Dissenters: Why do you call yourself a Catholic?

[reggieM]

That’s a really good idea. On a catholic dating site I’ve used before, they have a list of 7 church teachings which you are asked to indicate that you accept or reject it. It helps understand who you’re talking to.

I agree that it’s a very good idea. Certainly for a Catholic dating site. People should be upfront about their beliefs and the title “Catholic” alone to be enough (sadly, it should be but we know it’s not).

That kind of clarity can actually help people change and grow to accept more of the Catholic Faith. But first they need to identify what they reject – and others should know that also.

 

[reggieM]

That’s loyal, faithful, honest, dissent. Get used to it.

Liberal Catholics and contraceptors are dying off (for reasons of nature and grace). Get used to it.

 

[reggieM]

I know many of these people, because my parish is full of them. They are faithful participants at Sunday Mass and in the sacramental life of the parish. With great loyalty they enroll their children in the parish school. With great devotion they support the church financially, temporally, musically, and materially. They just happen to dissent from the Vatican on the matter of artificial contraception, which they regard as a dangerous anachronism in a world of nearly seven billion people and declining resources. By and large, they are supported by their parish priests.

I don’t think you’re giving enough detail here for me to fully accept the evidence. Could you help with answers to these:

1. When you say your parish is “full of them” – roughly how many are you talking about? (What number and percent roughly).
2. How do you know that they dissent from the Church’s teaching on artificial contraception?
3. It appears that they all believe that the teaching is a “dangerous anachronism in a world of seven billion people, etc.” Have they all said this to you?

 

[reggieM]

IWow, just wow. I just cannot not believe in the Church. For two millenia She has consistently held up the gospel. It is too hard a thing this Good News. I must carry a cross and deny myself to be true to myself? The more I empty myself, the more I receive? God is Bread that I must eat, literally? God died–and for me personally and now wants to adopt me? Yet this startling message has been faithfully upheld. History bears out the truth of Christ’s promise to Peter. And the gospel and the saints are too consistent, too continually correct in their spirituality in surprising ways.

Without the promise of Christ, I do not see how such a counter intuitive message could have maintained such deep coherency as evidenced by the doctors of the Church. When churches fall from the Church, how quickly do they bend and wilt under the pressures of the age? These are signs of authority and lack thereof.

That was an excellen post. Thank you.

On what basis can a private individual declare that one book or another is or isn’t “divinely inspired”?

This is something that no Protestant can do – and none even try. What person looks at all the possible books in the Canon of Scripture and decides which are divinely inspired and which are not? To do that would be to make astonishing claims of personal-divine revelation and a sort of infallibility as well.

 

[DSF]

This is in response to post #1 by markomalley. There have been 400+ responses to your post, but I only wish to address yours. I want to thank you very much for your comments. I have been thinking the exact same things lately. It would be a wonderful blessing if all Catholics could agree and accept the Church’s teaching on the issues you mentioned. I see no need to dissent. We cannot pick and choose what we want to practice when it comes to the Faith. If the Vatican gave in to every change that society requested of it, it would cease to be The Catholic Church.
Thank you for having the courage to write about this subject and may God richly bless you.

 

[drpmjhess]

1. When you say your parish is “full of them” – roughly how many are you talking about? (What number and percent roughly).]

[2. How do you know that they dissent from the Church’s teaching on artificial contraception?]

[3. It appears that they all believe that the teaching is a “dangerous anachronism in a world of seven billion people, etc.” Have they all said this to you?

1, It’s a 400 family parish. Percentage unknown. Average family size is two children.

1. People talk.
2. Yes. They are very aware of the impending end of oil and gas, and how all of our agriculture is dependent on it, and that we are outstripping Earth’s ability to support an infinitely growing human population.
   [/quote]

 

[MIZER]

posted by drmijhess:

They are faithful participants at Sunday Mass and in the sacramental life of the parish. With great loyalty they enroll their children in the parish school. With great devotion they support the church financially, temporally, musically, and materially.

I would’t say they are “faithful” participants. They may have faith, but it is some lack of faith that allows dissent in the first place. I wouldn’t say they “loyally” enroll their children as it is some lack of loyaty in the church’s teaching body, that allows for rebelling against those teachings they wish to reject. I wouldn’t say that it is with “great devotion” that they support the church because it is very obviously a lack of devotion to the church in general that they willingly dissent and rebell against her.

I’m not saying that anyone who contracepts should be excomunicated. However, I don’t think people who contracept should be openly:

By and large,… supported by their parish priests

either. It is this denial of the truth that has so watered down the faith and it is what breeds the contention, division, and a host of attitudes and behaviors that are more characteristic of antichrist than of Christ.

These people are in sin. To some degree, and I don’t propse to be able to state what that degree is, they are in sin. And in as much as they present themselves for communion, they degrade the sacrament for every other member of their parish and the end result is a lessoning of the blessings that the parish at large might live in, if they were not a “contracepting parish”. This is what we all must get used to, if we all choose to stay in these particular parishes. That is a parish where the Priest essentially condones (either openly or silently), sin, and where the people, in general are contracepting and yet still have “some” faith, and perfidiously participate in Sunday Mass and in the sacramental life of the parish. With great disloyalty they enroll their children in PSR and in a spirit of infidelity, they materially support the church.

This describes my home parish. And it is very disheartening, it leads the young married couples into making grave mistakes in their marriages as they don’t have the support or the education they need to make the correct decisions (I’m talking about choosing to contracept through sterilization, for example) for the future health of thier marriage and frankly thier conscience and it means a loss of those people who wish to follow church teaching as they choose to go to other parishes where a more orthodox environment is available.

My point is that the liberal mindset does not “build up” the body of Christ. It weakens it and ultimately it tears it down. This is a serious problem and we need Priests who are willing to stand up to it, face it, and fight against it. We need parishoners who are willing to recognize contraception for the sin that it is and then pray together, to erradicate it, not just, “get used to it” as some on this board have suggested we all must do. That is wrong. We should not “get used to sin.” Sin leads us all to make shipwrec of the faith and that is what is happening, in American Parishes, at large. It is very sad.

 

[reggieM]

Excellent post, MIZER – I fully agree.

 

[MIZER]

Going back to the OP,

Mark,

I think you have gotten the answer to your original question. Dissenter’s remain in the church because they can. In fact, in many cases it is possible to find a priest, followed by whole congregations which condone (either silently or openly) whatever their particular sin of choice is.

I think your sidebar is really the most interesting point to be considered.

(And, as a sidebar, I would love to hear from one of the moderators why endless discussions are permitted on subjects where the Church has basically said the discussion is over. I don’t see how this advances Catholicism in any way)

I don’t expect the moderator to stop the discussions on the forum. This is a good place to have discussions of all kinds and we should certainly be allowed to debate church teaching.

My question would be to the priest’s and the Bishops in this country. Why do they allow the dissent to go unmentioned or even supported, in the local churches, the parishes?

Every Confirmed Catholic is called by God to be obedient to the teachings of HIS Church. To dissent, either mentally or corporally is to sin. That’s it. Catholics are called by God to holiness. It is not a matter of simply saying we must accept the fact that there are dissenter’s in the church, we already have. We all sin. We know Christ came to save the sinner’s not the righteous. Christ also said, however, “…go and sin no more.” The real question is then, why does the hierarchy of the Church, sarting with the Bishops and going all the way to the magesterium of the Church, tolerate the onging sin of the clergy (the priest’s), in their own dissension, in as much as they fail to properly instruct the people?

I will use my own parish priest as an example. He doesn’t want to lose parishoners, so he says. So, he never gives a sermon. Every week we hear, essentially, the exact same homily. It centers on “going out into the world and living out our faith.” He never instructs us from the pulpit, however, what that faith should look like other than chartible acts and donations. He’s been at our parish for five years now and he has never given a sermon on any of the issues which people most often dissent from church teaching on. We haven’t heard a word about contraception, abortion, reproductive technology, homosexuality, the short or absent line at confession, fornication, out of wedlock procreation…the list is truely endless. So beginning with the priest’s lack of intruction from the pupit, every educational venue in our parish is also, tainted. I was fired as a chatechist, for teaching a Biblical definition for the words modesty and chastity to seventh graders. That’s 13 year olds. The A.R.E. called my lesson sex education and I hadn’t sent the appropriate paperwork to the parents (who were no doubt offended that someone might teach their 13 year olds that chastity is a virtue for the married as well as for the unmarried and that their is an appropriate way to present ourselves, especially for Mass) and so, she “let me go”. At the “mother’s group” meetings, the women sit around and joke about their preferred method of contraception and I sat in on an adult education class on social issues and the priest himself stated that artificial reproduction was gray area and up to each individual to decide. That statement was made for the benefit of one of the women in the group who was, at the time, undergoing in-vitro fertilization. I tried to argue with the priest, who was “teaching” the class, and I pointed to evangellium vitae, and humana vitae, but to no avail. I was rudely shut down.

The interesting thing to keep in mind is that we have a regular exodus of families, leaving our parish to go elsewhere because they want their children raised in orthodox catholicism. So they may teach their children at home (which is what I do) or they drive 30,40,50 miles away to attend a different parish.

 

[MIZER]

So, to the question "why do the dissenters stay, the only answer can be that they stay because they can. They wish to stay in sin and they can pretend to be Catholic (which is, one who seeks holiness, one who seeks to be chistian, ie: christlike), and because no one (including the parish priest) challanges them to erradicate the sin in their life, they become comfortable in it. So their is no need for them to leave. The one’s who have to leave are the one’s who wish to PRACTICE catholicism with others who wish to PRACTICE catholicism.

So we see, there is a difference between the parishes. The dissenter’s call themselves catholic and they go to what is called a Catholic Church but they aren’t really PRACTICING Catholics. One must go to a Parish where there are Orthodox Catholic priests if one want’s to truely PRACTICE the true faith with other’s who are PRACTICING the true faith. Those orthodox parishes are sometimes hard to find and/or hard to get to. So, many of us, who wish to attend a Catholic Mass every Sunday or even daily Mass, must self educate ourselves and our children and suffer the parish we have.

I have no doubt the dissenter’s, including the Priest’s and Bishop’s who dissent, will be responsible for yet another break in the church. And we will have a clear liberal or progressive branch versus an orthodox or conservative branch, in Roman Catholicism. Very sad.

 

[MIZER]

Thanks Reggie M.

I come to Catholic Answers because I find support and encouragement here for my orthodoxy in faith. Something I don’t get at church.

Rather pathetic, don’t you think?

March on, in Christ.

Helen

 

[Ender]

I am not advocating that everyone decide for themselves, I am advocating that everyone is responsible for a full investigation of such claims if they do not sit well as given.

These two statements make no sense: if I am responsible for making a full investigation of those things with which I struggle what am I to do if I can’t reconcile myself with Catholic doctrine? How can I not decide for myself what to choose? That’s what you have done and you clearly think it is appropriate; how can you not recommend that we all do the same? Surely you’re not the only one who gets to decide for himself which of the Church’s moral laws he should follow and which he can disregard.

I said that I do not find the scriptural evidence against homosexuality convincing.

How very Protestant of you. Catholicism, however, is based on scripture, tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church, the latter two which you completely dismiss.

In any case, i am not acting in any manner contrary to church teaching, only expressing an opinion.

(CCC1868) *Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
…

• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them*;

Inasmuch as you encourage others to reject the Church’s teachings when they cannot personally agree with them you contribute to the sins they may commit, and for this you bear responsibility.

Ender

 

[MIZER]

(CCC1868) Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
…

• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

Inasmuch as you encourage others to reject the Church’s teachings when they cannot personally agree with them you contribute to the sins they may commit, and for this you bear responsibility.

Ender

Yes, this is it exactly. Thank you Ender for including the CCC. We are not saying (at least I’m not), that one should leave the church if one is willing to accept, that to dissent knowingly and willfully, is to sin. And one is called by God, as a Catholic, to “sin no more.” So, if you are going to insist that you are Catholic, then you must seek to “sin no more” in what ever way you can. That may mean more education, that may mean frequent confession and prayer, that may mean just doing or thinking something different, even though it may go against your internal grain, to do or to think so. The behavior drags the feeling (Dr. Laura Schlessinger). Many times if we behave (or even think) in a certain way, out of moral obligation, then the feeling comes along at a latter time and we can behave and think in a certain way, at that time, because we feel like it.

So to Spirit Meadow who thinks the church has it wrong on homosexuality. You, and other’s who share your mindset, you all should state that this or that is a teaching you struggle with. You should not state that the Catholic Church is wrong on any definitive teaching. She is not. Rather you struggle with the truth.

The onus is on you, if you are going to continue to claim your Catholicity (and if you wish to be taken seriously, and not bring scandal on the Church), to study, to pray, to go to confession frequently, to do everything you can do, to reconcile your thought process to church teaching, which we can trust, is true. If you trust in Christ. If you are truly Catholic then this is what you will do.

To insist that you believe the Church is wrong, is to lead others into your sin of dissent. That too is sinful and you merely succeed in compounding and increasing the gravity of your own state of sinfulness. When you present yourself for holy Communion in this state, then you commit a very grave sin indeed which is to fail, “to discern the body of Christ.” (Can someone offer the scripture verse for this? I don’t have time to look it up. It has to do with not receiving unworthily. Corinthians, I think.)

At any rate, our salvation, as Catholics, is a process. It is not a done deal as long as we willfully persist in our sinfulness. (Otherwise why would Christ have said, “…sin no more.”?

For most of us, this means our whole life on this planet and, no doubt, some stint in pergatory, is spent in this process. We struggle with that which we don’t yet believe, about either Christ or His Body, which is the true Church.

I have always found frequent confession and the reception of the Eucharist followed by the prayer, “Dear Lord I believe, help me with my unbelief. I beg your mercy as I am a sinner, if you will, Father, grant me the Grace of fortitude and discernment in my struggle.” to be very effective. You may name the struggle directly or just rely on God’s knowledge of you, as HIS child. He knows what our struggles are. Spirit Meadow and others who share her mindset, may do well to try it. I for one, as a Catholic sister in Christ, would appreciate it, if she/they would.

 

[MIZER]

Everyone, I do not have time to look at every post to make sure I haven’t mis-represented Spirit Meadow when I said she believes the church is wrong on Homosexuality.

Spirit Meadow, if I have misrepresented you, I appologize. I hope you will allow some latitude as I was making my point and I realize now that I shouldn’t have used your name specifically. Sorry.

The big picture is that we are all sinners. Willful and open dissent is just one of many and Spirit Meadow and other’s on this board have been willing to put it out there, so to speak. For the sake of the discussion I thank her/them for that and want her/them to know that I judge her/them, NOT.

I admit to being gravely flawed myself and do not hold myself up as some kind of saint. I have many struggles.

 

[LRThunder]

You have a choice: you will either have to reinstate widespread excommunication to get rid of the 85% of American Catholics who dissent from the Vatican on the matter of the morality of so-called “articificial” contraception, or get used to living with this dissent, which will never go away.

I know many of these people, because my parish is full of them. They are faithful participants at Sunday Mass and in the sacramental life of the parish. With great loyalty they enroll their children in the parish school. With great devotion they support the church financially, temporally, musically, and materially. They just happen to dissent from the Vatican on the matter of artificial contraception, which they regard as a dangerous anachronism in a world of nearly seven billion people and declining resources. By and large, they are supported by their parish priests.

That’s loyal, faithful, honest, dissent. Get used to it.

Then maybe it’s time to reinstate the widespread excommunication…purge the Church of the wolves pretending to be sheep and make sure that authentic, orthodox education is instilled so that the laity can understand Church teachings (of course that in of itself won’t stop dissent).

 

[LRThunder]

Look at it this way. Let’s say a father tells his son to clean his room and his son says no. What should the father do? A) Allow his son to dissent against his authority because his son is, along other times loyal and faithful and loving to the father B) Discipline the son for disobedience and take measures to ensure the disobedience never happens again).

Take a look at God and Israel as well in the Old Testament. As long as Israel stayed faithful to God and obedient to his commands, they prospered. But every time they strayed, he has had to send consequences for their disobedience.

I say it again…loyal and faithful dissent is an oxymoron. If one claims to be Catholic, then they must be faithful and obedient to the Church teachings. If they can’t do that, then they should probably stop calling themselves Catholic.

 

[JenniferMoon]

Mizer, Your second to last post.

If I disagree with the church, the blame falls on ME. It was through prayer, penance, and asking God to help me believe and understand, and to lead me to the people who can show me the truth that I was able, with deep humility, embrace ALL of the teachings of the Church. That doesn’t mean I don’t sin or don’t sometimes (often!) fail to do what is required of me, but I willingly admit it is NOT the Church who is at fault. It is all my own fault and it is MY responsibility to grow ever more nearer (baby steps) to perfect obedience.

 

[drpmjhess]

Then maybe it’s time to reinstate the widespread excommunication…purge the Church of the wolves pretending to be sheep and make sure that authentic, orthodox education is instilled so that the laity can understand Church teachings (of course that in of itself won’t stop dissent).

That may be what the Church will have to do – excommunicate the 85% of the US Catholic population who unapologetically practice so-called “artificial” contraception, and along with them all the priests who fail to preach against this practice. We’d end up with a much smaller, if “purer,” Church.

Petrus

 

[Ender]

That may be what the Church will have to do – excommunicate the 85% of the US Catholic population who unapologetically practice so-called “artificial” contraception, and along with them all the priests who fail to preach against this practice. We’d end up with a much smaller, if “purer,” Church.

Petrus

No, but it would be nice if priests and bishops acted as if they believed the teaching themselves, then maybe more of the people in the pews might take it seriously as well.

The 85% are those who believe that dissent from Church teaching is acceptable and that they are justified in following their own consciences.

Note to Spirit Meadow: this is the kind of thinking you support and this is the result of that approach. If you are justified in dissenting on one thing then we are all justified in dissenting on everything.

Ender

 

[MIZER]

drpmijhess,

About the contracepting couples in your parish, you state:

1. Yes. They are very aware of the impending end of oil and gas, and how all of our agriculture is dependent on it, and that we are outstripping Earth’s ability to support an infinitely growing human population.

I sincerely doubt this is true. I doubt the your fellow parishoners use contraceptives because they wish to save the world from overpopulation based on future oil shortages. Please.

People contracept because they are inherantly selfish, short on patience, personal finances, lazy, seek convenience in thier lives, are married to non-catholics, etc. etc. etc…

God will provide other forms of energy when the oil runs out, if the that happens before the 2nd coming. In America alone we haven’t even begun to access the oil we have because of supposed environmental concerns. We have a very long way to go before “the oil runs out” and I have never heard any contracepting catholic say they were limiting their families size, artificiallly, because "we are running out of oil. Let’s be real here.