Dissent From Catholic Social Teaching: A Study In Irony - Inside The Vatican

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Twiddle Dee/ twiddle dum. Doesn’t really matter the name
Names are everything. The mere fact that government subsidies have been redefined as corporate welfare is a form of propaganda. If the name does not matter, then why did the term “corporate welfare” even become used for something that already had an accurate name?
 
It is the Church’s opinion that everyone should be paid a just wage.
This is true and completely non-controversial. No one disputes this.
A just wage would therefore be a living wage…
This is your opinion. It is nowhere stated by the church and is in fact what the debate is mostly about. Asserting that it is true without an argument to support the claim is unhelpful.
We all pay a special Walmart Tax.
This is nonsense. People who work at Walmart are their employees, not their wards. Walmart has an obligation to pay them a just compensation for their labor, but they have no responsibility at all to ensure all their financial needs are met.

Does anyone even think about this? The headline in the article is that taxpayers are subsidizing Walmart and McDonald’s employees to the tune of $153B a year. I didn’t read the article because I considered the headline moronic, but I’ll bet it didn’t point out that Walmart’s net profit is about $10B/yr. Just what do they expect the company to do to make up the difference? Print their own money?
 
Ok, fair point. I use the term corporate welfare because they are truly government handouts. So I see the name as quite appropriate. But, since I do find welfare targeted at individuals as not nearly as noxious (in most circumstances), perhaps I do need to start using a name that has a more negative connotation. Fascist economic control? Maybe, let me think on it.
 
If the name does not matter, then why did the term “corporate welfare” even become used for something that already had an accurate name?
Then let’s even the playing field. Why not refer to social welfare programs as subsidies for the poor instead of “hand-outs?”
This is your opinion.
No, it is a fact. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...peace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
Work is “a foundation for the formation of family life, which is a natural right and something that man is called to” .[633] It ensures a means of subsistence and serves as a guarantee for raising children.[634] Family and work, so closely interdependent in the experience of the vast majority of people, deserve finally to be considered in a more realistic light, with an attention that seeks to understand them together, without the limits of a strictly private conception of the family or a strictly economic view of work.
And: http://www.vatican.va/content/john-...s/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html
In a way, work is a condition for making it possible to found a family, since the family requires the means of subsistence which man normally gains through work.
If there’s no living wage, there’s no viable means of subsistence. As summarized eloquently in a link I posted upthread, where these needs can be met through living wage, public programs may step in and supplement them.

So which should it be? Living wage? Social programs? Combination? Something else? You avoided this question upthread by citing alleged irrelevance. It’s now relevant.
I don’t think a just wage is necessarily a living wage (by which seems to be meant a wage sufficient to support a family) and neither does the Church.
See my references above.
I don’t think it is corporate welfare to subsidize the wages of employees who are in entry level positions or slightly above. The point of those positions is to be a starting point, not to be careers in themselves.
It depends. Many of them are called dead-end jobs for a valid reason. People who for whatever reason can’t attain a higher education or different job, (rural communities can have this problem), do need a way to feed the family and keep the lights on. That way has to come through social programs or a living wage. Or a combination.
 
It’s intellectually lazy to copy/paste a URL on general issue rather than to defend your specific claim that Walmart clerks are paid an unfair wage.
The link you never read demonstrates through adequate citations that the Church demands wages of subsistence. This is not my opinion.

After seeing you out-of-hand dismissing two sources with the ad hominem fallacy without providing any constructive criticism and demonstrating that you never read a posted link, (you assumed it referenced Rerum Novarum when it actually shows completely different Church documents), I’m finding it hard to digest any ironic accusations of intellectual laziness. I post links to discuss the ideas and references/citations that they contain, but that only works when people actually read them. This is not the dialogue I was hoping for. I’ll be muting this thread for a while for my own sanity.
 
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This is not the dialogue I was hoping for. I’ll be muting this thread for a while for my own sanity.
That’s a long and round about post to say simply that you cannot support your claim that Walmart does not pay just wages to the clerks.
 
If your assertion is in fact factual you should have no problem pointing to the specific passage in that document that says it rather than referencing a passage that includes your interpretation.
Work is “a foundation for the formation of family life, which is a natural right and something that man is called to” .[633] It ensures a means of subsistence and serves as a guarantee for raising children.
That the formation of a family is a natural right, and that work is its foundation, says nothing whatever about how individuals are to be compensated for their work.
If there’s no living wage, there’s no viable means of subsistence. As summarized eloquently in a link I posted upthread, where these needs can be met through living wage, public programs may step in and supplement them.
I think you meant “where these needs cannot be met…”, but saying that refutes your claim that “if there’s no living wage, there’s no viable means of subsistence.” That is precisely what public programs are meant to do, so why should the burden of providing for the poor be placed on the companies that hire most of them, that is, the ones with the most minimum wage workers? IBM, GM, and GE don’t have minimum wage workers, why should they be exempt from providing for the poor? What is the argument that we should impose that burden solely on companies like Walmart and McDonalds?

Requiring a “living wage” would make it literally impossible for the companies who hire low wage scale workers to even exist. Yeah, that sounds like a great way to help the poor: eliminate the companies that hire them.
 
We just disagree with how the government implements social justice.
We agree that the government has a role to play in achieving social justice. You have made some comments that reflect government’s overall report card. If you were to assign a grade (ABCDF), how successful do you think they been since Rerum Novarum of 1891?

The OP does not intend to bash anyone. It is about Catholics’ awareness of and/or dissension from Church teaching on social justice.
 
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Yeah, that sounds like a great way to help the poor: eliminate the companies that hire them.
According to St. JPII, that [unemployment] is the greater evil. To wit:
The role of the agents included under the title of indirect employer is to act against unemployment, which in all cases is an evil, and which, when it reaches a certain level, can become a real social disaster. … In order to meet the danger of unemployment and to ensure employment for all, the agents defined here as “indirect employer” must make provision for overall planning … In the final analysis this overall concern weighs on the shoulders of the State, but it cannot mean one sided centralization by the public authorities (IOANNES PAULUS PP. II LABOREM EXERCENS).
 
People have no idea how much R&D is spent in an industry or a specific business. If the margin on Beats was $10 on a $30 investment, you may not have ever had Beats.

As a business owner who employees people in a service based industry (defense), I have often told my wife our profit = our revenue - (cost of hiring/recruiting + advertising + wages/benefits + all the unquantifiable work and headaches and sleepless nights that I have to deal with). The last number being the largest much of the time.

Price gouging is real, but it is far too simplistic to think we have any insight into the true cost of these things.
 
The role of the agents included under the title of indirect employer is to act against unemployment, which in all cases is an evil, and which, when it reaches a certain level, can become a real social disaster. … In order to meet the danger of unemployment and to ensure employment for all, the agents defined here as “indirect employer” must make provision for overall planning … In the final analysis this overall concern weighs on the shoulders of the State, but it cannot mean one sided centralization by the public authorities (IOANNES PAULUS PP. II LABOREM EXERCENS).
Excellent quote from the 1981 encyclical. The State must take its responsibility (in this quote referring to the evil of unemployment) to promote social justice for the worker.
 
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I prefer effective or ineffective. Some might be needed, others not. In my own opinion, oil depletion allowances artificially keep oil, and gasoline, low, decreasing the incentive to switch to more fuel efficient vehicles. It is a bad environmental policy. Even if this was needed, it would be more environmentally friendly to use money from tax collected on vehicles based on their fuel economy to pay for it, thus maintaining the incentive to buy no more vehicle than one needs.
 
Can’t disagree with any of that. I suppose the wind subsidies have been effective. But they are still a policy that I would prefer not to have. And then there is ethanol, one if the stupidest, 8diotic, dumb government policies ever. My relatives in Iowa don’t necessarily agree with me 🙂
 
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I don’t think it is corporate welfare to subsidize the wages of employees who are in entry level positions or slightly above
Just to clear up any misunderstanding due to definitions: Corporate welfare is often used to describe a government’s bestowal of money grants, tax breaks, or other special favorable treatment for corporations .
 
Yeah… except for the fact that poor people are more likely to need their cars to travel to work, and less likely to be able to afford to acquire and run an alternative-fuel car.

This, increasing the proce of gas would disproportionately hurt the poor.
 
I guess Catholics are obligated to vote for candidates who have brought unemployment levels to a historic low (not to mention any names)…
🤣
 
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That’s as may be, but BlackForest, to whom I was responding, thinks corporate welfare includes “subsidizing” the low wages their employees make.
 
That Article is really well done.
The short unofficial survey of large segments of Catholic America seem to view CATHOLIC MORAL THEOLOGY ON SOCIAL JUSTICE as they do with ," love your enemies." AT the most basic and truthful place within, the thought is," was he serious about that?"
The artical reminded me that somewhere 40-50 years ago GEORGE WILL identified what the American Conservative movement was right in the heart of it’s reemergence.
He said," Conservatism is defined by it’s opposition to the new deal."
And the piece brilliantly identifies the ins and out of that opposition bouncing between Rome and America.
Unfortunately, the forces that oppose Catholic Social policy have become proficient in Killing it off. But it was nice to have taken in the cameo.
 
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That’s as may be, but BlackForest, to whom I was responding, thinks corporate welfare includes “subsidizing” the low wages their employees make.
I stand corrected. I agree with @blackforest that low wages are a direct benefit to corporations.
or other special favorable treatment for corporations .
Which includes low wages. Also includes ability to strip assets, go bankrupt, disappear pensions, short final wage payouts; meanwhile pay bonus to management as did Sears.
 
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