in 7% of the wealth enjoy access to decent work, decent pay, decent benefits in accord with the social justice encyclicals? Are you satisfied that our (society’s) work is done in that regard?

In the City of Man, nothing can be perfect. In the United States, we are materially the envy of all the other Cities of Men.

America gives a better life to the ordinary guy than does any other country. Let’s be honest: rich people live well everywhere. America’s greatness is that it has extended the benefits of affluence, traditionally available to the very few, to a large segment in society. We live in a nation where “poor” people have TV sets and microwave ovens, where construction workers cheerfully spend $4 on a nonfat latte, where maids drive very nice cars, where plumbers take their families on vacation to the Caribbean. Recently I asked an acquaintance in Bombay why he has been trying so hard to relocate to America. He replied, “I really want to move to a country where the poor people are fat.”

~Dinesh D’Souza, in his column “What’s So Great About America?”

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Shouldn’t we ask, what does someone’s or group platform’s policy sell or teach?
~
.God’s Goodness from the Treasury of the Vaults of Heaven.
One of The Grace Keys, is how to use one’s stewardship of anything;
earthly goods or earthly services.
Inner Godly Peace, Joy, deep-felt harmony & well being with God, flow from The Treasury of Heaven, the more stewardship is used to Witness The Kingdom of God.
no one can steal the ‘Golden Coins’ from the Treasury of Heaven; neither can these coins rust or be devoured by anything worldly.
~
And we know, whatsoever we do for one of the needy among us, we do unto Jesus Christ Himself. Since unearned suffering is redemptive; selling or teaching ‘goods and services’ for earthly needs - apart from ‘Golden Coins’ from Heaven is cursed. It brings about more unearned suffering, depriving vision for ‘Golden Coins’ from Heaven. The more someone does that[selling or teaching apart from Golden Coins from Heaven], the more ‘the cross’ effects others. Therefore, a similar atmosphere that led to the Crucifixion of our Savior Jesus Christ grows.
~
Don’t we need to protect The Sacredness of Human life, which includes protection of helpless little children? Fostering justifications of legalized child murder, fosters lack of vision to desire ‘Golden Coins’ by Grace from Heaven.
~
"And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ - Matthew 25:40
~
"Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:45-46

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Shouldn’t we be asking ourselves, is my witness fostering a conscience desire for ‘Golden Coins’ which come from Heaven? What am I doing for those who are ‘least’ because of lack of an informed conscience?
Woe to those ‘selling’ social justice goods and services, while ‘selling’ an atmosphere of a culture of death.
Blessings to those who ‘sell’ (teach or promote and atmosphere) that there heart is seeking after The Kingdom of God, and we know seeking the Kingdom of God is a good thing.
~
Is my holistic witness of social justice Christlike, or in opposition to The Lord Jesus Christ’s Teaching? Who should I listen to from the sea of people, in the venues of society, Church, Education, Media, communication venues to form proper decisions for consenting powers that be promote Christlike holistic justice? When I promote social justice which holistically justifying less Kingdom of God values, then is promote a ‘spirit’ or ‘atmosphere’ in opposition to The Kingdom of God and The Living Values(Gold) which Jesus Christ Graces us to receive. True social justice comes from The Treasury of Heaven, no where else.

---

Prayerful deep well wishes for God’s Peace & Joy, which surpasses all human understanding grow within each of us. Have a wonderful day, with sharing bonds of family love!

 

[JimG]

Speaking of creating wealth, there is this:

https://fee.org/articles/what-9-of-the-10-richest-people-in-the-world-have-in-common/

 

[Ender]

The encyclicals acknowledge and approve of differences. The encyclicals agree with you on this. Why do you seem to be provoking argument?

I responded because of your earlier comments regarding justice:

The symptoms of injustice are seen everywhere among the poor, the working poor, the mentally ill, the incarcerated.

Here is just one measure:

For the measure of injustice you presented a chart of wealth inequality, so it seemed reasonable to assume you took the fact of unequal wealth as unjust.

 

[EndTimes]

True social justice comes from The Treasury of Heaven, no where else.

Do I take it then - that False social justice - which exists - comes from Satan?

 

[pnewton]

Conservative - you mean in Full Communion with Catholic Teachings - Catholics?

No, I mean what I said - conservative pundits. They are the ones who have changed the meaning of those words.

Conservatives and progressives alike might be orthodox, obedient, etc., if you understand politics is not a determiner of Catholicism.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Therefore what is witness to children and impressionable regarding
Kingdom of God social justice as compared to false social justice;
is paramount.
Prayerful heartfelt warmth from God deep will wishes for Christ Jesus’
Peace (complete well being with God) - Shalom be with you and yours.
Truly wishing wonderful family, friends, neighbor heartfelt caring relationships
in your life; as close to perfect prudence in The Reputation of Jesus The Christ;
and The Kingdom of God & The Treasury of Heavens Gold for self giving;
in every way, objective virtue, and healing of every person, family, and venue.
True sharing.
Good evening, night, morning, day as the case may be; wished with hope
from the depths of my heart.

 

[EndTimes]

No, I mean what I said - conservative pundits.

Since Conservative Cathoilcs represent Obedience,
methinks that’s clearly the POV of the Heterodox Liberals …

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Since Conservative Cathoilcs represent Obedience,…

That claim is a matter of debate. Sometimes it is the liberal Catholics that represent Obedience.

 

[HarryStotle]

Those are too different ideas. Marxism has been condemned by the Catholic Church. However, in the rhetoric of conservative pundits today, Marxism, communism, and socialism do not mean what it means when the Church has addressed these issues. So, before you declare some theologians as false, make sure you use terms as they should be defined.

I suppose your fly-by statement that “conservative pundits” do not understand what Marxism, communism and socialism means relative to Church teaching, is itself, an example of rhetoric.

That is likely why discussions such as these lead nowhere. We appear to be content to speak in vague generalities and castigate anyone who deigns to question anything of the broadly liberal narrative of what currently is shoehorned into the umbrella term “social justice.”

The details don’t appear very important and no one seems too concerned about discussing where, precisely, the “conservative pundits” differ in their understanding from how the Church defines the terms.

Everyone wants to voice an opinion but no one wants to actually do the difficult work of making distinctions and clarifying concepts.

Isn’t that precisely the essence of rhetoric, saying something without actually saying something.

 

[EndTimes]

Sometimes it is the liberal Catholics that represent Obedience.

The liberal I intend to present directly connects with Condemned Liberalism. .

By necessity, that sort of Liberal can at best,
be a mixture containing an entrenched Unacceptable-to-God spirit…

 

[EndTimes]

…the bottom 10% of the U.S. income distribution falls in the upper 30% of the global income distribution.

I wonder if it is considered unjust for the poor in our country to be better off than 70% of the rest of the world?

Interesting point.

Once upon a time I saw/heard a homeless man being interviewed by a reporter who was seeking the sob story angle back when not just a few Ethiopians during famine and warring were so full of Hunger that they were but skin and bones who could not even walk any more and were very soon to die – and he - obviously well fed laughed at the reporte noting how compared w/them - he was living as a king.

I often wonder if . When all the bla-bla-ing over disconnected almost abstract realities for most - such as “Social Teaching” itself - does that count re: our journey toward Salvation? Endless Talking the Talk?
_

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Sometimes it is the liberal Catholics that represent Obedience.

The liberal I intend to present directly connects with Condemned Liberalism. .

By necessity, that sort of Liberal can at best,
be a mixture containing an entrenched Unacceptable-to-God spirit…

In that case, what would have is firstly an entrenched unacceptabe-to-God spirit, who just coincidently happened to be a liberal, and might just as well have been a conservative. Not all conservatives will be acceptable to God.

 

[pnewton]

I suppose your fly-by statement that “conservative pundits” do not understand what Marxism, communism and socialism means relative to Church teaching, is itself, an example of rhetoric.

If this is not an issue, why did the subject of socialism, Marxism, or communism even come up in a discussion of Catholic social teaching? Do you have an answer? Since no part of Catholic social teaching has, or ever has, included these beliefs, I submit that the mere presence of these being included is prima facie proof that there is, at least, some ignorance as to the meaning of these terms.

Yes, terms must be defined, especially when they are misused out of ignorance. Do I not have a right to defend the Church, and especially the pope, against charges of socialism by those ignorant of what the word actually means? Surely you must know that this word has been used as some weird but false equivalent. for social justice that favors the poor over the wealthy.