Dissenters: Why do you call yourself a Catholic?

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it didn’t take long for this conversation to get completely derailed and out of control.
Didn’t it start there? Look at the subject line.

Do we not all fail God in some way? Have you every been at a Mass when, in response to being invited to call to mind our unworthiness someone piped up, ‘Actually, I’m good…’?

As NewUlm noted, this is human nature. Certainly, the Lord knew this, why else would the Gospels warn us of the dangers of such thinking?

We should be rejoicing in what we share in the Body of the Faithful. But it is in our nature to judge others, a judgement that almost always concludes that we, ourselves, are morally superior!

One could turn the original question around, why have those who question the legitimate Catholicism of others forsaken our call to humbly follow God? But in judging others to be the Pharisee, we, ourselves, become pharisee like. The point remains for us to emulate the Publican.
 
Didn’t it start there? Look at the subject line.

Do we not all fail God in some way? Have you every been at a Mass when, in response to being invited to call to mind our unworthiness someone piped up, ‘Actually, I’m good…’?

As NewUlm noted, this is human nature. Certainly, the Lord knew this, why else would the Gospels warn us of the dangers of such thinking?

We should be rejoicing in what we share in the Body of the Faithful. But it is in our nature to judge others, a judgement that almost always concludes that we, ourselves, are morally superior!

One could turn the original question around, why have those who question the legitimate Catholicism of others forsaken our call to humbly follow God? But in judging others to be the Pharisee, we, ourselves, become pharisee like. The point remains for us to emulate the Publican.
It’s one thing to fail, it’s another to intentionally fail.
 
It’s one thing to fail, it’s another to intentionally fail.
Most of the dissent we see is about one or more of the following:

contraception
abortion
homosexuality
female ordination

In all of these its a desire by the “dissenters” to force the “norms” of Todays secular society on the teachings of the Church. Not only wont the Church change on these issues-it cant.
 
It’s one thing to fail, it’s another to intentionally fail.
Wouldn’t questioning the legitimacy of the faith of others still be an intentional failure?

Look at the Catechism:
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
<<Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved>>" - CCC 2478, quoting St. Ignatius of Loyola
Consider even infallible teachings. Estesbob has frequently identified abortion as a critical issue. He has even identified it as a litmus test for determining who is, and who is not, (in his words) a “real” Catholic. But, with regards to voting, he endorses an application of “proportionate reasons”. That is, he argues that even abortion must be compromised on in political life.

Personally, I disagree with this thinking. I am prone to agree with Rome:
“When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person. This is the case with laws concerning…”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

Abortion is the first of nine examples listed. If I compromise on these principles, even for laudable goals, then I would see myself as undermining them. Attacking the Faith and the “essence of the moral law”.

But being more rigid in my application of Church teaching does not entitle me to question Estesbob’s intent and motives. I can belief that his actions are counter productive, just as I believe that Catholics who disagree on teachings like contraception and the death penalty are propogating a culture of death. But I cannot look into his heart or hear the exact call of his moral conscience. So I cannot judge his Christianity.
 
Jesus never said those things and the Church doesn’t either.
Which is exactly my point. Yet, there are many folks who believe that not only does the Church condone such discrimination, but they also believe they have a moral imperative to do so . See the thread on the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA).
 
Which is exactly my point. Yet, there are many folks who believe that not only does the Church condone such discrimination, …
What discrimination specificly?
Just curious. Bold accusations, but imprecise to such a degree that it is meaningless banter.

Please clarify yourself.
 
The Church nor Jesus himself never said it is wrong to discriminate, we are told not to judge.

I am perfectly fine with discriminating, I choose not to associate with people who are deliberate and unrepentant in their immoral choices. However, at the same time I do not chastise them, harass them or do anything hurtful towards them.

There is also nothing wrong with defending the Church’s teachings on these matters so long as it is not contrary to charity.

Remember, Jesus did associate with adulterers, tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. But also it is important to note that they were all repentant sinners who had given up (or who were committed to giving up) those sinful things to follow Christ.

Jesus discriminated against unrepentant sinners and there is nothing wrong with any members of his Church doing the same.

But this must be done with charity and it is something I struggle with as well, being uncharitable and carried away with emotions on these issues.

We have to remember to speak regarding the issue and not make it personal or to directly call out individuals or certain groups whether it be liberals, traditionalists etc.
 
The so-called non-dissenters are simply dissenters of a different kind. They dissent that LT is condemned when it is clearly not. They dissent that one is obliged to follow Church teaching at all costs AS THEY INTERPRET IT, yet ignore actual black and white statements of both the CCC and both recent popes that one’s own conscience is in the end controlling. They dissent on the death penalty even though both the CCC and one pope says there are virtually no modern circumstances justifying it. They dissent in support a war in Iraq when the clear import of the statements made by the Vatican make it clear they believe Iraq is not justified. They dissent by still claiming creationism and YEC when it is clear the Vatican has accepted that evolution is the methodology used by God to further evolution over time. And worst of all, they use church teachings on any number of issues as a mask to their own forms of prejudice and bigotry. In the name of “witnessing” they regularly refer to others as lazy, sinful, disordered, and any number of things, none of which expresses an ounce of Christian charity. From this it becomes clear that they are simply hiding behind the Church as they express their deepseeded resentments and anger at people they consider Other. Worse they dissent into fundamentalism and sound more like baptists than Catholics.

In the end, it’s simply one’s perspective as to who is the true dissenter.
 
it didn’t take long for this conversation to get completely derailed and out of control. on the other hand, it does seem to do a very good job of displaying what many of us have to live with every day in our parishes: two groups who are frustrated with one and another and don’t talk or play well together. And it is precisely this that is the most unpleasant part of being Catholic.

And I am not sure which is worse, having a situation where both groups are in the parish throwing uncharitable accusations back and forth at one another, or having the Church divided into sectarian-factions where the supposedly faithful pick and choose a parish they like just like any Protestant does, going off to find an FSSP parish or an Eastern Rite parish or whatever, while the supposed liberals seek out comfortable, modern, etc. parishes. In both cases any sense of local community and the “parish” system are destroyed and ‘scandal’ is caused on all sides.
You see this is what I don’t see. Over the years I’ve been in 4 different parishes in 3 states. In not one was there any fight between sides as you claim. This forum is an anomolous situation not encountered by hardly any Catholics I have met “outside”. The ultra right is a small minority, and I haven’t a clue where your parishes are, but I sure don’t find this kind in mine. My parishes have all been strong on Christian charity, something I find very lacking here.
 
. They dissent on the death penalty even though both the CCC and one pope says there are virtually no modern circumstances justifying it. They dissent in support a war in Iraq when the clear import of the statements made by the Vatican make it clear they believe Iraq is not justified. r.
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

War and Capital Punishment-Can We Agree to Disagree?

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp
 
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

War and Capital Punishment-Can We Agree to Disagree?

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp
You are splitting a might fine hair. Time and again I’m confronted with self-righteous Catholics who tell me that they essentially have no opinion until they have checked to see what the Vatican has to say, or more particularly the Magisterium. So I don’t buy the “not on the same footing” argument. There is a culture of life or a culture of death. I doubt seriously whether you or any of the pro death penalty/pro war people have any desire to stand before the Pope and make your explanations. I think you know you can still get away with this even though it violates the spirit of what the Vatican states and believes. And frankly as to many of the other issues I raised, I see way too much glee in making graphically unkind references to those you consider sinful. I as you might guess also don’t buy the protestations of loving the sinner and hating the sin. The way they treat the people involved suggests otherwise. Again please understand that I do not use the word “YOU” meaning yourself particularly or even necessarily. I refer to you as all those who stand in opposition to what I state.
 
You are splitting a might fine hair. Time and again I’m confronted with self-righteous Catholics who tell me that they essentially have no opinion until they have checked to see what the Vatican has to say, or more particularly the Magisterium. So I don’t buy the “not on the same footing” argument. There is a culture of life or a culture of death. I doubt seriously whether you or any of the pro death penalty/pro war people have any desire to stand before the Pope and make your explanations. I think you know you can still get away with this even though it violates the spirit of what the Vatican states and believes. And frankly as to many of the other issues I raised, I see way too much glee in making graphically unkind references to those you consider sinful. I as you might guess also don’t buy the protestations of loving the sinner and hating the sin. The way they treat the people involved suggests otherwise. Again please understand that I do not use the word “YOU” meaning yourself particularly or even necessarily. I refer to you as all those who stand in opposition to what I state.
I quoted the Pope. He said Catholics are free to diagree on war and the death penalty. Therefore it not correct to call it disent.

I personally have protested at many executions BUT I dont presume to tell catholics who support the death penatly that they are in oppostion to the teachings of the Church.

It is not only Protestants who say we should hate sin-it is clear teachings of the Church. .
 
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

War and Capital Punishment-Can We Agree to Disagree?

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp
Notice that the article itself characterizes the quote somewhat differently. It interprets it, as I do, as simply reasoning that disagreement on non theological absolutes does not rise to the level of CIC 915. It does not make the disagreement itself licit, nor, as the article notes, does it negate our obligation to obey, which is spelled out in the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church:
“Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place. For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old, making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.” - LUMEN GENTIUM
The article does make some leaps in theological reasoning. For example, CCC 2309 does delegate final moral determination, but CCC 2267 does not. Further, US juries do not make death penalty determinations on the basis of the criteria spelled out by the Church. But at least it is a reasonably honest interepretation of the Cardinal’s statements and the context for them.

However, having brought up the document and the source, let’s test your own acceptance. Also from the Nota Bene in 2004:
“When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.” -Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Would you agree, or disagree? If the latter, how do you determine what portions of a statement carry weight and which do not?

And, presumably you are arguing that then Cardinal Ratzinger’s words carry special weight because he was latter selected as Pope. In that light, what do you make of the following:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

See #4. This is a Doctrinal Note, prepared by then Cardinal Ratzinger, and approved by Pope John Paul II. It appears to place 9 broad moral principles at the level of ‘non negotiable’ in regards to voting (one of them being abortion).

Would you agree or disagree? If you disagree, why does a letter from a Cardinal to a Bishop on Canon law override a Doctrinal Note approved by a Pope?

One could even argue that there must not be a conflict. As Pope, Benedict has released this:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html

On the subject of the Eucharist. If we look at #83 we can see that he partially reiterates the list, cites the Doctrinal Note, and uses the words “These values are not negotiable.”

Do you agree, or disagree?

I believe that Spiritmeadow has properly identified the problem. To one degree or another, we are all dissenters. But it is human nature to want to move the goal posts and then declare that our own forms of dissent are somehow morally superior.
 
You see this is what I don’t see. Over the years I’ve been in 4 different parishes in 3 states. In not one was there any fight between sides as you claim. This forum is an anomolous situation not encountered by hardly any Catholics I have met “outside”. The ultra right is a small minority, and I haven’t a clue where your parishes are, but I sure don’t find this kind in mine. My parishes have all been strong on Christian charity, something I find very lacking here.
i did not experience it during my time in the midwest. i have experienced it repeatedly in new england…and it depresses the hell out of me.
 
You see this is what I don’t see. Over the years I’ve been in 4 different parishes in 3 states. In not one was there any fight between sides as you claim. This forum is an anomolous situation not encountered by hardly any Catholics I have met “outside”. The ultra right is a small minority, and I haven’t a clue where your parishes are, but I sure don’t find this kind in mine. My parishes have all been strong on Christian charity, something I find very lacking here.
yes there sometimes is a lack of Christian charity on all sides of various issues, but unfortunately you are falling into the same trap with your words here. You are complaining about lack of charity while being uncharitable.
 
yes there sometimes is a lack of Christian charity on all sides, but unfortunately you are falling into the same trap with your words here. You are complaining about lack of charity while being uncharitable.
Thank you.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
 
Post 28 is what happens when liberalism get’s a hold of religion. They dismiss God, for humanism, yet continue to claim to follow His word.

This is what happens when political ideologies enter the Church.

Post 28 **IS STILL **making false accusations, by the way.
 
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

War and Capital Punishment-Can We Agree to Disagree?

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp
It wont matter to her, estesbob. But nice try though.
 
I quoted the Pope. He said Catholics are free to diagree on war and the death penalty. Therefore it not correct to call it disent.

I personally have protested at many executions BUT I dont presume to tell catholics who support the death penatly that they are in oppostion to the teachings of the Church.

It is not only Protestants who say we should hate sin-it is clear teachings of the Church. .
LOL She thought that YOU wrote that!!(the Pope quote) LOL Now you know what she really thinks! LOLOL
 
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