Dissenters: Why do you call yourself a Catholic?

[Aquinas74]

Spiritmeadow. I don’t know why you will not answer my posts. But I thought this would be helpful, this is the Church’s position as found in the Code of Canon Law

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[drpmjhess]

The fact that someone things that gays should have the same right of civil marriage as believers and that women should be ordained is not disobedience in anything other than admitting the truth of one’s heart. That does not necessarily make the dissenter a part to any unlawful behavior vis a vis the Church. How do I violate church law by believing my Church MAY be wrong on the issue of homosexuality? Can I hide my true belief from God? Should I lie as a better alternative?

SpiritMeadow, what is perceived as heresy and what as legitimate dissent may vary by region. I live in a fairly non-conservative part of the country, and in my parish most of the families have two children, welcome the gay and lesbian couples in our community, and are supportive of widening women’s ministerial opportunities. A priest at my parent’s parish even said – when welcoming a new altar girl – “it’s great that you are now serving God in this capacity; perhaps, the Holy Spirit willing, you will be in my place some day.” No one brandishes the word “heresy” with respect to these beliefs, and we get along just fine. Perhaps we are all ultimately destined for hell even for entertaining these beliefs. In the meantime, the liturgies are beautiful, the retreats prayerful, and the pastoral care marvelous.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

SpiritMeadow, in the spirit of Charity I wish to ask you this. Why do you choose which doctrines you want to believe, and discard others that you disagree with? You do know that the Catholic Faith is the one true faith do you not? I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. You cannot simply just pick and choose. We Catholics are obliged to follow the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church.

Actually, and correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think there was ever a discussion of what tenets I or anyone else didn’t agree to or follow insofar as we are required to show our assent. The only issue that I have here disagreed with is I don’t believe personally that Jesus intended to set up a church, and I question whether the Church’;s stance on homosexuality is correct. The first in no way limits my correct practice of Catholicism, and as to the second, I am not in any positon that directly or even indirectly opposes the Church;s stance.

I believe most seriously that Caholicism is the one orignial church that emerged from the work of the apostles including Paul. I leave it to God to determine whether others either Christian or not are within his plan of salvation.

Blindly following is akin to Church worship and cultism in my opinion. I believe the laity is fully led by the HS as well as the Magisterium. I never have set myself above or even equal to such a body with such a history. This does not negate my responsibility as a human being created by God to think, study and speak as I am motivated to. I ask no one to agree with me. Those who are interested in learning more are free to investigate as I did and do. I consider that a firm duty of all spiritual beings.

 

[drpmjhess]

Blindly following is akin to Church worship and cultism in my opinion. I believe the laity is fully led by the HS as well as the Magisterium. I never have set myself above or even equal to such a body with such a history. This does not negate my responsibility as a human being created by God to think, study and speak as I am motivated to. I ask no one to agree with me. Those who are interested in learning more are free to investigate as I did and do. I consider that a firm duty of all spiritual beings.

Beautifully stated!

 

[Aquinas74]

Actually, and correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think there was ever a discussion of what tenets I or anyone else didn’t agree to or follow insofar as we are required to show our assent. The only issue that I have here disagreed with is I don’t believe personally that Jesus intended to set up a church, and I question whether the Church’;s stance on homosexuality is correct. The first in no way limits my correct practice of Catholicism, and as to the second, I am not in any positon that directly or even indirectly opposes the Church;s stance.

I believe most seriously that Caholicism is the one orignial church that emerged from the work of the apostles including Paul. I leave it to God to determine whether others either Christian or not are within his plan of salvation.

Blindly following is akin to Church worship and cultism in my opinion. I believe the laity is fully led by the HS as well as the Magisterium. I never have set myself above or even equal to such a body with such a history. This does not negate my responsibility as a human being created by God to think, study and speak as I am motivated to. I ask no one to agree with me. Those who are interested in learning more are free to investigate as I did and do. I consider that a firm duty of all spiritual beings.

Firstly, I am not sitting in judgment of your mortal soul. That is the responsibility of God. Nor have I said you are not Catholic. Blindly following? Christ is my model as he is to all of us and he was obedient to his Father in Heaven. Therefore if I want to model Christ then I must be obedient to those whom he has placed above me. It is the duty of every Catholic to be faithful to the Church that Christ gave us. You do know who was disobedient do you not? Lucifer who tried to place himself above God. The Homosexuality issue is one that God has been quite clear on since the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It has not changed in all of that time and will not. We should have love and compassion for our brothers and sisters who struggle with Homosexuality. Hate the sin, not the sinner. The Church is the true Church guided by the Vicar of Christ with the aid of the Holy Spirit. If being faithful to the Magesterium makes me a member of a cult so be it. I am merely following my holy obligation as is speeled out in Canon Law. I will continue to follow the Holy Father and the Church Christ has given us. I will continue to keep you in my prayers. God’s peace.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

But the dissenters I know have concluded, positively, that
I don’t think all shallow-minded people are “quite nasty” as you stated in your reply. I think they’re fairly normal – they don’t want to take religion very seriously for various reasons. This is pretty much the classic dissenting mentality. Without real consideration of the historical, theological, philosophical or practical consequences – they just reject doctrines of the Church

I thought the reference to shallow-minded referred to dissenters so I’m unclear why I would be calling myself quite nasty. I take religion most seriously, more seriously than any other thing in my life other than my marriage. I am also well versed both historically and theologically regarding my church and her teachings. I was pushed hard by Catholic priests and sisters to read widely and deeply. They were unrelenting in their push to see that I learned to think adn read critically. I don’t reject anything from the church lightly I assure you. .

I’ve tried to discuss matters with such dissenters many times before and I’ve only rarely found any that wanted to take the time to actually study the question and provide a coherent reply.

I have met a few who were quite serious – all of them had personal reasons for their dissent (in fact, all were trying to defend their use of contraception or in one case, sterilization).

But there’s a blindness that I perceive (I’m not saying I am immune from that disorder myself) in them.

They cannot see how absurd it appears to see a person half-way embracing a Faith that makes serious demands on believers.

I can well understand their reluctance to talk with you regarding your reasoning. You are making every effort it seems to get them to leave the church. I can imagine the fear they have of one such as you if indeed you are all in the same parish. I don’t mean that meanly, but no one wants to become inbroiled in a church wide discussion of who is being “orthodox” according to your standards. Most people become motivated to investigate an issue because of some personal involvement with it. NOt always of course, and not in my case for sure. There is also a blindness of those who have a psychological need to perceive an institution as the answer to all of life. It certainly makes things neater I believe. I am glad you are aware that there might be a blindspot in your own view.

That is also absurd and an insult to the people who many many difficult sacrifices to embrace the Catholic Faith, over a long period of time, working through their doubts and questions.

Yes, I am “absorbed” with this issue because I see how much damage it does to the Church and to individuals (and families and society).

Now we get to the crux of the situation. It almost always comes down to: It’s not fair that they get to be Catholic when i have to work so hard and they just don’t and nobody seems to care. It reminds me of the story of the vineyard and the owner who paid all his workers the same even though some only worked a small part of the full day. In response to the lament of the the all day worker that it was not fair, the owner replied" Did you not get what you bargained for? Then what is it to you that I choose to do the same for everyone else?" I often smile when I read that, since I suspect God has much greater wisdom that we can have, and his plans of salvation may not be yours or mine.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I have no clue what episcopalians believe. I have never talked to one knowingly or read anything about their theology. I assume since it is a high church that it is in many ways similar to Catholicism. Other than that I have no clue.

Why do you wish to drive people from the Church? Are you afraid she is not up to the task of answering her questioning parishoners?

I don’t want to drive you from the church. I’m just curious, because for me, if I dissented on things like you do, I would feel bound in conscience to find another church.

I think basically Episcopalians have the sacraments (although seen in a more liberal way), a hierarchy (although not taken as seriously) and generally think much more liberally than catholics.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Truth is not the issue. The issue is your insistance that no one other than those who agree with you are entitled to call themselves Catholic. The “truth doesn’t require a majority vote” is a very old strawman on this forum. It would be well to try a better argument of facts rather than rhetoric

I never made any claim about who is or is not catholic. The church IS Truth. You refuse to believe that. I don’t need to argue ‘facts’ when I have the truth of the church.

Mores the pity that you cannot understand that such a position does not deny scripture in any manner but seeks to actually determine what it is.

And you call me uncharitable? How do you fit your head through the doorway?

Yes, when all else fails, cast aspersions on the clergy. They are wrong, and you are right.

No, only the church is right. Not you or me, only the church. You should let your ego get out of your way.

excellent, than you can stop the inuendo and uncharitible remarks and eyerolling I assume? I loving person certainly doesn’t express their love in that manner.

Telling someone who’s ideologies fly in the face of church teaching that they are wrong is not being uncharitable. Letting you persist in your ‘opinions’ against church teaching and pass that on to the uninformed is uncharitable.

 

[reggieM]

It reminds me of the story of the vineyard and the owner who paid all his workers the same even though some only worked a small part of the full day.

It reminds me of the story of the wheat and the tares. God allows them to grow together.

 

[MIZER]

Now we get to the crux of the situation. It almost always comes down to: It’s not fair that they get to be Catholic when i have to work so hard and they just don’t and nobody seems to care. It reminds me of the story of the vineyard and the owner who paid all his workers the same even though some only worked a small part of the full day. In response to the lament of the the all day worker that it was not fair, the owner replied" Did you not get what you bargained for? Then what is it to you that I choose to do the same for everyone else?" I often smile when I read that, since I suspect God has much greater wisdom that we can have, and his plans of salvation may not be yours or mine.

Spirit Meadow,

You make an excellent point and your use of the parable is perfect. I never thought of this. And I have taught my kids that the success or reward or good fortune of another doesn’t take anything away from us, so we shouldn’t be jealous, we should rejoice with them. But I never really thought to use this story. I will apply this to myself from both perspectives and will use it on the rare occassion I may counsel another. Very good.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I have no clue what episcopalians believe. I have never talked to one knowingly or read anything about their theology. I assume since it is a high church that it is in many ways similar to Catholicism. Other than that I have no clue.

Why do you wish to drive people from the Church? Are you afraid she is not up to the task of answering her questioning parishoners?

Do you stay because Jesus said we should all be one, and the Catholic church is the biggest denomination? And so you feel like everyone, regardless of what they believe (reformed, traditional, conservative, liberal, etc.) should just be in the same church?

I don’t want to drive you from the church. Do you want to drive creationists and the-bible-is-authored-by-God people from the church?

 

[AnotherChance]

Wow - I only read the OP and am not even going to bother with what weak justifications surely come after - I only wanted to applaud him for his post - he said what I’ve been wondering for ages!!

~Liza

I know, the OP is brilliant! Everyone should read it again. I’m glad this thread keeps going on and on and on, just so it stays at the top so people can read the OP. Kudos to those of you who have the patience to wade through all of these dissenters endless arguments! Haven’t heard the answer to the original question yet after over three hundred posts: Dissenters, why DO you call yourself a Catholic?

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

The only problem I have with your analysis is that we have no originals of any of the books. I might agree that the originals were “inspired” but I suspect we disagree as to what that means. I view inspired to mean that as to issues involving faith and morals, God protected the writer from error. The problem as I said, is that we don’t have the orginal, we have copies of copies of copies of copies. Moreover from our literally thousands of said copies, there are changes and differences. does this mean God changed his mind and had the newer copies “corrected”?

We do not believe that Genesis is a correct statement of how the universe and our planet was constructed. Moreover, we are aware that it is one of two stories about the creation and various redactors ultimately included both stories. Were both equally inspired though different? We suspect at least 4 authors of Genesis itself. There is no “original Genesis” either.

That is the failure of your analysis in my opinion. The Church well recognizes this. JPII in his Theology of the body goes through the genesis stories specifically and alludes that they are not factually true as science. Yet under your analysis, they must be. Such is not the understanding of the church in my opinion.

I believe you are accidently muddling interpretation of scripture with authenticity of scripture.

The Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit determines what Scripture was and was not (reference my cite of the CCC earlier.) Therefore regardless of the time it was originally written it was divinely inspired.

Divinely inspired does not equal literal interpretation. Both Genesis stories are divinely inspired both have purposes to bring the faithful closer to God. As those who love God we must stuggle to better understand the wisdom therein. See where I am driving? The profound impact of how one approaches scripture. In obedience with the assumption that it is divinely inspired means that Holy Providence has put these books for our use at this time in salvation history and there is something worthwhile here for us.

If understanding the human authors and who they were and the context of the times helps you to runderstand the wisdom within divinely inspired scripture, more power to you, but by Jesus’ promise to be a Good Shepherd and His promise to Peter, when the Church declared the Bible Holy Scripture I must under that Authority approach it with that metaphysical faith understanding.

Wisdom is eternal but men apply it to their times. As the link in my last post shows, I reject none of it and believe that it gives me a more authentic understanding of the world by studying it in the sense of faith and with what humility I can muster. This attitude is for me not reconcilable with determining for myself what is or is not inspired.

So we have lattitude in interpretation as a natural part of our growth to understand God and (hopefully) have the Church as a helpful teacher, but the authority of Scripture as divinely inspired seems to me to be a necessary dependency to be able to interpret it with eyes of faith in spirit and that is where the benefit of scripture is, for God is Spirit.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ender]

Blindly following is akin to Church worship and cultism in my opinion.

This argument displays a misunderstanding of the Church herself and her role in salvation. I wonder: does anyone think that accepting the teachings of Copernicus and Newton constitutes blind worship and cultism? Believing that we can decide for ourselves the morality of homosexual behavior is akin to believing we can decide for ourselves whether apples should fall down or fall up.

I believe the laity is fully led by the HS as well as the Magisterium.

It is statements like this that make people ask why you consider yourself Catholic as it constitutes a rejection of a tenet that is central to the Church’s view of herself.

*“the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted **exclusively **to the living teaching office of the Church” *(Dei verbum #10)

People are certainly justified in wondering how you can reject a claim that is so central to Catholicism and still believe you are Catholic - or that you would see any justification in remaining one. Clearly you do, but it is difficult to understand why.

I never have set myself above or even equal to such a body with such a history.

This seems more than a bit disingenuous. The Church has unambiguously defined homosexual actions as immoral. You disagree. That you choose your own interpretation over that of the Church means, for this issue at least, you have clearly set your understanding above the Church’s.

This does not negate my responsibility as a human being created by God to think, study and speak as I am motivated to.

This is true to a degree …

“It is not just that freedom is part of the act of faith: it is absolutely required.” (Fides et ratio #13)

… but not to the degree to which you have taken it.

“… the power to decide what is good and what is evil does not belong to man, but to God alone. … Freedom is not unlimited: it must halt before the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, for it is called to accept the moral law given by God. In fact, human freedom finds its authentic and complete fulfillment precisely in the acceptance of that law.” (VS #35)

Ender

 

[Napoli21]

Humility is the starting point to be Catholic. Genesis is the simplified version of what happened at creation. It wasn’t simplified for the people of several thousand years ago, but also for the people of today. We can not comprehend how or why God does anything. We know what is revealed by God- not everything, only what we need. We must trust Christ and the church He founded. We must trust the instruments Christ put in place to guide His church. We know the Magisterium is led by the Holy Spirit. If pride leads us to believe we know what is true and not the church, though we may believe we are following the Holy Spirit, odds are we are being led by Satan. Reread the 3rd chapter of Genesis, this fallen angel of light tells us today we can be like gods not just then. Most people do not support abortion, homosexual marriage or womans ordination to be evil. They support these issues out of misguided compassion. No matter how much we read or study if we begin to think we know more than the church, we are headed down the wrong path. Pride leads to sin which leads to death. Life is hard but Christ through His church has given the bible, Magisterium and Tradition to led us in the right direction. The road is narrow. Christ also gave us the sacraments to help us to stay on track or straighten us out if we get off track.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Every time I log into Catholic Answers and look at the “Social Justice” forum, I log off with my head shaking vigorously.

One caveat: this is not to say that NO discussion should be allowed. There are plenty of issues where the Church has NOT said the discussion is closed: the Iraq war (different undestandings of just war are out there), Global Warming (is it or isn’t it and what is/isn’t our response), the Death Penalty (when, if ever) and so on. I’m not talking about those issues. I just wanted to clarify that point.

As for me the Social Justice / War on Terror sections tend to be too much for me to stomach as a rule. Maybe staying out of those discussions might be beneficial.

Here is another solution. I think before a poster that alludes represents to being Catholic can post he/she should take a “Catholic” test. This Catholic test would be as designed as a sign of credibility as to just “how Catholic” someone is (a numerical score, a color code whatever). Everyone that says they are Catholic has to have it with their score prominately displayed by their name, for everyone to see. And your actual test will be available for all to see your answers at anytime. If at some time in the future, if you wish to retake the test, then you can at some time in the future. Personally, I think it could be a way Catholics could help pay for the website.

 

[Contarini]

Back to the topic of the thread, since you disagree on so many things, why aren’t you, for example, Episcopalian? What makes someone with Episcopalian beliefs choose to attend a Catholic church?

Agreement with the Episcopal Church over the Catholic Church on a few issues does not mean that someone has overall “Episcopalian beliefs.”

And in the second place, you are assuming a Protestant model for “choosing a Church.” In this model (not that all Protestants do this–I try not to, but I’m odd), one decides what one believes and then looks around for a church that fits those beliefs.

Perhaps the reason SpiritMeadow is Catholic is precisely that he/she does not agree with this approach to church membership?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

As for me the Social Justice / War on Terror sections tend to be too much for me to stomach as a rule. Maybe staying out of those discussions might be beneficial.

Here is another solution. I think before a poster that alludes represents to being Catholic can post he/she should take a “Catholic” test. This Catholic test would be as designed as a sign of credibility as to just “how Catholic” someone is (a numerical score, a color code whatever). Everyone that says they are Catholic has to have it with their score prominately displayed by their name, for everyone to see. And your actual test will be available for all to see your answers at anytime. If at some time in the future, if you wish to retake the test, then you can at some time in the future. Personally, I think it could be a way Catholics could help pay for the website.

And does Catholic Answers get to decide what counts as “Catholic”? I would hope that most Catholics would be very upset by such a proposal.

Edwin

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Agreement with the Episcopal Church over the Catholic Church on a few issues does not mean that someone has overall “Episcopalian beliefs.”

And in the second place, you are assuming a Protestant model for “choosing a Church.” In this model (not that all Protestants do this–I try not to, but I’m odd), one decides what one believes and then looks around for a church that fits those beliefs.

Perhaps the reason SpiritMeadow is Catholic is precisely that he/she does not agree with this approach to church membership?

Edwin

That’s interesting… that’s how I chose the Catholic Church… using the protestant model! Does that mean I’m not a real Catholic?

 

[reggieM]

I would hope that most Catholics would be very upset by such a proposal.

Why?